MERGED: Should I stay kneeling?/Parish practices

[Newbie2]

Obviously arthritis or other medical condition would preclude one from kneeling. Those who are able should indeed kneel. If you could would you stand if our Lord came to us again and appeared in front of you at Mass in our bodily form? Standing certainly would not be reverential to the one who created us and gave us our being.

Kneeling is extremely important! The GIRM even states we HAVE to kneel (for those who can of course) during the consecration. It truly sickens me when people stand. They are clueless of what the Transubstation really is.

So you agree we must approach the Eucharist with reverence but don’t feel that the actual changing of bread and wine to the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ our Savior dictates a reverential posture?

I am getting almost as upset as Mother Angelica did in one of her discussions on the subject.

We don’t have kneelers in our parish and it’s very difficult if not impossible to kneel because the rows or chairs are so very close.

That last sentence of yours was presumptuous don’t you think? Lets see…

You are correct about the Pharisees. The Lord rejected the people obeying the law IN VAIN. They felt that because they obeyed a law that God owed them something. I hope you are not asserting that that is my contention. We kneel because we love and adore our Lord! Big difference than the Pharisee.

Jesus says that he who is faithful in little things, can be trusted with much more (Mt 25:21; Lk 16:10). Scripture also tells us that Jesus is concerned with every iota and every dot of the law and that it’s not a good thing to relax even the least of the commandments (Mat 5:18-19). So, even though it may be a “little thing,” should we not strive to be faithful in all things?

We are also to obey the Church. In this regard the Church has dictated that it is proper to kneel during the Consecration.

Does it not say in the bible that, "Every knee shall bend before the Lord."

And the priest stands because he is at the altar. It would be pretty odd to see him kneeling while consectrating don’t you think?

If one truly loved our Lord, I don’t know if one would be able to refrain from falling to one’s knees in adoration. We stand for the singing of the national anthem and while waiting in line for a half cappucino not before our Lord and Savior and the Real Presence is He.

We have to be careful when cherry-picking verses out of Scripture to support our points. The Church allows those who physically cannot kneel to not kneel. This would seem, if one takes your scripture passage as you seem to use it, that the Church and Scripture are at odds regarding kneeling.

But your point is taken, there’s a good reason for kneeling when we are directed to do so.

 

[Evan]

Does it not say in the bible that, “Every knee shall bend before the Lord.”

I’ve also heard the argument for standing during the Consecration taken from the words of the Second Eucharistic Prayer in which the priest prays to the Father, “We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you.”

 

[FNDRB58]

We don’t have kneelers in our parish and it’s very difficult if not impossible to kneel because the rows or chairs are so very close.

We have to be careful when cherry-picking verses out of Scripture to support our points. The Church allows those who physically cannot kneel to not kneel. This would seem, if one takes your scripture passage as you seem to use it, that the Church and Scripture are at odds regarding kneeling.

But your point is taken, there’s a good reason for kneeling when we are directed to do so.

Of course if someone is physically incabable of kneeling then the verse would preclude them from doing so. That’s a given. I didn’t think I would have had to explain that in my commentary but that it would be readily understood. Wasn’t it Paul who said that verse? Do you think he was making the claim that those with disabilities still had to? One should not presume I was also making that claim.

We have a church that took out the kneelers also…they dislike people kneeling to our Lord so much that they actually prohibit one from doing so by removing them…a horrible abuse IMHO!. I have not returned to that church. If your church hates you kneeling to the Real Presence during the Cconsecration then that is a horrible abuse and I would go to another parish that obeys the Church’s rubrics.

 

[FNDRB58]

I’ve also heard the argument for standing during the Consecration taken from the words of the Second Eucharistic Prayer in which the priest prays to the Father, “We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you.”

Yes, but it also says to kneel…so we must discern through the authoritative teaching of the Church what to do and the Church says to kneel…common sense would also dictate that we at the very moment of the Transsubstatiation that this would be the moment to do so…I don’t think Jesus would want us to remain kneeling forever.

 

[Evan]

Yes, but it also says to kneel…so we must discern through the authoritative teaching of the Church what to do and the Church says to kneel…common sense would also dictate that we at the very moment of the Transsubstatiation that this would be the moment to do so…I don’t think Jesus would want us to remain kneeling forever.

I agree. This was to counter the idea that we can pick a verse of scripture and say: So there, we must kneel because the next person will pick a verse from the mass and : So there, we must stand. We must look at what posture is

1. Culturally respectful
2. Appropriate to the situation (space, location, personal ability, etc)
3. Canonically allowed

unless it has been canonically mandated.

