MERGED: Qs re: Washing of the Feet

[utah_rose]

I attended our beautiful Holy Thursday Liturgy yesterday. The Pastor did anoint some women’s feet. He explained in his homily, I think, because Pope Francis did so but outside of the Vatican! He stated that if it had been within the Vatican, he would have had to wash Bishops feet. He’s a very devout priest and is from the Phillipines and is usually very orthodox. I wondered what some of the others did?

Otherwise a very beautiful Mass. It combined the Chrism Mass with the Holy Thursday Liturgy, and afterwords a nice procession with the Blessed Sacrament and an overhead awning that reminded me of what the Old Testament processions with the Ark of the Conenant enshrined. Our Church is bilingual, and this is the first time that both an English and Spanish Mass were celebrated.

Also, the ringing of the bells still occurred after the Gloria, and I thought that wasn’t supposed to occur. Any thoughts? These are minor things and I feel so blessed to have attended. I’m a senior, and driving late at night is a no no, so this was early at 6pm.

I hope sometime in the future this could be considered so maybe a short Holy Saturday liturgy of some kind could be said in the afternoon.

 

[Phemie]

Otherwise a very beautiful Mass. **It combined the Chrism Mass with the Holy Thursday Liturgy, **

Wait, what?? Do you perhaps mean they presented the Holy Oils that the Pastor had received at the Chrism Mass?

Also, the ringing of the bells still occurred after the Gloria, and I thought that wasn’t supposed to occur. Any thoughts? These are minor things and I feel so blessed to have attended. I’m a senior, and driving late at night is a no no, so this was early at 6pm.

Yes, the bells should have been silent after the Gloria. Nobody told our servers that, though, so we also got bells at the Consecration.

 

[Vasallus]

The bells are OK during this mass. Technically Lent ends at the beginning of Holy Thursday mass. Also at the beginning of mass we are ushered into the Triduum, which is its own Liturgical Season, the shortest.

 

[newcalling]

At our parish the bells were silent. We had a bilingual mass (English and Spanish) which seemed kind of disorganized and poorly planned (some key parts didn’t get a Spanish translation, for example. ) It was my very first Holy Thursday mass, so I don’t know how it is usually done. I do know that at least a couple of parishoners and lay ministers were confused and seemingly a little upset with the way our pastor handled the washing of the feet. I guess that they are used to everyone going up for foot washing, but our pastor decided to just have twelve people representing the twelve Apostles go up for foot washing. I can see the symbolism of it how he did it, but I can also see how that could be seen as elevating some parishioners over others and how some people could feel that they didn’t have the full Holy Thursday experience. Since it was my first one, I didn’t have any expectations, but that part of the service did “feel” awkward even though I don’t know exactly why I thought that it felt awkward. I enjoyed the mass nonetheless, despite back spasms during the song in which I had the most parts to sing. I look forward to tonight, tomorrow night and Sunday morning.

 

[Isca]

Our priest washed the feet of 12 people - they included a young disabled man who represented the youth of the parish, someone who’s on the RCIA, a baby, someone from the Indian community and one from the Polish community and a retired priest who was taking part in the Mass. There was a mix of men/boys and woman/girls.

That reflects how our priest is really - very inclusive. There were 6 altar servers, three boys and three girls.

 

[paperwight66]

At our parish the bells were silent. We had a bilingual mass (English and Spanish) which seemed kind of disorganized and poorly planned (some key parts didn’t get a Spanish translation, for example. ) It was my very first Holy Thursday mass, so I don’t know how it is usually done. I do know that at least a couple of parishoners and lay ministers were confused and seemingly a little upset with the way our pastor handled the washing of the feet. I guess that they are used to everyone going up for foot washing,.

I can’t imagine everyone at Holy Thursday Mass getting their feet washed. How does that work out? It takes long enough with just 12 in our parish.

 

[newcalling]

I can’t imagine everyone at Holy Thursday Mass getting their feet washed. How does that work out? It takes long enough with just 12 in our parish.

