MERGED: Should I stay kneeling?/Parish practices

[StTommyMore]

Whoooahhh!! That is HARSH, taking out the kneelers! We should pray for that church and its local leaders!

One of the parishes in my area has no kneelers. The Tabernacle is also in a side room, the Crucifix is a gaudy “Resurrection” Crucifix, the “altar” is a table, and the nave is virtually devoid of images. I attended Mass there once. ONCE. Thankfully the other parishes in my area that I have been to are beautiful old buildings with ornate images, kneelers and a prominent tabernacle.

Here are some pictures of my home parish!

 

[otjm]

You doubt it but it is the fact. The U.S. Bishops state explicitly to kneel during the Consecration and give the option to kneel or stand after the Angus Dei. I am encouraging those to option for kneeling as I feel it is most appropriate as does many prominent Catholics in our time. So we are not playing cafetera Catholic as has been charged. Those who refuse to kneel during the Consecration are the ones who are liberal and playing that hand. The rules are in the GIRM and have been posted earlier. Take a look there and you will see the rules.

I have read the GIRM and more than several times. I am also aware that in our archdiocese, the archbishop has stated that we are to stand from the Agnus Dei into Communion. That is also his right as the liturgical head of the diocese and per Rome. As a result, I stand. I can understand someone who says it feels funny, or that they feel it more reverent to kneel at that time. However, my archbishop is the spiritual head of this diocese and I owe him the obedience his office demands, whether I think his decision wise or not. I don’t have to play Philadelphia lawyer with the issue. He said it, I do it. And as my saintly grandmother was wont to say, “offer it up”.

I was not addressing the issue of the Consecration, if you care to read my post again. The United States has an indult for the length of time we kneel (longer than the Universal Church) and I follow the indult. So does our archbishop.

It is my understanding that the Pope WILL NOT distribute Communion to one who is standing. Anyone want to test him? I doubt any will.

Here is an article… newsblaze.com/story/20090801065749zzzz.nb/topstory.html

The issue of kneeling to receive Communion was responded to by Rome. Where Communion was to be standing, some priests were refusing to give Communion to those who knelt and Rome very specifically said that withholding Communion is a specific and serious penalty under Canon law and is not under any circumstances (concerning posture) to be invoked.

I really and truly doubt that the Pope himself is going to invoke a serious canonical penalty of refusing Communion to someone who stands. I agree with you that in public Masses it has been made clear that those who approach the Pope to receive are to kneel, and that I too seriously doubt that anyone will stand - unless physically they cannot kneel. The likelihood of such an incident occurring is very low, and unless and until such an incident occurs and we see the result, it is specious to suggest that the Pope is going to invoke a serious canonical penalty in contravention to Canon law.

Articles by reporters to the contrary - most reporters are notoriously ignorant of a lot of issues in the Church and overstate, understate, and mis-state issues about the Church on a regular and ongoing basis.

 

[Brendan]

I have read the GIRM and more than several times. I am also aware that in our archdiocese, the archbishop has stated that we are to stand from the Agnus Dei into Communion. That is also his right as the liturgical head of the diocese and per Rome. .

Actually, not quite. Rome allowed the Bishop’s Conference to specify a postion. The USCCB, as a body, voted to allow the individual faithful to sit, kneel or stand.

That is plan from the public minutes on the vote. Then Bishop (not ArchBishop) Alan Vigneron specifically asked if the GIRM intended to restrict the faithful from kneeling after they returned to their pew. The Secretariat assured him that was not the intent of the GIRM. An official question was posed to the Vatican on behalf of the US Bishops to further clarify that. And the response was that the faithful may freely choose their position.

St. Thomas Aquinas defined the Virtue of Obedience as the conformation of the will towards the will of one who has the authority.

Rome has delegated the USCCB to be the authority in this matter, so any personal kneeling would not be a violation of an obedience due to the office of bishop.

 

[otjm]

Actually, not quite. Rome allowed the Bishop’s Conference to specify a postion. The USCCB, as a body, voted to allow the individual faithful to sit, kneel or stand.

