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Markie_Boy
Guest
Church Militant - I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut - thank you! I am learning a lot here.
MERGED: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" and Mary and Joseph worship
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Greetings, friend!
The Mass is entirely scriptural:
agapebiblestudy.com/charts/liturgy%20of%20the%20mass%20in%20the%20book%20of%20revelation.htm
And here is a very interesting fulfilled prophesy to ponder:
There is only one worldwide church having masses every single day, with incense and a pure offering.
Pax
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PRmerger
Guest
Firstly, if it’s true, as you say, that “the truth is usually simple” (indicating that Catholicism complicates the kerygma), then why is the Baptist service longer than the Catholic Mass?
One would think, if your assertion is true, that the Baptist pastor would simply say a few words of truth and all the congregation would be fed…and it would be over in a few minutes.
Does that not seem to be the logical conclusion of your assertion?
In fact, what you seem to be saying is that Baptists are the ones who are complicating the truth, since their service is longer, no?
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PRmerger
Guest
Less in depth Scripturally?
Are you not aware that almost everything we say, from the Greeting (“In the Name of the Father…”–Matthew 28:19)
to the Concluding Rite (“Thanks be to God!”–2 Cor 9:15)
comes from Scripture?
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JewishCatholic
Guest
I see. So no C.S. Lewis. Nor any of the Eastern / Coptic saints. Nor the Cappadocians. I am very partial to Gregory of Nyssa and Macrina and was sincerely hoping to see them in heaven.
Nor I guess Martin Luther King, nor will we see George Frideric Handel conducting the ‘Hallelujah Chorus’… nor will we have the honor of seeing John Donne nor the wonderful mystic Evelyn Underhill. I’m sure that Dietrich Bonhoeffer will be sad he is not with our Lord. Composer John Tavener recently died and his music is sung in many churches; I understand he was a devout and holy man.
No Elijah,Elisha, and Moses. Or King David. No Joseph and Mary. Not even our lord and savior Jesus Christ as he was Jewish.
How very sad to hear this news.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yeah…I think Juris was overstating the teaching a bit.
We can never say “NO CS Lewis, MLK, Gregory of Nyssa…etc etc etc”.
We can only say that IF they are in heaven, it is because of Christ and His Body.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Yeah, I think I can suggest something that would really help Markie out and correct his thinking on this.
Get a copy of A Biblical Walk Through the Mass by Dr. Edward Sri. I took the 10 week series study in our parish and it was absolutely brilliant. I urge you to get it and read and study it with your Bible open and then come back and talk to us. I guarantee it will much better inform your opinion and make Mass mean more than you have ever imagined possible. It will create in you a very powerful sense of scriptural worship from now on.
Please get a copy ASAP.
Brother I sure hope so. It’s why CAF exists. Let me know if you need anything.:irish2:
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punisherthunder
Guest
Asked my parish priest about this as well as the concept of “Massa Damnata”. He told me that is was all 100% true.
When I asked about those who aren’t Catholic, be it willingly or unwillingly, he told me the only thing we can do “is have hope for them”.
When I asked about those who aren’t Catholic, be it willingly or unwillingly, he told me the only thing we can do “is have hope for them”.
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PRmerger
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Gorgias
Guest
You mean, I assume, that it’s true that Augustine taught the ‘massa damnata’, not that the idea itself is true… right?
This isn’t as bleak as you seem to make it out to be.
We’re talking “Christian hope” here, not “I hope it doesn’t rain on our picnic tomorrow”! Christian hope means we have faith in Christ, and although we can’t see it, we know His salvation for us is real. So, although we don’t know the mechanism by which non-Christians are saved, we know (“hope”) that God takes them to Himself, if (through no fault of their own) they haven’t been able to receive and accept Christ, but have done all they can to live lives according to God’s plan.
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steve_b
Guest
Just a few thoughts
“can go to heaven” ≠ will go to heaven. Just like it can rain doesn’t mean it will rain.
