MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[Publisher]

As far as I’ve seen, statistics are used by the Catholic Church to “count” it’s total membership. So, their numbers are based on the number of people who answer, “what religion are you?”, with “Catholic”.The Mormon church keeps a database of every member, and so their count is based on the number of records in that database. That is why there is a large discrepancy between the count the Mormon church gives (14M) and the count coming from statistics (5M).

The Catholic church does not have a central database that contains information for every single Catholic. Sacramental records are kept at the parish. If you want/need a copy of them, you have to go to the parish where the sacraments were performed.

The only actual count of Catholics I’ve seen is an annual report that lists the number of infant baptisms, adult baptisms and confirmations, and # of men who have received the sacrament of holy orders.

My point, the LDS church uses the 14m number of those on the rolls…NOT those who attend with any regularity or frequency…I have a good friend who is “Mormon”…yet he hasn’t been to an LDS meeting in decades…I find Catholics who answer “I’m Catholic” in the same boat…my cousins claim to be “Catholic”…yet can’t remember the last time they attendded a mass.

My “suspicion” is, BOTH communities inflate their numbers to bloster their status…to disparage the LDS for doing the same thing Catholics do concerning their membership statistics…just doesn’t seem to speak toward “Truth”…“finger pointing” at the LDS while “dismissing” Catholics…just seems less than honorable and honest to me…but that’s the “Quaker” in me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

My point, the LDS church uses the 14m number of those on the rolls…NOT those who attend with any regularity or frequency…I have a good friend who is “Mormon”…yet he hasn’t been to an LDS meeting in decades…I find Catholics who answer “I’m Catholic” in the same boat…my cousins claim to be “Catholic”…yet can’t remember the last time they attendded a mass.

My “suspicion” is, BOTH communities inflate their numbers to bloster their status…to disparage the LDS for doing the same thing Catholics do concerning their membership statistics…just doesn’t seem to speak toward “Truth”…“finger pointing” at the LDS while “dismissing” Catholics…just seems less than honorable and honest to me…but that’s the “Quaker” in me.

Personally, I’ve never thought it is about numbers. If 14M people are wrong, and 1 is right, who cares what the 14M think?

BTW, the Mormon church still counts me as Mormon. LOL.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

My point, the LDS church uses the 14m number of those on the rolls…NOT those who attend with any regularity or frequency…I have a good friend who is “Mormon”…yet he hasn’t been to an LDS meeting in decades…I find Catholics who answer “I’m Catholic” in the same boat…my cousins claim to be “Catholic”…yet can’t remember the last time they attendded a mass.

My “suspicion” is, BOTH communities inflate their numbers to bloster their status…to disparage the LDS for doing the same thing Catholics do concerning their membership statistics…just doesn’t seem to speak toward “Truth”…“finger pointing” at the LDS while “dismissing” Catholics…just seems less than honorable and honest to me…but that’s the “Quaker” in me.

All religious communities tend to do that.

To an extent, it is probably intentional, in another, perhaps not.

It’s a bit difficult to gather statistics on who is a faithful and consistent Church member and who isn’t. It’s simply easier to go by self-declaration and/or by records that already exist.

The government does this all the time too. Theoretically I could declare myself African-American or “Other” or whatever I want on the Census form even though I am a European.

 

[TexanKnight]

My point, the LDS church uses the 14m number of those on the rolls…NOT those who attend with any regularity or frequency…I have a good friend who is “Mormon”…yet he hasn’t been to an LDS meeting in decades…I find Catholics who answer “I’m Catholic” in the same boat…my cousins claim to be “Catholic”…yet can’t remember the last time they attendded a mass.

My “suspicion” is, BOTH communities inflate their numbers to bloster their status…to disparage the LDS for doing the same thing Catholics do concerning their membership statistics…just doesn’t seem to speak toward “Truth”…“finger pointing” at the LDS while “dismissing” Catholics…just seems less than honorable and honest to me…but that’s the “Quaker” in me.

Well, as I stated, I was not making excuses. I could care less how many each has. I was simply offering an intelligent discussion showing how would be infinitely easier for Mormons to be accurate than Catholics.

 

[Publisher]

All religious communities tend to do that.

To an extent, it is probably intentional, in another, perhaps not.

It’s a bit difficult to gather statistics on who is a faithful and consistent Church member and who isn’t. It’s simply easier to go by self-declaration and/or by records that already exist.

The government does this all the time too. Theoretically I could declare myself African-American or “Other” or whatever I want on the Census form even though I am a European.

I agree…alll communities do it…even Friends…to suggest that one group…such as the LDS do it to be dishonest in some way…is what…didn’t set well with me in our pursuit of Truth.

I believe I do have an “agenda”…Truth.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I agree…alll communities do it…even Friends…to suggest that one group…such as the LDS do it to be dishonest in some way…is what…didn’t set well with me in our pursuit of Truth.

