MERGED: Questions for Catholics on how we got our Bible

[IggyAntiochus]

No, Iggy. It is quite clear that “literary style is literary style”.

Take Genesis. There is disagreement among Christian denominations about what “literary style” this was written in.

The first three chapters, perhaps. The Church hasn’t solved this issue, so I don’t see it as relevant to who has the authority to proclaim the literary form it is in, since the asserted authority hasn’t, either.

It’s not quite that obvious, as in “a noun is a noun.”

And what literary form is the Book of Daniel written in? What about Revelation?

Apocalyptic.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Scripture tells us that the Church (ekklesia) has this authority. It is both taught and demonstrated in Scripture.

Peace
James

Where does Scripture tell us the Church has the authority to say what is and isn’t metaphor?

 

[PRmerger]

The first three chapters, perhaps. The Church hasn’t solved this issue, so I don’t see it as relevant to who has the authority to proclaim the literary form it is in, since the asserted authority hasn’t, either.

It speaks to the fact that, unlike “a noun is a noun”, literary style is not that objectively discerned.

I don’t know anyone past 5th grade who will disagree that “tree” is a noun.

Apocalyptic.

What about the Christian denominations who don’t view it as “apocalyptic”? And what does “apocalyptic” mean, as far as literary genre?

 

[PRmerger]

Where does Scripture tell us the Church has the authority to say what is and isn’t metaphor?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Ubenedictus]

My position is this, if oral tradition contradicts written scripture, which one is right?

Rom 3:4 “God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; …”

sacred tradition never contradicts scripture. Simple and short, never.
Ubenedictus

 

[JRKH]

Where does Scripture tell us the Church has the authority to say what is and isn’t metaphor?

PR has provided one…I shall provide two more…
Mt 18:15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven

Eph 3:8-12
8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him

So in these we see the Holy Spirit telling us that The Church:

• Has Authority to bind and loose - whatever.
• Is the Pillar and foundation of Truth.
• Is God’s instrument for revealing His “manifold wisdom”.

And to reenforce the above, Acts 15, while not dealing with “metaphor” issues, is a clear example of the Church acting in concert with these passages posted above and by PRmerger.

These clearly point to The Church having the authority to teach, which would include discerning what is and is not “metaphor”.

Care to point to any equally clear and compelling bible verses that say the Church does NOT have this authority?

Peace
James

 

[IggyAntiochus]

PR has provided one…I shall provide two more…
Mt 18:15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven

Eph 3:8-12
8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him

So in these we see the Holy Spirit telling us that The Church:

• Has Authority to bind and loose - whatever.
• Is the Pillar and foundation of Truth.
• Is God’s instrument for revealing His “manifold wisdom”.

And to reenforce the above, Acts 15, while not dealing with “metaphor” issues, is a clear example of the Church acting in concert with these passages posted above and by PRmerger.

These clearly point to The Church having the authority to teach, which would include discerning what is and is not “metaphor”.

Care to point to any equally clear and compelling bible verses that say the Church does NOT have this authority?

Peace
James

I cannot disprove a negative, with biblical verses. Why should I trust the Roman Catholic interpretation of any of those above passages, seeing as how subjective it is and all?

 

[JRKH]

I cannot disprove a negative, with biblical verses.

I’m not sure what you are saying here. What “negative” have I given. You asked , “Where does Scripture tell us the Church has the authority to say what is and isn’t metaphor?”
PR and I responded with Scripture - very positive Scripture - showing that the Church does indeed have authority…I see nothing “Negative” in this to be disproved.
What I then asked of you is to share, if you have them, “any equally clear and compelling bible verses that say the Church does NOT have this authority”.
It appears that you do not have any…Which is fine…I’ve never found any either.

Why should I trust the Roman Catholic interpretation of any of those above passages, seeing as how subjective it is and all?

For the moment let’s just say I am not asking you to trust the RC interpretation of these passages.

I fail to see what is subjective about the references provided, especially since you admit that you cannot supply equally compelling passages for another view.

The fact remains that these passages exist in Scripture - Scripture that (I believe) we agree is the inspired word of God.
The fact also remains that these passages clearly point to a visible and authoritative Church able to bind and loose etc. Certainly the Holy Spirit has not told us any different.