That is plan from the public minutes on the vote. Then Bishop (not ArchBishop) Alan Vigneron specifically asked if the GIRM intended to restrict the faithful from kneeling after they returned to their pew. The Secretariat assured him that was not the intent of the GIRM. An official question was posed to the Vatican on behalf of the US Bishops to further clarify that. And the response was that the faithful may freely choose their position.

St. Thomas Aquinas defined the Virtue of Obedience as the conformation of the will towards the will of one who has the authority.

Rome has delegated the USCCB to be the authority in this matter, so any personal kneeling would not be a violation of an obedience due to the office of bishop.

I think you and I are talking about a couple of different issues. The dubium you mention specifically has to do with the issue of the posture of inividuals after they have received Communion and before all of the rest of the congregation has received.

I was speaking of the period between the Agnus Dei and the start of the reception of Communion.

Our Archbishop has not requested nor required that all stand during the reception of Communion; however, all are standing as it starts, and as they return to their pews, most are kneeling.

 

[YADA]

Along these lines… After Communion everyone usually stays kneeling until the priest takes his seat. I recently heard we can sit once the Blessed Sacrament has been put into the Tabernacle. This makes sense since we are showing reverence to the Eucharist - not the priest. Right?

Like you - My preference after having received is to return to our pew and kneel - and remain so until the Blessed Sacrament has been returned to the Tabernacle … as does the majority of my parish … Our priest instructs in the same manner as the GIRM - te faithful kneel through the great Amen - and then stand until Communion eing then free to return to their place and take the posture they feel is most spiritually beneficial … I have no problem with those who sit or those who stand … nor tdo i perceive myself as more pious …

However, I do perceive a problem with how you describe it here … “showing reverence to the Eucharist” … this illustrates a disconnect with the very act of recieving Jesus in the Eucharist … Jesus is not held hostage in the Eucharist - He is not kept captive in the Tabernacle … In point of fact - once the faithful have received Communion - we become - we are - Tabernacles of the Lord … Jesus is no more uniquely present in the Communion Cup [as one poster stated] still on the Altar then He is in each of us - sitting, kneeling or standing … Jesus is in us … and we are “united” [hence ‘in communion’] with each other …

If your focus remains on the Jesus in the Tabernalce and not the Jesus in yourself and the person next to you - how can you take Jesus out to the World ? - How can you go forth to serve and share the Gospel message? …

 

[FNDRB58]

Like you - My preference after having received is to return to our pew and kneel - and remain so until the Blessed Sacrament has been returned to the Tabernacle … as does the majority of my parish … Our priest instructs in the same manner as the GIRM - te faithful kneel through the great Amen - and then stand until Communion eing then free to return to their place and take the posture they feel is most spiritually beneficial … I have no problem with those who sit or those who stand … nor tdo i perceive myself as more pious …

However, I do perceive a problem with how you describe it here … “showing reverence to the Eucharist” … this illustrates a disconnect with the very act of recieving Jesus in the Eucharist … Jesus is not held hostage in the Eucharist - He is not kept captive in the Tabernacle … In point of fact - once the faithful have received Communion - we become - we are - Tabernacles of the Lord … Jesus is no more uniquely present in the Communion Cup [as one poster stated] still on the Altar then He is in each of us - sitting, kneeling or standing … Jesus is in us … and we are “united” [hence ‘in communion’] with each other …

If your focus remains on the Jesus in the Tabernalce and not the Jesus in yourself and the person next to you - how can you take Jesus out to the World ? - How can you go forth to serve and share the Gospel message? …

I emphatically disagree with your second and third paragraphs…

We adore the Real Presence as it is exposed within the church usually on the altar. We don’t treat it the same way once its consumed within each person. Whether the Eucharist is to be adored while exposed in a monstrance or is exposed during the Mass, it should be adored until it returns to the Tabernacle. Kneeling until it reenters into the Tabernacle is not a rubric but my opinion. I would equate it with us standing and waiting while the priest walks down the aisle and leaves the main sanctuary. Those who leave before hand are being disrespectful.

 

[Brendan]

I think you and I are talking about a couple of different issues. The dubium you mention specifically has to do with the issue of the posture of inividuals after they have received Communion and before all of the rest of the congregation has received.