If a posture has been suggested by the bishop we must discerne if his suggestion is the most proper in the situation. What gets most confusing is if the Vatican allows diversity, the bishop commands uniformity and the priest requests a variation from one or the other or both AND you are in a new country and don’t know the culture well. What to do. It can be quite difficult.

For example: This weekend we will be making the annual pilgrimage to Our Lady of Perpetual Help shrine at St George’s Byzantine Catholic church and attending the Divine Liturgy. So… in that culture do you stand, kneel, sit during different times. The place is filled with Roman Catholics so it is often difficult to see what the Byzantine Catholics are doing. Do I use my culture or the Byzantine Culture to identify the proper posture. I may be in my Diocese, but not in my Eparchy since they overlap physically.

I’ll try to get together with a friend and be reminded of the proper postures before the Liturgy. But it’s not simple. But the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is a beautiful thing

 

[ConstantineTG]

And you don’t have to but SHOULD kneel during the Agnus Dei as the Real Presence is being raised before us…again…common sense.

The Agnus Dei starts with the people standing and proclaiming it, “Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world…”. The priest would also perform The Fraction at this time. Then the people would kneel for the Communion Prayer, “This is Jesus Christ…” and raises the Body and Blood of our Lord. That is when we sould be kneeling.

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve also heard the argument for standing during the Consecration taken from the words of the Second Eucharistic Prayer in which the priest prays to the Father, “We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you.”

This line doesn’t occur until after the Consecration. In Canada and in most countries, the congregation is standing, by this time, after kneeling through the Consecration itself.

The only place people would still be kneeling at this time is in the United States.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This line doesn’t occur until after the Consecration. In Canada and in most countries, the congregation is standing, by this time, after kneeling through the Consecration itself.

The only place people would still be kneeling at this time is in the United States.

We kneel until the great Amen
Frankly, I like it better that way. Up-down-up-down is very confusing.

 

[otjm]

Obviously arthritis or other medical condition would preclude one from kneeling. Those who are able should indeed kneel. If you could would you stand if our Lord came to us again and appeared in front of you at Mass in our bodily form? Standing certainly would not be reverential to the one who created us and gave us our being.

:

Oh, and then why is it that we stand during the Gospel? It was consdered reverential prior to the OF being promulgated…

Both kneeling and standing are a sign of reverence. Kneeling is more indicative of a penitential posture, which has its place; standing is a sign of honor, which also has its place.

For the life of me, I can’t see why, if a bishop is given the authority to set a standard of posture, why we cannot comply and why, in the absence of a change from the GIRM, we can’t follow the GIRM. It baffles me when those who propose they are traditionalists find it necessary to play the same card of cafeteria Catholicism that the liberals want to play; especially when they do it in the name of their own perceived understanding of reverence - that is the same exact card the liberals play.

 

[FNDRB58]

The Agnus Dei starts with the people standing and proclaiming it, “Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world…”. The priest would also perform The Fraction at this time. Then the people would kneel for the Communion Prayer, “This is Jesus Christ…” and raises the Body and Blood of our Lord. That is when we sould be kneeling.

Thank you. I mispoke. I meant to say after as I had said in a previous post of mine.

 

[FNDRB58]

Oh, and then why is it that we stand during the Gospel? It was consdered reverential prior to the OF being promulgated…

Both kneeling and standing are a sign of reverence. Kneeling is more indicative of a penitential posture, which has its place; standing is a sign of honor, which also has its place.

For the life of me, I can’t see why, if a bishop is given the authority to set a standard of posture, why we cannot comply and why, in the absence of a change from the GIRM, we can’t follow the GIRM. It baffles me when those who propose they are traditionalists find it necessary to play the same card of cafeteria Catholicism that the liberals want to play; especially when they do it in the name of their own perceived understanding of reverence - that is the same exact card the liberals play.

We stand during the Gospel because it is the word of God and we indeed honor that but it is not the Real Presence of our Lord.

I notice the word adoration was never mentioned in your comments…just reverence and honor. At what point is your posture one of adoration?

