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RebeccaJ
Guest
“blast their substance with mildew and destruction”
I’m going to have to use that one.
I’m going to have to use that one.
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SteveVH
Guest
He most definately had a way with words. Very pastoral.“blast their substance with mildew and destruction”
I’m going to have to use that one.
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Jerusha
Guest
here is the mildew and destruction quote in context.
Of course, anyone with even an inkling of a gift of prophecy, commonly called common sense, would have known that such a late start was inadvisable.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Reminds me of Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!.
youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs
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Jerusha
Guest
As for Kilkenny cats eating each other up, the handcart disaster came immediately before the “Reformation” which was a period of time when blood atonement ran rife. Definitely a prophecy. And of course, BY encouraged it.
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Jerusha
Guest
Ah, Parker, freshly boiled water-- as in “hot drinks” prevents cholera. Of course, those dedicated converts couldn’t do that.
If they did, it would have been a sign of incipient apostasy.
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Jerusha
Guest
Perhaps you might want to take a look at why there are so many cracked pots in LDS communities.
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batman1973
Guest
JD 4:68, Brigham Young, November 2, 1856
But if, while at the Missouri river, they had received a hint from any person on this earth, or if even a bird had chirped it in the ears of brothers Richards and Spencer, they would have known better than to rush men, women, and children on to the prairie in the autumn months, on the third of September, to travel over a thousand miles. I repeat that if a bird had chirped the inconsistency of such a course in their ears, they would have thought and considered for one moment, and would have stopped those men, women, and children there until another year.
If any man or woman complains of me or of my Counselors, in regard to the lateness of some of this season’s immigration, let the curse of God be on them and blast their substance with mildew and destruction, until their names are forgotten from the earth. I never thought of my being accused of advising or having anything to do with so late a start. The people must know that I know how to handle money and means, and I never supposed that anybody had a doubt of it. It will cost this people more to bring in those companies from the Plains, than it would to have seasonably brought them from the outfitting point on the Missouri river. I do not believe that the biggest fool in the community could entertain the thought that all this loss of life, time, and means, was through the mismanagement of the First Presidency.
I know how to dictate affairs; and no man need to have walked in darkness touching this duty with regard to the foreign immigration. You can read their duty in our epistles, letters, and sermons; and what is the purport of those documents, on this point? That we are new settlers in a wild and uninhabited country, and are thrown upon our own resources; that we need all our teams and means to prepare for those persons who are coming, instead of crippling us by taking our bread, men, and teams, and going out to meet them. And if the present system continues, this people will be found like the Kilkenny cats, which eat up each other clear to their tails, and they were left jumping at one another; such operations will financially use us up.
That’s priceless.
But if, while at the Missouri river, they had received a hint from any person on this earth, or if even a bird had chirped it in the ears of brothers Richards and Spencer, they would have known better than to rush men, women, and children on to the prairie in the autumn months, on the third of September, to travel over a thousand miles. I repeat that if a bird had chirped the inconsistency of such a course in their ears, they would have thought and considered for one moment, and would have stopped those men, women, and children there until another year.
If any man or woman complains of me or of my Counselors, in regard to the lateness of some of this season’s immigration, let the curse of God be on them and blast their substance with mildew and destruction, until their names are forgotten from the earth. I never thought of my being accused of advising or having anything to do with so late a start. The people must know that I know how to handle money and means, and I never supposed that anybody had a doubt of it. It will cost this people more to bring in those companies from the Plains, than it would to have seasonably brought them from the outfitting point on the Missouri river. I do not believe that the biggest fool in the community could entertain the thought that all this loss of life, time, and means, was through the mismanagement of the First Presidency.
I know how to dictate affairs; and no man need to have walked in darkness touching this duty with regard to the foreign immigration. You can read their duty in our epistles, letters, and sermons; and what is the purport of those documents, on this point? That we are new settlers in a wild and uninhabited country, and are thrown upon our own resources; that we need all our teams and means to prepare for those persons who are coming, instead of crippling us by taking our bread, men, and teams, and going out to meet them. And if the present system continues, this people will be found like the Kilkenny cats, which eat up each other clear to their tails, and they were left jumping at one another; such operations will financially use us up.
That’s priceless.
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Lefty0908
Guest
I’ll do it if you promise to do the same for the Catholic community!
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Jerusha
Guest
Peculiar, how priests recommend that psych meds help, and that it would be a sin to get off them. The concept of scrupulosity has been around, in Catholicism, for multiple centuries, yet LDS are only beginning to become acquainted with it. Want any more examples, or is that adequate?I’ll do it if you promise to do the same for the Catholic community!
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TexanKnight
Guest
Yes…so confusing…Adam is our God…God was once a sinful man… no wonder LDS have such a messed up idea about God…
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TheExorcist
Guest
Modern Mormons like to pretend that Adam-God is a fringe doctrine but BY taught it for most all of his 30 years as president of the church. It was even in the temple in the form of the “lecture at the veil”
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I read crud like this and wonder why Dean Wormer (aka Eric Hilbert) only puts me on Double Secret Probation for uncharitable posts!
