MERGED Questions about Mormonism

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wussup said:
Your understanding of a false dilemma is correct. The two options you gave were:

a) Native Americans are decendants of an ancient tribe per Joseph Smith

B) Native Americans are from Asia per the science of genetics.

‘B’ is certainly appears to be true, at least from maternal mitochondrial dna studies. The question is, is ‘a’ a valid question. No. It has not been the claims of the Church as doctrine that the American Indians were descendents of Israelites. The links I provided go into some depth as to why the question is not valid. Repeating it here would not only be plagiarizing, but boring. I recommend you read these and then study it on your own, even if it is to disprove the ideas. At least you will have a sound basis for disagreeing.
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I have not read the Book of Mormon but my understanding from Mormons through my lifetime is that the BoM is an additional Gospel and the words in it are easily understood and “true”. If I pick it up and read it, I now understand that there is interpretation required. I am I saying this accurately? :confused:

I’m still puzzled as to what are the “doctrines” of the Mormon church. Where do I find them?
 
One point to consider. Given that the ‘first’ Western Europeans to colonize the America’s were Vikings, and given their propensity for pillaging, why do we not see at least isolated strands of Danish or Swedish mitochondrial DNA?
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I have studied this issue extensively, given that there are some parallels between the fictional BoM and Scandinavian literature.
  1. Would it pain you to read that they are looking for such DNA? Haven’t found any that old yet.
  2. Their supply lines were long, and the Northern seas were rough.
  3. The Greenland settlements were in a subsistence agriculture mode, during a time of relatively warm winters. They were too busy surviving to go pillaging. As Christianity took hold, they gave up the Viking (freebooting-- piracy-- Gadianton lifestyle).
  4. They were waay outnumbered-- remember that this was before the American epidemics, and during the Bubonic plagues in Europe.
  5. The small settlement at L’anse aux Meadows only lasted one year. The Natives kept making life difficult for them, so they abandoned it.
  6. Not all Scandinavians were pillagers-- the Vikings were a lawless subset from among them. Eric the Red, as a banished outlaw, was certainly a Viking. His son Lief, was not, and visited with Scandinavian royalty.
  7. All that aside, there is a possibility that some of the survivors escaped to the west, maybe around 1300. We do not know what happened to them, although there are Native legends that might relate to that.
  8. It appears that Adolph Hitler, a fan of Carl May, believed that the Natives in the North were superior to the Natives of the South because of an infusion of Scandinavian blood. If so, why were the civilizations of the south more advanced?
Sorry to dash your hopes.
 
Porknpie said:
I have not read the Book of Mormon but my understanding from Mormons through my lifetime is that the BoM is an additional Gospel and the words in it are easily understood and “true”. If I pick it up and read it, I now understand that there is interpretation required. I am I saying this accurately? :confused:

I’m still puzzled as to what are the “doctrines” of the Mormon church. Where do I find them?
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Depends upon the period in which you are interested. They tend to change over time and it also dpends upon whom you speak with as to whether or not a particular belief is actully held as doctrine. When you find an easy way, please let us all know. 👍
 
Porknpie said:
I have not read the Book of Mormon but my understanding from Mormons through my lifetime is that the BoM is an additional Gospel and the words in it are easily understood and “true”. If I pick it up and read it, I now understand that there is interpretation required. I am I saying this accurately? :confused:

I’m still puzzled as to what are the “doctrines” of the Mormon church. Where do I find them?
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I figure you to be jerking my chain, but that’s ok, I’ll play.
If you pick it up and read it, you will understand it. The only interpretation involved is the same as when you read the Bible, that the Holy Spirit of God will help attain the understanding of what you are reading.
The Doctrines of the Church are found in the Scriptures.
 
note, this is where the Anti-mormon would jump off subject and bring out a half dozen ‘proofs’ that are actually just as equally fallacious as the false dilemma just discussed.
 
Porknpie said:
I’m still puzzled as to what are the “doctrines” of the Mormon church. Where do I find them?
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For a beginner’s guide to the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you can read the Gospel Principles Manual. This manual is used during the Sunday School hour of our Sunday church services, to teach investigators (those learning about the Church), new Latter-day Saints, and Latter-day Saints that are returning to active participation in the Church of Jesus Christ. There are other manuals with similar content, however that is a good start.
 