Kneeling is more indicative of adoration and humility. Standing is an act of honor, yes, but not an act of humility - standing as an act of adoration is a matter of debate and I would say a resounding niet! We are not at church just to honor Christ but also to adore Him. Some will honor Oprah by standing when she finishes her last show…(some people will I’d imagine). We get on our knees for Christ as the Vatican says and as the U.S. bishops say, at least at the Consecration. None of them say otherwise, so to stand would indeed be playing cafeteria Catholic. As far as kneeling after the Agnus Dei while Jesus is being raised before us, the bishops have said that it is optional. They give me the option of kneeling so I am indeed not being a cafeteria Catholic if I am exercising that option. I am strongly suggesting that Catholics kneel in adoration and humility to our Lord in the Real Presence. I am in good company as I would imagine every saint would do the same; Mother Angelica does it. Most every nun or brother in a nunnery or monastery does it, Mother Teresa did it. Every Pope expects it. Would you disagree? In fact, Pope Benedict now requires that all faithful who approach him for communion MUST now kneel. He is no longer giving communion to those standing. Would you put him in your “traditional” category?

 

[callmeChris]

Listen, the Holy Sacrifice isn’t a show, or community gathering…It is your becoming one with the Lord. It is offering yourself as he offered himself to the Father.
Many people (even priests) tend to suit the Holy sacrifice to their liking, Some dont even follow the rubrics from what I’ve been told. They do something that THEY think is correct but in the eyes of the Church it isnt.
I can care less if altar rails arent there, Im 16 and I am willing to get down on my knees on that hard/dirty marble floor just to do something some people for some reason are embarrassed to do.
So with this being said, continue to kneel before Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice, and believe me others will follow:thumbsup:

 

[Newbie2]

Of course if someone is physically incabable of kneeling then the verse would preclude them from doing so. That’s a given. I didn’t think I would have had to explain that in my commentary but that it would be readily understood. Wasn’t it Paul who said that verse? Do you think he was making the claim that those with disabilities still had to? One should not presume I was also making that claim.

We have a church that took out the kneelers also…they dislike people kneeling to our Lord so much that they actually prohibit one from doing so by removing them…a horrible abuse IMHO!. I have not returned to that church. If your church hates you kneeling to the Real Presence during the Cconsecration then that is a horrible abuse and I would go to another parish that obeys the Church’s rubrics.

In our case we never had kneelers. There was limited room for chairs and it was a choice between fewer chairs or kneelers. In our case it was a matter of practicality, not of a decision to discourage kneeling.

 

[OraLabora]

I can care less if altar rails arent there, Im 16 and I am willing to get down on my knees on that hard/dirty marble floor just to do something some people for some reason are embarrassed to do.

Reverse those digits and I think you will find that the reason most people of that age don’t get down on that hard dirty marble floor has nothing to do with embarrassment…

 

[bradwilcox]

After receiving, I will remain kneeling while Father not only places hosts back in the tabernacle but also while there is still Blood on the altar. The latter takes longer to deal with for Father. Most parishioners slam their kneelers and relax while there is still Blood on the altar. The Blood is Him as much as the host is.

Everything else is just p.c. pablum.

If the church and people were still incensed and sprinkled, I suspect the fallen angles who are otherwise free to be there would flee, and not be so oppressive to the people, and the people would instantly experience softening of heart in terms of the ability to revere.

 

[otjm]

We stand during the Gospel because it is the word of God and we indeed honor that but it is not the Real Presence of our Lord.

I notice the word adoration was never mentioned in your comments…just reverence and honor. At what point is your posture one of adoration?

That depends at least in part on culture; if one is in a culture where adoration is shown by standing, then one stands to adore. The culture in the Roman rite was to kneel to adore, and given the amount of time that standing has been occurring, it can be argued that according to Church law it has become a norm. Others can argue otherwise.

As far as kneeling after the Agnus Dei while Jesus is being raised before us, the bishops have said that it is optional. They give me the option of kneeling so I am indeed not being a cafeteria Catholic if I am exercising that option. I am strongly suggesting that Catholics kneel in adoration and humility to our Lord in the Real Presence. I am in good company as I would imagine every saint would do the same; Mother Angelica does it. Most every nun or brother in a nunnery or monastery does it, Mother Teresa did it. Every Pope expects it. Would you disagree?

I would disagree to the extent that the bishop has an option from Rome to determine when people will stand (e.g. during the Agnus Dei and into Communion). As Rome has granted the bishop that right and the bishop is in charge of the liturgy in his diocese, then he is the legitimate authority to decide the issue. Choosing to do other than what the bishop has indicated is to play the same exact card the liberals play - they choose to differently based on their “feelings” and their perception of “correct piety”. It is not that awfully difficult to follow the bishop’s legitimate direction. However, there are those on both sides of the coin who determine that their own personal vie of piety dicates otherwise. One of the significant problems we have had for the last 40 years has been a lack of willingness to follow what lead Rome gives us; and when Rome specifically gives the bishop authority and he exercises it, it amazes me the amount of people who can’t follow.