I don’t know how it works out. This was my first Holy Thursday mass. I just heard some women who were setting up the altar area complaining to each other about it. “Tch, I know, but it’s the prerogative of the pastor. I guess that he does things different,” one of them said with raised eyebrows. My adult catechism teachers also lead me to believe that there would be a lot more foot washing with comments about how long that part takes, and how they might need to ask the choir (I’m in the choir) to help with it (which I guess previous pastors have done. )

I don’t think that the group which went up were mixed at all other than they were a blend of people who regularly attend the Spanish language mass and some from the English language masses. I think that it was just the priest’s favorite people in the parish. I know that there were no catechumens nor candidates, as my parish has no catechumens this year and my friend and I are the only candidates (we should be confirmed on Pentecost. ) There were no disabled people, and no representation of a cross section of the parish. Again, I don’t know how it is normally done, and I enjoyed the mass despite some of the awkwardness (which was mostly due to the way it seemed to haphazardly be thrown together. I know that we had several last minute changes seemingly at the whim of the priest, and changes and miscommunication throughout the week prior, as the choir director was constantly having to give us changed instructions, including less than an hour before mass.)

Please don’t misunderstand my comments. I love my parish and I adore the pastor and the other priests there as well as everyone who I have met thus far. They are all wonderful people who are full of love, and I really did enjoy the mass despite the complications and awkwardness.

 

[Elizium23]

The bells are OK during this mass. Technically Lent ends at the beginning of Holy Thursday mass. Also at the beginning of mass we are ushered into the Triduum, which is its own Liturgical Season, the shortest.

According to Paschalis sollemnitatis 50, bells are not OK.

Same document, next paragraph, says only men’s feet are to be washed.

Pope Francis, the Lawgiver, has the right to derogate from such laws, but your pastor does not.

 

[His_helpmeet]

I know that it is customary to ring the bells during the Gloria at the Mass of the Lord’s Supper, but I thought afterward they were to be silent until Easter Vigil.

In her book The Sound of Music, Maria Trapp (yes - the musical was based on a REAL family!) writes that children who are young enough to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny can be told that on Holy Thursday, all of the bells in the churches throughout the world fly to Rome where the Holy Father blesses them. The bells then return to the churches on Holy Saturday, freshly blessed for the year.

 

[utah_rose]

The oils that were presented were already blessed. Three times the oils were presented to the pastor, the oils of catechumens? Three young men brought this up and at first I thought that’s Who they were, but since they took Communion I guess they were pre selected… However the priest used a lot of insense, insensing the Tabernacle which was beautiful. 12 people had their feet anointed. Of which 3 or 4 were women. I think all of them are leaders in our Church, and in his homily Father stressed the need to serve, but since he has broken English couldn’t understand all of it. I thought too, musical instruments were to be silenced after the Gloria, but we still had a guitar Mass. In a way it was too festive, reminded me more of Easter. The Mass is usually bi lingual but since we did have it in English, I attended. I’m haven’t been to one for many years due to this, so I don’t know what is considered normal. Our priest is not progressive, so I really wondered why he did wash the women’s feet. I also think maybe selecting 12 people ahead of time rather than randomly might cause hurt feelings in some parishioners. Perhaps our Bishop who is progressive suggested it to the pastors of the diocese.

 

[Phemie]

The bells are OK during this mass. Technically Lent ends at the beginning of Holy Thursday mass. Also at the beginning of mass we are ushered into the Triduum, which is its own Liturgical Season, the shortest.

The bells aren’t silent for Lent, they go silent after the Gloria at the Mass of the Lord’s Supper and don’t return until the Gloria at the Vigil.
Paschales Solemnitatis 50. During the singing of the hymn “Gloria in excelsis” In accordance with local custom, the bells may be rung, and should thereafter remain silent until the “Gloria in excelsis” of the Easter Vigil, unless the conference of bishops or the local ordinary, for a suitable reason, has decided otherwise. (56) During this same period the organ and other musical instruments may be used only for the purpose of supporting the singing. (57)

 

[Phemie]

I know that it is customary to ring the bells during the Gloria at the Mass of the Lord’s Supper, but I thought afterward they were to be silent until Easter Vigil.

In her book The Sound of Music, Maria Trapp (yes - the musical was based on a REAL family!) writes that children who are young enough to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny can be told that on Holy Thursday, all of the bells in the churches throughout the world fly to Rome where the Holy Father blesses them. The bells then return to the churches on Holy Saturday, freshly blessed for the year.