Were I to follow the generous examples of the practitioners of true religion found here (as opposed to my own life as a “cult” member that londonstimes so graciously points out), I would demand the following:
Stupid enough yet? The truth is I don’t hold those views at all. I personally know that these acts have indeed been performed in behalf of myself and those I love, much to my blessing and having my heart softened by such devotion not just to me, but to God, who my Catholic and Jewish friends serve. I’m sorry that what we Latter-day Saints do in our temples seems incapable of being viewed in that same light by some among those who are not of our faith.
- When I die, LT, your people better not say the Mourner’s Kaddish in my behalf. You have no right unless I give it to you. And because I have this big chip on my shoulder, I demand it not be done. I don’t care what you think G-d has said on the subject, nor how kind and generous a thing someone of good will might view it. I’m upset!
- And you Catholics don’t be praying the Rosary for me! It doesn’t matter how sincere you are, and it’s of no consequence that you feel bound by the Lord to do so. My personal consent overrides all that, and unless you have my express written permission (and you don’t!), I demand that you cease and desist.
- I also know that both your traditions have some tender act of religious devotion that involves lighting candles in behalf of others in connection with beseeching God in their behalf. Well back off! How dare you exhibit such deeply felt religious sincerity for others’ spiritual welfare? I’m soooo offended!
This notion of “making Mormons” of the dead by being baptized in their behalf is absurd. From our own theological perspective, this simply isn’t possible. In our view, the ordinances (including baptism) that are performed in our temples in behalf of the dead are binding on an individual only when the person for whom they are performed accepts the gospel of Christ upon which the ordinances are founded. If that doesn’t occur, they are of no effect whatsoever. An individual’s freedom of choice is absolutely fundamental to our doctrine and God will not approve its violation in this world or the one to come. Think about it. If the logic being put forth by some posters here was viable, why wouldn’t we Mormons do the same for the living as we do for the dead? I’d just run down and be baptized for you all and - voila! - everyone would be instantly transformed and suddenly be wearing white shirts and ties, worrying about food storage and why BYU basketball stinks! :yup:
I readily admit and am embarassed by the actions of some of our people that have caused offense in this thing. I concur with my church’s official statement on the subject as regarding my people: “It is distressing when an individual willfully violates the Church’s policy and something that should be understood to be an offering based on love and respect becomes a source of contention. The Church will continue to do all it can to prevent such instances, including denying access to these genealogical records or other privileges to those who abuse them in this way.”
LT thinks Mormons are involved in some grand conspiracy, so no doubt he’ll reject the statement (but not to worry, LT, I’ll never believe that Jews blew up the WTC on 9/11).
I think there are just some over-enthusiastic dopes among the Mormons who won’t follow our leaders’ counsel in this thing (freedom of choice again). And I think I’m right. I live among these people and heaven knows I can name 10 crackpots to every 1 that any of you have met!
But that’s us. We’re failed and sinful just like you. But that doesn’t preclude our trying to do the best we can by the light we believe the Lord has given us - just like you.
One poster stated that the worst to be said about our practice of vicarious work for the dead is that it’s a monumental waste of time. I can live with that. On the other hand, Ghandi’s grandson, commenting on his grandfather having been baptized for by the Mormons, is quoted as saying, “My grandfather always believed in respecting all the religions. When anyone asked him in his lifetime which religion he believed in, he said, ‘I’m a Hindu, I’m a Christian, I’m a Muslim, I’m a Buddhist, I’m everything.’ So in that spirit, I think he’d now say he’s a Mormon, too.”
Maybe so. Maybe not. It’s not for me to judge.
when I was an atheist, people would tell me they were praying for me. I know atheists that are offended by this. I was not, I just figured it helped that person feel better, as though they could do something in a situation where nothing could be done. It’s the same thing I think about Mormons doing their death work. Doesn’t do anything for me. Self gratifying for LDS, which goes to Jerusha’s point of scrupulosity.The piece that’s irritating is the gathering of Catholic sacramental records. There is no comparison for this activity in any religion.
I can see how Jews would be more sensitive than any other to this type of activity. Still remains a fact that Mormons have no capacity for empathy. This comes across to others as arrogance.
Momon leaders don’t like bad publicity, which is what they are sorry about. There is no actual remorse for anything but that.
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Callvenus
Guest
I am in the process of leaving the LDS church and I can assure you that they do not believe in the Bible the way Catholics believe in the bible. Example, when Jesus broke the bread and gave it to his disciples and said, THIS IS MY BODY, the Joseph Smith Translation changed it to THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF MY BODY.We believe the teachings and truths held within the bible to be correct and from God, insofar as they are translated, interpreted and understood correctly. I believe this would be the Catholic view also.
We believe that Joseph Smith’s translation of The Book of Mormon, as well as his interpolations in the Bible and the texts ‘from’ the various papyrus (as canonised in our standard works) to be produced by divine inspiration and guidance from God and the Holy Spirit.
This, however, does not mean that every word that JS spoke is automatically true and correct (men on the moon for example).
This question really needs to be split up:
The simple answer is yes, absolutely.