Re:[846 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 846) , a reference in that wiki article
(all emphasis mine)
Some qualifiers
If a baptized Catholic leaves the Catholic Church, If they “know” what 846 (the Church) teaches, thus knows what scripture and Tradition teaches, and what faith and baptism means, thus they are NOT ignorant of the truth, (ignorance isn’t always innocent [1791 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1791) ) then that passage describes the consequence of their choice.
If a non Catholic sees the truth of the Catholic Church, and instead of entering, chooses to remains outside, then that passage shows the consequence of that choice
ALSO
(all emphasis mine)
[837 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 837)* "*Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, i.e. are baptized AND
- Acccept all the means of salvation given to the Church
- together with her entire organization,
- and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion –
- are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.
- Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church,** but** ‘in body’ not ‘in heart’
An analogy: The parable of the prodigal son
- Is this son still a part of his family even though he left it? Yes.
- Will he always be his father’s son even if he remains away? yes
- But what did his father say while his son was away, separated from him and the family?
- “This son of mine was DEAD**, and is come to life again: was lost, and is found.**” Luke 15:11-24 .
- So looking at this in the big picture, had the son not returned home, and instead stayed away, knowing what he knows about his father and family, he would have died lost, i.e. in the context we’re using this, he would not have been saved [846 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 846) , [837 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 837)
- iow in context we’re using it, (not saved) = hell***
And Jesus is telling the story
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Markie_Boy
Guest
Former protestant - possible Catholic here. There is a lot to take in from the Catholic Church, and I am learning to look at things thru different lenses.
At first it seems like it asks more than “simple” protestant churches, but as I am learning, it also seems at the same time more loving and forgiving.
My $0.02 for the day.
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PopePiusXIISupp
Guest
I shared a picture and on it read “Catholics do not believe anyone not catholic is damned” so a argument started and these quotes got pulled up,
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” – (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11: Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442).
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” – (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, November 18, 1302).
“Where the necessity of salvation is concerned all the faithful of Christ must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as we are taught by Holy Scripture, the testimony of the holy fathers, and by that constitution of our predecessor of happy memory, Boniface VIII, which begins Unam Sanctam, we therefore, with the approval of the present sacred council, for the salvation of the souls of the same faithful, for the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff and of this holy see, and for the unity and power of the church, his spouse, renew and give our approval to that constitution.” (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, December 19, 1516).
“For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” – (Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, December 9, 1854).
and this about Mary and Joseph worship. Mary and Joseph are worshipped - in the true sense of the word. They hold special designations: Protodulia and Hyperdulia. Even the CCC says that homage given to them is integrated in our giving worship.
This is what I take of the Mary and Joseph worship That is to say, the hyperdulia given to the Mother of God is an entirely different class of veneration. Infinitely less than the latria given to God, but also infinitely more than the dulia given to any Saint (in fact, I have heard hyperdulia described as infinitely more than all the other saints put together!)
Joseph, on the other hand, still recieves dulia, the veneration he recieves is not a seperate class of worship/veneration like hyperdulia. It’s just that he recieves the highest, he has the greatest precedence among those that recieve just dulia, thus the term proto-dulia can be applied to him. But it’s still dulia, just the highest dulia. St. Michael, often being seen as the highest after Mary and St. Joseph…could by this method be said to recieve deutero-dulia, etc…
And on the No salvation outside of the Catholic church is that it is not a dogma. Am I right and is No salvation outside of the Catholic church a dogma and the Proto and Hyper dulia part am I right and are they worshiped. Thanks and Pax Vobiscum!
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” – (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11: Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442).
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” – (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, November 18, 1302).
“Where the necessity of salvation is concerned all the faithful of Christ must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as we are taught by Holy Scripture, the testimony of the holy fathers, and by that constitution of our predecessor of happy memory, Boniface VIII, which begins Unam Sanctam, we therefore, with the approval of the present sacred council, for the salvation of the souls of the same faithful, for the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff and of this holy see, and for the unity and power of the church, his spouse, renew and give our approval to that constitution.” (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, December 19, 1516).
“For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” – (Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, December 9, 1854).
and this about Mary and Joseph worship. Mary and Joseph are worshipped - in the true sense of the word. They hold special designations: Protodulia and Hyperdulia. Even the CCC says that homage given to them is integrated in our giving worship.