LivingWaters7 said:
For a beginner’s guide to the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you can read the Gospel Principles Manual. This manual is used during the Sunday School hour of our Sunday church services, to teach investigators (those learning about the Church), new Latter-day Saints, and Latter-day Saints that are returning to active participation in the Church of Jesus Christ. There are other manuals with similar content, however that is a good start.
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That is onpy partially true. I would also research on the internet. You will find doctrines such as Adam being our God, Blood Oaths (where you agreed to kill each other under certain circumstances), etc.
 
wussup said:
I figure you to be jerking my chain, but that’s ok, I’ll play.
If you pick it up and read it, you will understand it. The only interpretation involved is the same as when you read the Bible, that the Holy Spirit of God will help attain the understanding of what you are reading.
The Doctrines of the Church are found in the Scriptures.
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Wussup -

I am not pulling your chain. The Catholic church puts all its beliefs and doctrines in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is available on line for free:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

I simply do not know where to find this in the Church of Latter Day Saints. In the Catholic church, I do not interpret the scripture on my own. This is impossible. There is too much historical understanding that I do not have, Jewish and Gentile customs and history, and knowledge of ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages. To understand scripture completely, I need the theologians and the Church to help guide me. Using a couple of different commentaries helps as does buying the St. Ignatius Bible (best $30 that you can spend).

So let’s pretend that I am considering the Mormon church. What do I read to understand the doctrines and beliefs of the Church?
 
Porknpie said:
So let’s pretend that I am considering the Mormon church. What do I read to understand the doctrines and beliefs of the Church?
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I don’t think they could ever have anything on par with the CCC. The belief in modern revelation would prohibit it because it would have to be re-written too often. It is a reason, however, that we see such a wide variety of Mormon opinions on exactly what is doctrine and what is not.
 
SteveVH said:
I don’t think they could ever have anything on par with the CCC. The belief in modern revelation would prohibit it because it would have to be re-written too often. It is a reason, however, that we see such a wide variety of Mormon opinions on exactly what is doctrine and what is not.
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And I think Mormons are OK with everyone having a wide variety of opinions, as long as they stay within a defined framework, which is found in their 11 Articles of Faith. Add to that, you have to be on board with believing Joseph Smith was a prophet, and their current leader is a prophet. Other than that, you can believe just about anything you like.
 
RebeccaJ said:
And I think Mormons are OK with everyone having a wide variety of opinions, as long as they stay within a defined framework, which is found in their 11 Articles of Faith. Add to that, you have to be on board with believing Joseph Smith was a prophet, and their current leader is a prophet. Other than that, you can believe just about anything you like.
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So Mormon cafeterianism is alive and well? 😃
 
SteveVH said:
So Mormon cafeterianism is alive and well? 😃
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ha!

They call it personal inspiration. Which isn’t a criticism! I assume that my ancestors who converted to Mormons from Quakerism, found Mormonism to be comfortable. It’s a Quaker kind of attribute that they have retained, though, I wouldn’t say it is as strong as it was in Smith’s time.
 
RebeccaJ said:
ha!

They call it personal inspiration. Which isn’t a criticism! I assume that my ancestors who converted to Mormons from Quakerism, found Mormonism to be comfortable. It’s a Quaker kind of attribute that they have retained, though, I wouldn’t say it is as strong as it was in Smith’s time.
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Makes sense.
 
Porknpie said:
Wussup -

I am not pulling your chain. The Catholic church puts all its beliefs and doctrines in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is available on line for free:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

I simply do not know where to find this in the Church of Latter Day Saints. In the Catholic church, I do not interpret the scripture on my own. This is impossible. There is too much historical understanding that I do not have, Jewish and Gentile customs and history, and knowledge of ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages. To understand scripture completely, I need the theologians and the Church to help guide me. Using a couple of different commentaries helps as does buying the St. Ignatius Bible (best $30 that you can spend).

So let’s pretend that I am considering the Mormon church. What do I read to understand the doctrines and beliefs of the Church?
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Living Waters7 suggestion is a good one. Here is a link to the Gospel Principles Manual…
As you can see, there is also a plethura of information (false information) regarding what we ‘really’ believe. There are also an equal number of responses to these concerns as well. Regarding anti-mormon ‘literature’, think of the equally virulent ‘anti-papist’ ‘literature’, and recognize that many are so insecure in their own belief they feel the need to propagate lies, distortions, and half-truths to rationalize their tenous belief system. That doesn’t mean don’t read it, it means take it in the context it is given, then find out from a real LDS what the response is.

