MERGED: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" and Mary and Joseph worship

[JurisPrudens]

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that** it is absolutely necessary for salvation** that every human creature be **submit **to the Roman Pontiff

UUNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302

Is that what the the Roman Catholic Church teaches today?

Are these the same teachings?

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that** all those who are outside the Catholic Church**, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics,** cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels**, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives;
that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441,

compared to

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day’ " (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994, p.223)

Absolutely true. There is no contradiction. Everyone is supposed to be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved. And, being such, to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. However, one can be a member of the Catholic Church, without even knowing it.

 

[alwayswill]

The context, intent and meaning of this line has already been discussed with you at length in a few threads… and yet, you still prefer to use it as a bludgeon. :sad_yes:
…

.

No : quoting Scripture is never hate speech to anyone (especially to Christians!)
and quoting a Papal Bull to Catholics cannot not bludgeon to Catholics: right?

 

[Della]

No : quoting Scripture is never hate speech to anyone (especially to Christians!)
and quoting a Papal Bull to Catholics cannot not bludgeon to Catholics: right?

It can be if it either is cherry picked out of scriptural and historical context. It’s done all the time, sad to say.

 

[KEP1983]

I know that the Church now teaches that pagans, Jews, Protestants, anybody really, can go to Heaven if they live good lives.

Actually, the Church doesn’t teach that. Pope Benedict just came out of his silence in the past week or so to argue against this attitude among catholics today. It’s a popular attitude, but actually not taught by the Church.

You absolutely cannot perform enough good works to impress god enough to make him open the gates of heaven for you. That’s a heresy called Pelagianism.

Here’s pope benedict talking about this issue, which he called a crisis: lifesitenews.com/news/pope-emeritus-benedict-says-church-is-now-facing-a-two-sided-deep-crisis

To put it simply, you have to cooperate with the grace God gives you in order to be saved. He only holds you accountable for the graces you’ve received. If he gives you the grace to know the church is true and you reject it, you commit a mortal sin and go to hell. If you purposely avoid searching the truth so that you won’t find out the catholic church is true, you’re vincibly ignorant and still responsible for your rejection of Christ’s body, the Church. Whether you give a billion dollars to lepers or not is irrelevant. You can’t have unrepentant mortal sin on your soul and go to heaven.

The only other option is that a person is invincibly ignorant. They’ve cooperates with the graces they’ve been given, but never were given the opportunity and graces to visibly enter into the church. They still cooperated with the graces they were given. These people who die in a state of Invincible Ignorance can be saved. Can be. Doesn’t mean will be.

So the question comes down to vincible vs invincible ignorance. Those who die in a state of outright knowing rejection of the Church or die in a state of vincible ignorance will be damned. Those who die in a state of Invincible Ignorance may still be saved, if they otherwise cooperated with the other graces they were given and don’t have unrepentant mortal sin.

Look up CCC 1790-93.

 

[johnnyc176]

I would really appreciate some help with this. Thanks and God bless.

What a wise priest once told me…

You don’t have to be Catholic to get to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

 

[pianistclare]

No : quoting Scripture is never hate speech to anyone (especially to Christians!)
and quoting a Papal Bull to Catholics cannot not bludgeon to Catholics: right?

Oh please. You are preaching to well catechized Catholics.
You are mistaken.
End of story.
These threads that are based on inaccurate info and things cherry picked to tear down and divide are not beneficial of any Christian.
I pray that you will be open to hearing the TRUTH.

 

[boomerang]

I am not looking for salvation in a denomination, or for one to be perfect - as I have yet to find one. Christ is perfect, and his perfect sacrifice is where my faith is.

One must realize that Jesus gave authority over the body of Christian believers to Peter alone. Peter has the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and the power of binding and loosing over the flock. What does a key do? It* locks and unlocks* something, in this case heaven. Peter’s authority was handed to the Bishops of Rome, down to this day. The Pope has the authority to unlock Heaven for the faithful. Christianity was never meant to be a do-it-yourself religion. We are meant to be under authority. If you deliberately place yourself outside of this authority, your salvation becomes murky. They say purgatory is filled with Protestants.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Here is a section from Apologetics & Catholic Doctrine written by Archbishop Michael Sheehan, imprimatur by Cardinal George Pell in 2008.

Since the coming of Our Saviour, God commands all men to be members of His Church. Those who deliberately disobey Him will be lost eternally. But, since He condemns no man except for a grave fault, He will not condemn those who through inculpable ignorance are unaware of His precept, who serve Him faithfully according to their conscience, who have a sincere desire to do His will and, therefore, implicitly, the desire to become members of His Church. The ancient phrase, “Outside the Church there is no salvation”, was addressed to those already in the Church, lest they be tempted to join heretical bodies or abandon the faith. It was not a statement that all non-Catholics were condemned. …

Let us consider the following cases: … (2) A heathen has never heard the name of Christ. He obeys the natural law according to his lights. He dies a heathen, to all appearances. The Divine Mercy will not suffer such a man to be lost. It is a recognized principle that God, because He wills that all be saved, does not deny grace to him who does his best. He will infallibly give him who is faithful to the natural law sufficient illumination and aid to enable him to make the acts of faith and charity necessary for salvation. The act of charity includes the desire of full compliance with the Divine Will; it includes, therefore, the desire of baptism. In the view of the fact that the Church stands plainly before the eyes of men like a city on a mountain-top, that the words of her ministers have gone forth to the ends of the earth, we speak only of those who have truly remained ignorant of Jesus Christ and His Church. For those deprived of the abundant graces at the disposal of those who belong to the visible membership of the Church, salvation is not easy. (3) Children who die unbaptized are, according to the common teaching, admitted to a state of natural, but not supernatural, happiness. The Church has never said that they are sent to a place of suffering. [applicable to innocent, unbaptized adults as well.]