It has much more cultural significance to Mormons than it does to Catholics. It is for them a sign that a prophecy is being fulfilled:

“The dispensation of divine truth in which we now live, in distinction from previous dispensations, will not be destroyed by apostasy. This is in fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy that ‘the God of heaven [would] set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed’ nor ‘left to other people’ (Daniel 2:44). President John Taylor affirmed this also when he said: ‘There is one thing very certain, . . . and that is, whatever men may think, and however they may plot and contrive, that this Kingdom will never be given into the hands of another people. It will grow and spread and increase, and no man living can stop its progress’ (in Journal of Discourses, 25:348).”

Their numbers get viewed with suspicion because they are seeking to “prove” something, to themselves, about themselves. For Mormons, it IS about numbers.

It is why there was an audible gasp when their leaders announced a Mormon temple in Rome. Every single person in that congregation is applying the significance that growth has for them, to that announcement. You have to remember, a lot of Mormonism is about appearance. So critiquing that appearance is just one method to opening the eyes of a Mormon to reality.

 

[Publisher]

It has much more cultural significance to Mormons than it does to Catholics. It is for them a sign that a prophecy is being fulfilled:

Their numbers get viewed with suspicion because they are seeking to “prove” something, to themselves, about themselves. For Mormons, it IS about numbers.

It is why there was an audible gasp when their leaders announced a Mormon temple in Rome. Every single person in that congregation is applying the significance that growth has for them, to that announcement. You have to remember, a lot of Mormonism is about appearance. So critiquing that appearance is just one method to opening the eyes of a Mormon to reality.

Perhaps it is about “appearance” and the numbers do matter to them…as they matter to Catholics when the 1.xxx billion members is somehow used to bolster the fact that Cathlicism is “true” because of it’s sheer numbers…as has been stated before on this board…even if it’s about the “numbers” for LDS…that does not affirm they are somehow being “dishonest” about their membership…as with Catholics…it’s a apoligetic tactic.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

It has much more cultural significance to Mormons than it does to Catholics. It is for them a sign that a prophecy is being fulfilled:

Their numbers get viewed with suspicion because they are seeking to “prove” something, to themselves, about themselves. For Mormons, it IS about numbers.

It is why there was an audible gasp when their leaders announced a Mormon temple in Rome. Every single person in that congregation is applying the significance that growth has for them, to that announcement. You have to remember, a lot of Mormonism is about appearance. So critiquing that appearance is just one method to opening the eyes of a Mormon to reality.

It’s about numbers to everyone.

You don’t think that Catholicism’s massive numbers are a boost to those who believe that the Catholic Church really is the realization of Christ’s Church?

What about when a couple of years ago a statistic announced that there were more Muslims in the world than Roman Catholics? You don’t think that did a number on Catholic pride at all?

I will agree that Mormonism is a non-Christian group. However, I think the theological problems that we agree that Mormonism has is more than sufficient to critique it. I don’t really see a point in delving further in a relative non-issue like numbers of faithful.

I will agree that the LDS Church’s announcement of the building of a temple in Rome is a bit shocking. But then again, if the Catholic Church has survived 2,000 years, through persecution and heresy, it can survive the “threat” of a Mormon temple in Rome.

 

[MaryHelene]

Hi Bezant,

The main difference between the two books is that one was written in the Old World (Jerusalem) and the other was written by prophets in the New World (the Americas). There was a prophet that lived in Jerusalem that sailed to the Americas about 600 BC and he and his family were the beginning of civilization in the Americas. They became a numerous people and among them lived prophets, just like the prophets in Jerusalem.

 

[TexanKnight]

hmmm…not a question about honesty?

Let’s say I sell hamburgers. I am very technology oriented, and have the ability to count how many hamburgers I sell, but choose not to. Instead, I say I have sold over 14 million.

Let’s say another company has no real way to count all the hamburgers they sell, but old records and such indicate they have sold about a billion. So, they say they have sold about a billion.

Who is being more dishonest? Is it me, who CAN be accurate, but refuses to, or the other company, who has no way to be accurate and is going off of old records?

Now, to be fair, I have not brought up the number the Catholics to show we MUST be right because a billion people cant be wrong. I have said, and I will say again, that it is not relevant. I would be Catholic even of there were only 3 of us. But to say one is intersted in truth and refuses to acknowledge the differences in the two organizations is not truly looking for truth, but looking to make a point.

 

[StevieD]

Perhaps it is about “appearance” and the numbers do matter to them…as they matter to Catholics when the 1.xxx billion members is somehow used to bolster the fact that Cathlicism is “true” because of it’s sheer numbers…as has been stated before on this board…even if it’s about the “numbers” for LDS…that does not affirm they are somehow being “dishonest” about their membership…as with Catholics…it’s a apoligetic tactic.