In fact, Pope Benedict now requires that all faithful who approach him for communion MUST now kneel. He is no longer giving communion to those standing. Would you put him in your “traditional” category?

Pope Benedict follows the universal norm of the Roman rite. Why would anyone possibly be surprised, since he is pope of the world, not pope of North America? I would not expect him to follow an indult. And people keep throwing that out there as if it means that he is rejecting the indult. Common sense would say that he doesn’t follow the indult since he is haed of the universal Church. But then, common sense is not all that common.

And as to the fact that he does not distribute to anyone standing, unless and until someone shows an incident where he refused Communion to one standing (which clearly is a violation of Canon law), the point is not made. The only point that can be made is that people receiving from him are requested to kneel, and they do so. It does not flow from that fact that if one were to approach him and stand, that he would refuse to communicate.

 

[callmeChris]

Reverse those digits and I think you will find that the reason most people of that age don’t get down on that hard dirty marble floor has nothing to do with embarrassment…

Oh yes that I understand. Many old people shouldn’t be obliged to kneel if they physically cant. But to those who can, no excuse should be given

 

[ConvertaKat]

Of course if someone is physically incabable of kneeling then the verse would preclude them from doing so. That’s a given. I didn’t think I would have had to explain that in my commentary but that it would be readily understood. Wasn’t it Paul who said that verse? Do you think he was making the claim that those with disabilities still had to? One should not presume I was also making that claim.

We have a church that took out the kneelers also…they dislike people kneeling to our Lord so much that they actually prohibit one from doing so by removing them…a horrible abuse IMHO!. I have not returned to that church. If your church hates you kneeling to the Real Presence during the Cconsecration then that is a horrible abuse and I would go to another parish that obeys the Church’s rubrics.

Whoooahhh!! That is HARSH, taking out the kneelers! We should pray for that church and its local leaders!

 

[FNDRB58]

That depends at least in part on culture; if one is in a culture where adoration is shown by standing, then one stands to adore. The culture in the Roman rite was to kneel to adore, and given the amount of time that standing has been occurring, it can be argued that according to Church law it has become a norm. Others can argue otherwise.

I would disagree to the extent that the bishop has an option from Rome to determine when people will stand (e.g. during the Agnus Dei and into Communion). As Rome has granted the bishop that right and the bishop is in charge of the liturgy in his diocese, then he is the legitimate authority to decide the issue. Choosing to do other than what the bishop has indicated is to play the same exact card the liberals play - they choose to differently based on their “feelings” and their perception of “correct piety”. It is not that awfully difficult to follow the bishop’s legitimate direction. However, there are those on both sides of the coin who determine that their own personal vie of piety dicates otherwise. One of the significant problems we have had for the last 40 years has been a lack of willingness to follow what lead Rome gives us; and when Rome specifically gives the bishop authority and he exercises it, it amazes me the amount of people who can’t follow.Pope Benedict follows the universal norm of the Roman rite. Why would anyone possibly be surprised, since he is pope of the world, not pope of North America? I would not expect him to follow an indult. And people keep throwing that out there as if it means that he is rejecting the indult. Common sense would say that he doesn’t follow the indult since he is haed of the universal Church. But then, common sense is not all that common.

And as to the fact that he does not distribute to anyone standing, unless and until someone shows an incident where he refused Communion to one standing (which clearly is a violation of Canon law), the point is not made. The only point that can be made is that people receiving from him are requested to kneel, and they do so. It does not flow from that fact that if one were to approach him and stand, that he would refuse to communicate.

You doubt it but it is the fact. The U.S. Bishops state explicitly to kneel during the Consecration and give the option to kneel or stand after the Angus Dei. I am encouraging those to option for kneeling as I feel it is most appropriate as does many prominent Catholics in our time. So we are not playing cafetera Catholic as has been charged. Those who refuse to kneel during the Consecration are the ones who are liberal and playing that hand. The rules are in the GIRM and have been posted earlier. Take a look there and you will see the rules.

It is only to those of the Roman right to whom I am speaking in this matter.

It is my understanding that the Pope WILL NOT distribute Communion to one who is standing. Anyone want to test him? I doubt any will.

Here is an article… newsblaze.com/story/20090801065749zzzz.nb/topstory.html

 

[FNDRB58]

Whoooahhh!! That is HARSH, taking out the kneelers! We should pray for that church and its local leaders!

This sounds like sarcasm. Surely, you can respond with a more intelligent response to my comments that could contribute to this discussion.