I was speaking of the period between the Agnus Dei and the start of the reception of Communion…

My apologies

 

[FNDRB58]

otjm,

I do not understand your dissent when we are reading from the same GIRM. It explicitly states that the bishop is given the authority to request that the churches in his diocese stand after the Agnus Dei but it is not mandatory. No one is to be refused to kneel if they choose to do so. So one is not disobedient, nor liberal, nor a cafeteria Catholic, who chooses to exercise that option. If anything, that is conservative and traditional, something Pope Benedict is trying to return to by his desire that communicants who come to him kneel. The Pope supercedes the GIRM, not the other way around. If the Pope deems it appropriate to kneel to the Real Presence then I will be obedient to him.

Standing is not a sign of adoration or humility on this planet. We stand to order a Big Mac. If the Lord or Our Blessed Mother or even an angel were to appear before a Catholic I could not imagine that that individual would just stand there unless he were in shock and didn’t have his wits about him. If our Lord came to us at Mass and stood in bodily form next to the priest, we would fall to our knees in adoration…well, that’s the Real Presence, is it not?

 

[Brendan]

otjm,

I do not understand your dissent when we are reading from the same GIRM. It explicitly states that the bishop is given the authority to request that the churches in his diocese stand after the Agnus Dei but it is not mandatory.

No otjm is correct.

The GIRM declares that the bishop has the authority to specify the position of the faithful from the Agnus Dei, to the personal reception of Holy Communion. The faithful may kneel, sit or stand as they feel AFTER they recieve Holy Communion.

But since the GIRM DOES give the authority for this position to the local Ordinary, Aquinas’ definition of obedience comes into play. If the local ordinary says to stand after the Agnus Dei, then one really is obligated by the virtue of obedience. Not just to the bishop, but to the Church as a whole ( since is was Rome who delegated this particular authority to the local bishop)

 

[FNDRB58]

Yes, I indeed had it wrong regarding the option to stand or kneel after the Agnus Dei. Somehow I got mixed up.

The GIRM states, “The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.” 53

So indeed the Bishop may request otherwise. So to say that one is automatically being disobedient to the Bishop one needs to know what the Bishop is requesting.

Apparently in my diocese the Bishop has determined that one may do either as my church is very traditional and we kneel after the Agnus Dei. Yet some stand. So apparently the option is indeed to do either. If that is the case then I again would strongly encourage parishioners to kneel out of adoration to the Real Presence.

During the consecration we must kneel. Many churches in my diocese do not and that is incorrect.

At some churches the priest asks all to stand after communion. He can’t enforce that according to the GIRM.

I can say that Mother Angelica for one disagrees with standing after the Agnus Dei. And I am in total agreement with her regardless of what the Bishop says. Some bishops are not as traditional as they should be.

 

[MarkThompson]

Standing is not a sign of adoration or humility on this planet. We stand to order a Big Mac.

And we kneel to scrub behind the toilet. Flippant non-sequiturs like that are never very helpful.

 

[StTommyMore]

And we kneel to scrub behind the toilet. Flippant non-sequiturs like that are never very helpful.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

The Priest NEVER kneels after receiving communion. Even if he does not distribute communion himself, he goes and sits in his chair.

There is absolutely no requirement to kneel. If there were, the Priest would have to kneel also.

It does not show any greater reverence to kneel, it is merely a custom. And if YOU feel more reverent kneeling, then by all means kneel. Personal;ly, I feel reverent whether I am kneeling, standing or sitting. You see, what I am doing is not at all important. What IS important is that Jesus is truly within me at that moment in time.

People think that the way that THEY have been trained is the only way to do something. Often, they have been trained poorly, and they are ignorant of the facts.

 

[jmcrae]

The Priest NEVER kneels after receiving communion. Even if he does not distribute communion himself, he goes and sits in his chair.

There is absolutely no requirement to kneel. If there were, the Priest would have to kneel also.

He is a priest; at Mass, he is the Person of Christ. Christ doesn’t have to kneel to Himself.

It does not show any greater reverence to kneel, it is merely a custom. And if YOU feel more reverent kneeling, then by all means kneel. Personally, I feel reverent whether I am kneeling, standing or sitting. You see, what I am doing is not at all important. What IS important is that Jesus is truly within me at that moment in time.