NT Scripture contains a number of calls to unity…
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.
The whole of the NT points to unity. The visible authoritative Church is a natural outgrowth of the proper desire for unity.

Again - I fail to see what is so “subjective” about these things.

Peace
James

 

[IggyAntiochus]

I’m not sure what you are saying here. What “negative” have I given. You asked , “Where does Scripture tell us the Church has the authority to say what is and isn’t metaphor?”

According to your presupposition that the term “church” in Scripture references, only and singularly, the bishops of the church of Christ. Is this how church is used in Scripture? Or does it refer to the entirety of the called out saints? The negative is that you are asking me to disprove that the church, understood as the magisterium, does not have the authority to interpret Scripture. The negative is that such an entity does not exist in Scripture, as understood by modern Roman Catholicism.

For the moment let’s just say I am not asking you to trust the RC interpretation of these passages.

I fail to see what is subjective about the references provided, especially since you admit that you cannot supply equally compelling passages for another view.

The fact remains that these passages exist in Scripture - Scripture that (I believe) we agree is the inspired word of God.
The fact also remains that these passages clearly point to a visible and authoritative Church able to bind and loose etc. Certainly the Holy Spirit has not told us any different.

Again - I fail to see what is so “subjective” about these things.

Peace
James

You don’t see what is subjective about them because you are presupposing that your reading of the text is grounded in the objective truth that the church spoken of in your citations is the Pope, together with the magisterium. That is not the presupposition that I bring to texts of Scripture that reference the church. You see, the subjectivity is that when you quote those texts, here is how you read them:

John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be in communion with the bishop of Rome; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may agree with the magisterium to glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you with the magisterium, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

1 Tim. 3:15: But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the Pope, together with the magisterium, of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the bishops; and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven

Eph 3:8-12
8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 that through the Pope, together with the bishops the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

So in these we see the Holy Spirit telling us that The Pope, and the bishops:

• Has Authority to bind and loose - whatever.
• Is the Pillar and foundation of Truth.
• Is God’s instrument for revealing His “manifold wisdom”.

And to reenforce the above, Acts 15, while not dealing with “metaphor” issues, is a clear example of the Church acting in concert with these passages posted above and by PRmerger.

James

 

[JRKH]

Iggy,
Thank you for the clarification. Very enlightening however - not quite accurate.

According to your presupposition that the term “church” in Scripture references, only and singularly, the bishops of the church of Christ.

The primary inaccuracy here is that you are making a presupposition here that is not in evidence. True I am a Catholic in communion with Rome but it does not mean that I am unable to divorce myself from that and discuss Scripture on it’s own merits (tied in also with early Church history).
In fact, it is Scripture that led me back to the Catholic Church rather than my return to the Church coloring how I read Scripture.

Is this how church is used in Scripture? Or does it refer to the entirety of the called out saints?

It is my firm belief that the use of Church (Ekklesia) refers to the community as a whole. After all, “Ekklesia” IS an assembly, called out for the purposes of (among other things) deliberating and taking counsel one with the other.
Perhaps we should take this as our jumping off point…

The negative is that you are asking me to disprove that the church, understood as the magisterium, does not have the authority to interpret Scripture. The negative is that such an entity does not exist in Scripture, as understood by modern Roman Catholicism.

But you see - I have not asked you to disprove this I merely asked you to provide evidence - biblical evidence that says “The Church” (the bibles words) does NOT have authority to “bind and loose - whatever” (again - the bible’s words).

So - Setting aside the RC - look at Scripture and ask prayerfully ask yourself if what I posted is true or not.
Does The bible say that the Church has authority or not?
Does The bible say we are to “listen to the Church” or not?
Did the council of Jerusalem act with Authority over a distant community or not?

After this - after coming to recognize what Scripture actually says -
THEN we can begin to discuss the best way for a large, far-flung and diverse ekklesia to safeguard the Truths of the Gospel. Things like:
What role local communities play,
When things need to be handled at larger councils,
The advantages of having well trained representatives and leaders at such councils,
How to best codify, protect, defend and disseminate the decisions reached by the ekklesia so as to teach the Truth of the Gospel at all times and in all places.