If anyone says that there are only a third of a billion practicing Catholics, I would have no way of refuting it and so would not BUT when the LDS claims (as they absolutely do and do so repeatedly) that there are 14 million LDS and I KNOW it to be false, from all the evidence available, then I will refute it in the interests of truth and accuracy. They have an agenda to increase their influence by inflating their numbers and they do so knowingly.

 

[KathleenGee]

I definitely can understand Publisher’s position.

This scenario takes me back to my first days in the missions in a former Portuguese colony. I asked the pastor how many Catholics there were, and he right away said 42,000, and that included baptized Catholics.

In time we had visits with several Portuguese families. One husband was very open and sharing. At Sunday Mass, however, he would sit out in the car waiting for his wife to come out of Mass.

The number of 42,000 was accurate, but it doesn’t mean people are going to Mass and participating in the life of the Church.

The Church does not monitor people, does not make them come to church meetings 7 days a week or have it a parish practice that parishioners target certain people to get them to come back or participate more.

The Church proposes but it does not force people.

There have been lay associations that have come and gone that work in their own parish boundaries to do census and to welcome any fallen away Catholics back. I did one and we found out that there were only 2 houses that went to the parish in its boundaries, that practically all were secular atheist types, including families, but the parish was among the wealthiest in the diocese because it taught orthodoxy, had several Masses a day and confession before each Mass…so it was your alternative parish so to speak.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

Yes, we keep records of our membership, and those who wish to be removed can be so removed and no longer counted.
Just like when Moses was commanded to number the Israelites (hence the book of Numbers). Obviously the Lord already knew what Moses’ outcome would be, but He wanted the people to have it recorded themselves.
So yes, our membership totals over 14 Million, not estimated. It would require an estimate to number those whomactivelymattend meetings, but even those who do not attend are still members unless they tell us they no longer wish to be counted as such.

 

[RebeccaJ]

but even those who do not attend are still members unless they tell us they no longer wish to be counted as such.

Not any more than me being in a rock climbing company’s database makes me a rock climber.

That’s how I see it.

 

[TexanKnight]

Yes, we keep records of our membership, and those who wish to be removed can be so removed and no longer counted.
Just like when Moses was commanded to number the Israelites (hence the book of Numbers). Obviously the Lord already knew what Moses’ outcome would be, but He wanted the people to have it recorded themselves.
So yes, our membership totals over 14 Million, not estimated. It would require an estimate to number those whomactivelymattend meetings, but even those who do not attend are still members unless they tell us they no longer wish to be counted as such.

wrong. When I asked to be removed from the records, it was a nightmare

 

[paulp1002]

Here is a scenerio:

If you have 10 Mormons in a room and 5 say “I’m a devout Mormon” and the other 5 say “I’m no longer Mormon and I attend another church now, but I never had my name removed from the church records.”

Would the Mormon Church count the total as 5 or 10? And if we changed the group to 10 Catholics, how would our Church count the total number?

 

[TheExorcist]

Here is a scenerio:

If you have 10 Mormons in a room and 5 say “I’m a devout Mormon” and the other 5 say “I’m no longer Mormon and I attend another church now, but I never had my name removed from the church records.”

Would the Mormon Church count the total as 5 or 10? And if we changed the group to 10 Catholics, how would our Church count the total number?

1. If they have never had their names removed they are still counted as members and a lot fo times their records will actually find their way to the ward where they reside. Sometimes.

 

[KathleenGee]

Catholics can call their parish and say they are no longer parishioners there and their names are then pulled. There are Catholics who have renounced their faith, and do not want a Catholic burial. It is hard for the families who have kept their faith, and will want to have some kind of burial that shows respect for that deceased person…but with some aspect of faith shared by the family…and they continue to pray for the deceased.

It is up to the individual to renounce their faith or not and it is primarily directed to God Himself. They reject the Church or Christ Himself, it is a matter between the Lord and that person.

 

[Jerusha]

And if we changed the group to 10 Catholics, how would our Church count the total number?

Catholics are more concerned with souls and temporal well-being than numbers.

 

[TheExorcist]

Catholics can call their parish and say they are no longer parishioners there and their names are then pulled. There are Catholics who have renounced their faith, and do not want a Catholic burial. It is hard for the families who have kept their faith, and will want to have some kind of burial that shows respect for that deceased person…but with some aspect of faith shared by the family…and they continue to pray for the deceased.

It is up to the individual to renounce their faith or not and it is primarily directed to God Himself. They reject the Church or Christ Himself, it is a matter between the Lord and that person.

It’s different in the Mormon church because all records are kept at Salt Lake City. When a new family moves into the ward the ward clerk collects their info and puts it into the computer. Then at the end of the session of whatever he is working on he does a send/receive to/from SLC. The new family’s records are then transferred into that ward and disappear from whatever ward they moved from.

Mormon leaders pay a lot of lip service about being concerned with souls but when push comes to shove they want the numbers up and keep track of them quite fastidiously