Bully for you. Most of us mortals are physical beings, and what we do with our bodies has an effect on the state of our souls. That’s why we kneel - to dispose our souls to adore Christ.

 

[HCC]

You’ve never been to Los Angeles. Mahony territory here and the edict went out that all are to “stand in unity”.

I feel for you convertakat.

Yes, I’ve read about a number of “bishops,” particularly in CA, who have officially dissented from Catholic teaching by their words, omissions, support of persons and causes.

So, at what point are we obligated to adhere to mandates, especially those that are contrary to the liturgical norms of the Church, given by these men?

If the liturgical “norms” in your parish are coming from a group of lay and religious liturgy “experts” and they are contrary to the rubrics, you have no obligation to follow them. Their words have NO binding whatsoever.

However, if they are coming from a dissenting “bishop” what does one do?

(I chose long ago to attend for the most part TLM to avoid all this nonsense.)

 

[RockoftheAges]

All my life, I have knelt w/ the congregation after the Agnus Dei until receiving Communion. I have recently moved and at parishes here everybody remains standing during this time. On the one hand, I feel that I should kneel as this is general practice at Mass (also it feels more reverent and more readily disposes my heart to receive Jesus). On the other hand, I remember the quote from St Ambrose which says: “When I am at Rome, I fast on a Saturday: when I am at Milan I do not. Do the same. Follow the custom of the church where you are.”

I’m relatively sure this isn’t a vitally important part of Mass, but I would like some advice on what to do in this situation.

Thanks.

 

[SMHW]

All my life, I have knelt w/ the congregation after the Agnus Dei until receiving Communion. I have recently moved and at parishes here everybody remains standing during this time. On the one hand, I feel that I should kneel as this is general practice at Mass (also it feels more reverent and more readily disposes my heart to receive Jesus). On the other hand, I remember the quote from St Ambrose which says: “When I am at Rome, I fast on a Saturday: when I am at Milan I do not. Do the same. Follow the custom of the church where you are.”

I’m relatively sure this isn’t a vitally important part of Mass, but I would like some advice on what to do in this situation.

Thanks.

If you live in the United States, the posture of the people from the Angus Dei until the reception of Communion is one where the bishop has some discretion. If all the parishes in your area observe this posture then it is likely it is the bishop’s decision and you ought to follow it. Outside of the United States, standing is the proper posture.

From the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:

of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53Sanctus**Amenhttp://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect2

 

[ConstantineTG]

All my life, I have knelt w/ the congregation after the Agnus Dei until receiving Communion. I have recently moved and at parishes here everybody remains standing during this time. On the one hand, I feel that I should kneel as this is general practice at Mass (also it feels more reverent and more readily disposes my heart to receive Jesus). On the other hand, I remember the quote from St Ambrose which says: “When I am at Rome, I fast on a Saturday: when I am at Milan I do not. Do the same. Follow the custom of the church where you are.”

I’m relatively sure this isn’t a vitally important part of Mass, but I would like some advice on what to do in this situation.

Thanks.

Its also important to follow the directives of the Church. The GIRM calls for kneeling. The only time I wouldn’t kneel is if I’m in an Eastern Church. I’ve attended a Chaldean Qurbono (Mass) and like most Eastern Churches, they do not kneel. So I stood up for consecration and before and after Communion. Everyone else is standing. I think thats the appropriate time to apply the “When in Rome…” rule. When its a Latin Rite Mass, kneel, when its Eastern, stand.

 

[Apollos]

Solution: Do what everybody else does. There is nothing to be gained by kneeling while everyone else is standing. That sort of behavior will only get you labeled as being out-of-touch or as making a hyperreligious “statement”.

 

[paperwight]

If you live in the United States, the posture of the people from the Angus Dei until the reception of Communion is one where the bishop has some discretion. If all the parishes in your area observe this posture then it is likely it is the bishop’s decision and you ought to follow it. Outside of the United States, standing is the proper posture.

Well, you may be generalising a bit here. It isn’t in the UK, for instance.