But these things cannot be examined in their proper light until one recognizes that Holy Spirit inspired Scripture clearly states that Christ has given authority to His Church - Ekklesia…

So - I’ll make a deal with you.
If you will not assume that I am reading “Catholic” into the word “Church”, I will assume that you are not reading “anything but Catholic” into the word Church…Deal?

Peace
James

 

[davidmlamb]

Thank you!

I have another Question.

Are there any Historical Inaccuracies in the books of the Apocrypha? I know the Bible is accurate. is the history in the Apocrypha accurate as well?

The book of Jonah is not hystorically accurate (or even true) and neither is the story of Noah’s flood which was borrowed from older writings such as Gilgamesh. They are stories that communicate a spiritual truth. Inspired writings need not be historically accurate. That is a Protestant misconception.

Peace,
David

 

[Publisher]

The book of Jonah is not hystorically accurate (or even true) and neither is the story of Noah’s flood which was borrowed from older writings such as Gilgamesh. They are stories that communicate a spiritual truth. Inspired writings need not be historically accurate. That is a Protestant misconception.

Peace,
David

It is doubtful that Ruth is historical…it was written centuries after it’s supposed to have happened…probably around the time Jonah was written…and with a similar purpose.

 

[Makko52]

The book of Jonah is not hystorically accurate (or even true) and neither is the story of Noah’s flood which was borrowed from older writings such as Gilgamesh. They are stories that communicate a spiritual truth. Inspired writings need not be historically accurate. That is a Protestant misconception.

Peace,
David

if we were to follow that logic then, it would not matter whether or not Jesus was acutually born of a virgin. It would not matter wheter he really ressurected or not.

 

[PRmerger]

if we were to follow that logic then, it would not matter whether or not Jesus was acutually born of a virgin. It would not matter wheter he really ressurected or not.

How so? We know these things to be literally true, thanks to the guidance of the Church.

 

[Makko52]

How so? We know these things to be literally true, thanks to the guidance of the Church.

if the bible is not true, then all we have is what other people say is true.

 

[JustaServant]

if we were to follow that logic then, it would not matter whether or not Jesus was acutually born of a virgin. It would not matter wheter he really ressurected or not.

That’s all or nothing thinking.

 

[Makko52]

That’s all or nothing thinking.

The Scripture has to be true becuase it come from God. to lie is to sin. God is light and in him is no darkness. God cannot sit. So the everything that is in the bible is a true account of what happend. EVERYTHING.

 

[JustaServant]

The Scripture has to be true becuase it come from God. to lie is to sin. God is light and in him is no darkness. God cannot sin. So the everything that is in the bible is a true account of what happend. EVERYTHING.

Noooo, a story is not a ‘lie’, its fiction designed to teach a spiritual truth. A lie is to distort facts.
All-or-nothing thinking is a cognitive distortion or everything must be in black and white. Thinking purely in extremes. I.e. If Noah didn’t build an ark and the WHOLE world was not flooded, then its a lie and everything else in the Bible is a lie.
In building the wrong foundation (everything in the Bible ACTUALLY happened in the EXACT way it is depicted) you set yourself up as an expert on stories written thousands of years ago that YOU did not write and have no claim as to it’s accuracy. And as a result totally miss the point of the stories themselves.

 

[Makko52]

Noooo, a story is not a ‘lie’, its fiction designed to teach a spiritual truth. A lie is to distort facts.
All-or-nothing thinking is a cognitive distortion or everything must be in black and white. Thinking purely in extremes. I.e. If Noah didn’t build an ark and the WHOLE world was not flooded, then its a lie and everything else in the Bible is a lie.
In building the wrong foundation (everything in the Bible ACTUALLY happened in the EXACT way it is depicted) you set yourself up as an expert on stories written thousands of years ago that YOU did not write and have no claim as to it’s accuracy. And as a result totally miss the point of the stories themselves.

Interesting view, i wanted to point somethign out that i left out. The way the bible says somethign happends is the way it happend. Parables that our Lord Jesus used is exactly that a parable. but unless it is a parable we can have confidence that it happend that way because God said it did.

 

[PRmerger]

if the bible is not true, then all we have is what other people say is true.

Makko, you do realize that your trust in the bible is based on “what other people” have said, right?

That is, you would not know, of your own authority, that the Gospel of Mark is inspired. You take it as inspired because of “what other people” said–*Catholic *people. Catholic bishops, to be exact.