We grew up with that legend of the bells flying to Rome – or at least I did, not sure that my brothers ever paid attention to that.

 

[Phemie]

The oils that were presented were already blessed. Three times the oils were presented to the pastor, the oils of catechumens? Three young men brought this up and at first I thought that’s Who they were, but since they took Communion I guess they were pre selected.

It was the Oil of Catechumens, the Oil of the Sick, and the Sacred Chrism. Ours new oils were also presented last night.

However the priest used a lot of insense, insensing the Tabernacle which was beautiful. 12 people had their feet anointed. Of which 3 or 4 were women. I think all of them are leaders in our Church, and in his homily Father stressed the need to serve, but since he has broken English couldn’t understand all of it. I thought too, musical instruments were to be silenced after the Gloria, but we still had a guitar Mass. In a way it was too festive, reminded me more of Easter.

When I was young, many moons ago, the only instrument was the organ and it went silent after the Gloria. Now the rule is that musical instruments can be used to support singing so no instrumental pieces allowed. We don’t have an organ in our church so guitars it was.

That said, considering both choir leaders are out of town, the choir did an admirable job singing the Ordinary of the Mass a capella.

 

[Isca]

Our priest accompanied himself on the guitar for the Gloria. He’s a first-class player and vocalist. It was really good.

 

[Pax2u]

I hadn’t been to a Holy Thursday Mass in many years, not since it was announced our parish was having a foot-washing ceremony that consisted of anyone who wanted to come up could get their feet washed by another parishioner. It sounded like a recipe for a mess, and I chose not to attend.

There’s a different priest now, and DH and I went last night. Very sparse attendance…this is “spring break” week for the local schools, and I guess a lot of people go out of town to warmer climates during that time. Father washed the feet of 4 men, one woman, and a little girl.

 

[Teelynn]

According to Paschalis sollemnitatis 50, bells are not OK.

Same document, next paragraph, says only men’s feet are to be washed.

Pope Francis, the Lawgiver, has the right to derogate from such laws, but your pastor does not.

That’s correct. Fr. Z talks about that in one of his columns. Pastors are only to wash the feet of 12 males, even if the Holy Father deviates from this practice.

 

[angell1]

if priests and bishops allow footwashing of women when current law says not to?

I’m not trying to be disrespectful or anything

I just don’t know how to feel about this.

I don’t have anything against the practice, it’s more the underlying fact that many shepherds are disregarding something that is currently in effect

it’s not a big thing but how do we know that other things aren’t being ignored as well?

unless they have all obtained permission to do it, which I have no idea of. how likely is that?

please, no comments telling me that it’s not my problem to worry about and also no debates on whether or not it should be allowed

I’m purely interested in the obedience of the rubrick’s aspect

 

[1ke]

Yes, it is objectively wrong to disregard Church law or rubrics.

Is it a sin? Well, we can’t say. Sin requires knowledge and will. So, if a priest does something by mistake, or is under the impression it is allowable, then no it’s not a “sin”.

If it’s done knowing better, and willfully doing so, yes it’s sinful.

Is it mortal or venial? Depends on what it is.

Rubrics would, IMHO, in general be venial unless it was something to do with the form or matter for a sacrament that could impact its validity or something that gave serious scandal to the faithful.

 

[Neofight]

I’m purely interested in the obedience of the rubrick’s aspect

Be more interested in function over form…just as no last thoughts of a man on his death bed are, “I wish I would have spent more time in the office”, Christ is unlikely to say, “I’m sorry, but despite glorifying the Father by loving me, and doing good works for the love of your neighbor, I can’t let you into paradise because you booted the rules in the GRIM or CCL”.

 

[angell1]

Yes, it is objectively wrong to disregard Church law or rubrics.

Is it a sin? Well, we can’t say. Sin requires knowledge and will. So, if a priest does something by mistake, or is under the impression it is allowable, then no it’s not a “sin”.

If it’s done knowing better, and willfully doing so, yes it’s sinful.

Is it mortal or venial? Depends on what it is.

Rubrics would, IMHO, in general be venial unless it was something to do with the form or matter for a sacrament that could impact its validity or something that gave serious scandal to the faithful.

thanks, you always give the best answers

I obviously don’t want to assume anything either. for all we lay people know, the obtained permission the proper way.