Here is another quote from the Baltimore Catechism dealing with the salvation of Protestants.

If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it. …

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never - even in the past - had the slightest doubt of that fact - what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister - not being a true priest - has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? … It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.
…
I said I give you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.

My apologies for quoting huge chunks of text. This teaching is sometimes so misunderstood by both Catholics & non-Catholics that I thought it would be helpful to quote these two helpful resources.

 

[Della]

The teaching of the Church is telling us about the grace and mercy of God. It’s not a “get out of hell free” card or anything of the sort. Boiled down it means that we cannot judge who will be saved and who won’t–that is entirely up to God. But, we can define who may have a chance of salvation more than others. In a nutshell, that is what this teaching is talking about.

 

[TwoNames]

If I understand this DOGMA correctly. (correct me if I am wrong) If a muslim or anyone gets to heaven, he/she is saved through the Church, (yes by Jesus’ Holy Sacrifice, just to be clear). If someone doesn’t join the Church because of not knowing the Church, he/she can still be a part of the Church in a mystical way, by the grace of God. Otherwise there would be no salvation for that person. In heaven there are only Catholics though. If a protestant goes to heaven, he ceases to be a protestant, same for muslims and so on.

Also dogmas cannot change, Dogmas can be further explained.

 

[TruthSeeker319]

Thanks for your reply, but I have no intention of leaving the the Church of Christ. I wouldn’t deprive myself of the Eucharist for anything in the world. Just trying to get my head around this one particular issue.

:thumbsup: Bless your heart! What a beautiful answer! I wish more Catholics shared your view!

 

[Ron_Conte]

Pope Saint John Paul II
All Salvation Comes through Christ
General Audience – May 31, 1995
catechism.cc/articles/All-Salvation-Comes-through-Christ.htm

"However, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, the gift of salvation cannot be limited “to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.” "

“as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her.”

 

[PRmerger]

Most don’t expect perfection, unless you claim you are infallible.

This demonstrates an impoverished understanding of infallibility.

One need not be perfect to be protected from erring in the areas of faith and morals.

Just like Peter was not perfect, yet even you, Markie, I presume, believe he was infallible, yes? Unless you propose to know what errors he wrote in these 2 encyclicals:

usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm#1 Peter
usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm#2 Peter

 

[PRmerger]

Teaching of Jesus was not complicated and long. The truth is usually simple.

One has to wonder if you attend Christian services anywhere? If so, how long does your pastor preach?



I would think that if one obtained a copy of this minister’s preaching notes, it would be enough to make a tome, yeah?

If the CC would actually admit when it made a mistake, it would gain a lot of credibility. Most don’t expect perfection, unless you claim you are infallible.

And just so you know, the CC does not claim perfection. In fact, she asserts this:

825 "The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect." In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: “Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect.”

 

[PRmerger]

No : quoting Scripture is never hate speech to anyone (especially to Christians!)
and quoting a Papal Bull to Catholics cannot not bludgeon to Catholics: right?

EENS seems to be an area of interest for you, as I see you have posted on it twice in different threads.

I am curious–do you believe in the Christian concept that without Christ you cannot be saved?

 

[alwayswill]

EENS seems to be an area of interest for you, as I see you have posted on it twice in different threads.

I am curious–do you believe in the Christian concept that without Christ you cannot be not exactly EENS
but outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation
absolutely I believe that without Christ you cannot be saved

 

[PRmerger]

exactly EENS
but outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation
absolutely I believe that without Christ you cannot be saved

So I think you should just put yourself in the place of a good, say, Jewish person.

You feel exactly like the Jew feels when you tell him that he cannot be saved without Christ, when we tell you that you cannot be saved without the Catholic Church.

 

[Gorgias]

PRmerger;13799852:

not exactly EENS
but outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation

Umm… ‘EENS’ – that is, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” – is exactly what “outside the [Catholic] Church there is no salvation” means!

absolutely I believe that without Christ you cannot be saved

Then you understand EENS. The only additional thing that EENS adds is “without Christ and the Church He founded there is no salvation”. That’s all it’s saying…!

 

[Church_Militant]

So Markie, did we answer your issues?

 

[Markie_Boy]

One has to wonder if you attend Christian services anywhere? If so, how long does your pastor preach?



I would think that if one obtained a copy of this minister’s preaching notes, it would be enough to make a tome, yeah?

And just so you know, the CC does not claim perfection. In fact, she asserts this:

825 "The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect." In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: “Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect.”

I attend mass weekly with my family, and have been to a Baptist church quite a bit. The mass is usually shorter and less in depth scripturally. It’s all the other rules (sorry for lack of better term, no offense please) in the Catholic church that seem complex.