This is what I take of the Mary and Joseph worship That is to say, the hyperdulia given to the Mother of God is an entirely different class of veneration. Infinitely less than the latria given to God, but also infinitely more than the dulia given to any Saint (in fact, I have heard hyperdulia described as infinitely more than all the other saints put together!)
Joseph, on the other hand, still recieves dulia, the veneration he recieves is not a seperate class of worship/veneration like hyperdulia. It’s just that he recieves the highest, he has the greatest precedence among those that recieve just dulia, thus the term proto-dulia can be applied to him. But it’s still dulia, just the highest dulia. St. Michael, often being seen as the highest after Mary and St. Joseph…could by this method be said to recieve deutero-dulia, etc…
And on the No salvation outside of the Catholic church is that it is not a dogma. Am I right and is No salvation outside of the Catholic church a dogma and the Proto and Hyper dulia part am I right and are they worshiped. Thanks and Pax Vobiscum!
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PopePiusXIISupp
Guest
Correction “No salvation outside of the catholic church” is dogma
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
If people are drawing on the Scriptures given through the early Church and major chunks of the traditions of Jesus and the Apostles, they are to that extent close to the Catholic Church.
I think that if those people are urged to put into practice I Cor 12, Eph 4, the parable of the talents, the last 21 verses of Proverbs (which is not about stay at home wives), and not stunting the growth of the widows and orphans, and ignore what anyone else does at statues of St Joseph, they will become more open to what is the true Church.
That might make it more likely for them to “receive … recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier”.
A head-on approach is not in my opinion going to distract them from any of their hobby horses.
Incidentally later authoritative statements on a subject are often far better to rely on in general discussions. I think the CCC is fairly good on this subject.
Our Father said for you and them.
I think that if those people are urged to put into practice I Cor 12, Eph 4, the parable of the talents, the last 21 verses of Proverbs (which is not about stay at home wives), and not stunting the growth of the widows and orphans, and ignore what anyone else does at statues of St Joseph, they will become more open to what is the true Church.
That might make it more likely for them to “receive … recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier”.
A head-on approach is not in my opinion going to distract them from any of their hobby horses.
Incidentally later authoritative statements on a subject are often far better to rely on in general discussions. I think the CCC is fairly good on this subject.
Our Father said for you and them.
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HelenRose
Guest
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petra22
Guest
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punisherthunder
Guest
I didn’t specifiy about Massa Damnata, I just brought up the term and he stopped me and said it was “all true”.
I wasn’t coming from a bleak angle. I had been engaging myself in conversation with a series of atheists/Protestants on Youtube about Massa Damnata and Nulla Salus. I happened to be counseling with my priest on another matter when I had the opportunity to ask him that question. I trust him fully. After serving as a parish priest here in town, he studied at the Vatican for another 5 years before coming back to town. In my own person, I trust his answer. Sorry if it puts you out.
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Gorgias
Guest
Again, did he mean that the “massa damnata” theory was ‘all true’, or simply that it was all true that Augustine believed in it?
It doesn’t “put me out.” But, if he believes – as Augustine did – that humanity is a “massa damnata”, then he believes something at odds with Church teaching. (That’s why I’m hoping that what you mean is simply that it’s true that Augustine held that belief.)
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punisherthunder
Guest
Again, did he mean that the “massa damnata” theory was ‘all true’, or simply that it was all true that Augustine believed in it?
It doesn’t “put me out.” But, if he believes – as Augustine did – that humanity is a “massa damnata”, then he believes something at odds with Church teaching. (That’s why I’m hoping that what you mean is simply that it’s true that Augustine held that belief.)
- From what I can infer, he simply believes that it was true. Augustine wasn’t mentioned at all. I was more concerned with Nulla Salus.
- With Nulla Salus he referenced previous declarations by both saints and former Popes alike in saying it is a sound doctrine that the Church supports. I asked him about “nice people and other faiths”. He said that “all we can do is hope”.
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