Our doctrine states that we are judged according to what we did, but also how we acted on the knowledge and understanding that we had. i.e. it is not just to condemn someone for doing/not doing something of which we had no knowledge,
How quickly would you like?
Generally (I believe) you would be expected to have attended a few meetings, and had the basic lessons from our missionaries; as well as professing faith in Jesus Christ and repentance of sin. Timescale-wise this could happen within a few weeks, but for some they have taken years of study, prayer and discussion before finally desiring to be baptised.
Well now, do you simply mean stopped attending? Or do you mean they did something unacceptable to our doctrines and practises? Or do you mean they became openly against the church?
Very little happens to anyone who simply stops attending (like my sister); they are still welcome at any activity and meeting, their friends within the church will still see them and treat them the same as ever.
Actually, neither of these are true.
For an excommunication trial, you would have to have done something severely against our doctrines. While the trial and decision would still go ahead; you don’t need to attend, and are probably more likely to be excommunicated if you don’t. However, the process is far from humiliating; on the contrary it is full of love and concern for the spiritual welfare of the individual concerned. However, this is only perceived if the person has a humble and penitent attitude towards the proceedings, as it is not a comfortable experience (why would it be, bringing up the worst of what they have done in front of a number of people who they know well; its embarrassing naturally - but this is not the focus nor the reason)
Also, if you leave the church, you might be technically welcome in all functions and no one will force you to leave but you will also not feel welcome by any means and you will be shunned socially. I have experienced t his and everyone in my family went through the same thing.
Lastly, to be excommunicated, you dont really need to commit a serious sin but merely take an opinion that is considered dissenting. I had a professor at BYU that was excommunicated because she felt that her students should pray to Heavenly Mother as well as Heavenly Father since mormon belief states that we are the product of Heavenly Parents.
Mormon tactics are to pretend that they are understanding and reasonable about people that question, doubt, dissent, or even leave the church but the practice is quite different. Everything you have ever known will change if you leave the church.
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TheExorcist
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You’re giving “the church” a lot of credit. I don’t think they even PRETEND to understand questioning, doubt or dissent. If you exhibit any of those characteristics (depending on your Bishop/Stake President) you can be belittled, bullied and made to feel like there is something wrong with YOU. Of course that’s the whole MO of the church, if you don’t “feel the Spirit” or receive revelation, answers to your prayer or strengthen your testimony its always somehow YOUR fault. And then if you leave the church it must be because you’re sinning…Pretty malevolent if you ask me.
Im in the process of leaving the church myself.
Charles
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TexanKnight
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I know. It is part of of the LDS White Wash Project…or should I call it Pure Wash Project?
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TexanKnight
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I read crud like this and wonder why Dean Wormer (aka Eric Hilbert) only puts me on Double Secret Probation for uncharitable posts!
Being rude is just another LDS trait. I would hope you would act like the TRUE Jesus and not the LDS one.
Were I to follow the generous examples of the practitioners of true religion found here (as opposed to my own life as a “cult” member that londonstimes so graciously points out), I would demand the following:
At least you admit to being in a cult
Let me guess…you are trying to compare a passive act of prayer to an active action of baptism? How odd that you try to compare the two.
- When I die, LT, your people better not say the Mourner’s Kaddish in my behalf. You have no right unless I give it to you. And because I have this big chip on my shoulder, I demand it not be done. I don’t care what you think G-d has said on the subject, nor how kind and generous a thing someone of good will might view it. I’m upset!
Again, the ridiculous of comparing a prayer with an active baptism. But, it is what Mormons do. They try to make inappropriate and nonsensical comparisons
- And you Catholics don’t be praying the Rosary for me! It doesn’t matter how sincere you are, and it’s of no consequence that you feel bound by the Lord to do so. My personal consent overrides all that, and unless you have my express written permission (and you don’t!), I demand that you cease and desist.
Of course you are. You are offended at an inanimate candle while you are NOT offended at doing something to people without their consent.
- I also know that both your traditions have some tender act of religious devotion that involves lighting candles in behalf of others in connection with beseeching God in their behalf. Well back off! How dare you exhibit such deeply felt religious sincerity for others’ spiritual welfare? I’m soooo offended!
Stupid enough yet?
Yes…your comparisons are stupid and irrelevant.
I get it. Joseph married women without their consent so you believe you can do whatever you want without the person’s consent
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TheExorcist
Guest
Yes, and it worked in the 70s, 80s and 90s but now with the rise of the Internet its been like a new Renaissance of information bringing the church into the light and exposing all of their past lies and misdeeds for all to see. There is a reason members seem to be leaving in record numbers.
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KathleenGee
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Lefty,
I have made my own synopsis of Mormonism vs Catholicism in the area of baptisms and prosletyzing on the thread, ’ Mormons, how could you…‘killing her twice’…and Mormon response/answers…’, post 75.
You have an 1800 year old gap…
I have made my own synopsis of Mormonism vs Catholicism in the area of baptisms and prosletyzing on the thread, ’ Mormons, how could you…‘killing her twice’…and Mormon response/answers…’, post 75.
You have an 1800 year old gap…
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