You have probably noticed I generally refuse to bible-bash. It is such a colossal waste of time, and is contraindicated for rational discussion. It has been my experience that anyone can rationally take just about anything they choose from scripture, as evidenced by the vast number of churches with ‘unique’ and ‘Scripture inspired’ doctrine. I truly do come here to tap into the generous well-spring of Catholic thought. Several years ago, here on the catholic.com forum, I attempted to work with a young man going to seminary school and create a program to read and discuss Aquinas’ Summa…. (Which I have read by the way, utterly fantastic and nowhere is the use of language so elegant and sublimely beautiful.) I couldn’t get anything going, even with a front man.
 
wussup said:
Living Waters7 suggestion is a good one. Here is a link to the Gospel Principles Manual…
As you can see, there is also a plethura of information (false information) regarding what we ‘really’ believe. There are also an equal number of responses to these concerns as well. Regarding anti-mormon ‘literature’, think of the equally virulent ‘anti-papist’ ‘literature’, and recognize that many are so insecure in their own belief they feel the need to propagate lies, distortions, and half-truths to rationalize their tenous belief system. That doesn’t mean don’t read it, it means take it in the context it is given, then find out from a real LDS what the response is.

You have probably noticed I generally refuse to bible-bash. It is such a colossal waste of time, and is contraindicated for rational discussion. It has been my experience that anyone can rationally take just about anything they choose from scripture, as evidenced by the vast number of churches with ‘unique’ and ‘Scripture inspired’ doctrine. I truly do come here to tap into the generous well-spring of Catholic thought. Several years ago, here on the catholic.com forum, I attempted to work with a young man going to seminary school and create a program to read and discuss Aquinas’ Summa…. (Which I have read by the way, utterly fantastic and nowhere is the use of language so elegant and sublimely beautiful.) I couldn’t get anything going, even with a front man.
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The problem is, Gospel Principals tells only part of the story. It does not give the full truth or talk about the ugly doctrines they try to hide
 
Porknpie said:
Wussup -

I am not pulling your chain. The Catholic church puts all its beliefs and doctrines in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is available on line for free:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

I simply do not know where to find this in the Church of Latter Day Saints.
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You mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
In the Catholic church, I do not interpret the scripture on my own. This is impossible. There is too much historical understanding that I do not have, Jewish and Gentile customs and history, and knowledge of ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages. To understand scripture completely, I need the theologians and the Church to help guide me. Using a couple of different commentaries helps as does buying the St. Ignatius Bible (best $30 that you can spend).
Click to expand...
So let’s pretend that I am considering the Mormon church. What do I read to understand the doctrines and beliefs of the Church?
Click to expand...
As I mentioned earlier, investigators (those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), new Latter-day Saints, and Latter-day Saints coming back to full activity in the Church frequently attend the Gospel Essentials/Principles class during the Sunday School hour of our Sunday church services, and the manual for that is called “Gospel Principles”. That is a good place to start.
 
LivingWaters7 said:
You mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

As I mentioned earlier, investigators (those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), new Latter-day Saints, and Latter-day Saints coming back to full activity in the Church frequently attend the Gospel Essentials/Principles class during the Sunday School hour of our Sunday church services, and the manual for that is called “Gospel Principles”. That is a good place to start.
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and as I mentioned earlier, Gospel Principles does not tell the full story. There are many doctrines that it does NOT talk about. It does not talk about Blood Oaths. It does not talk about polygamy or that Adam is our God or that God was once a sinful man or many other LDS doctrines that the LDS Church tries to whitewash and hide.
 
TexanKnight said:
and as I mentioned earlier, Gospel Principles does not tell the full story. There are many doctrines that it does NOT talk about. It does not talk about Blood Oaths. It does not talk about polygamy or that Adam is our God or that God was once a sinful man or many other LDS doctrines that the LDS Church tries to whitewash and hide.
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The gospel principles manual covers what is doctrine now, and ignores what the doctrine was in the past.
 
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