MERGED: Singing the Mass by Bishop Olmsted

[christosdavid]

This is a really interesting thread and I really think it’s time for the Church to update its protocols on music and replace the existing ambiguous wordy and contradictory material we now have with something that is clear and concise and sets out exactly what is expected.

It seems to me that this lack of clarity creates tension between priests, musicians and congregations about how best to enhance the liturgy, and this has resulted in the situation we have now where few people join in congregational singing; and where generally Catholic music now has a reputation for being poor and shoddy.

In order for this to succeed though Priests need to spend more time and interest in the music and the norms of the church. I would hope that any document makes clear that we have a great heritage on which to draw on but that this doesn’t need to completely exclude all contemporay sources.

Thus a flagship parish might have a Solemn Latin Mass with all the propers; a sung mass with Polyphonic Ordinary and traditional hymns (and when I say traditional I don’t just mean those by Catholics as most modern hymns are actually written by Catholics) and perhaps a more modern mass with modern mass settings and songs, but done in a way that doesn’t conflict with the beauty of mass. Oh and let’s not just do music for the sake of it and remember to include a spoken mass for those who prefer them.

bring back the polyphonic!!! Mozart, Vittoria, Palestrina…

 

[liturgyluver]

bring back the polyphonic!!! Mozart, Vittoria, Palestrina…

Yes please. My ideal is a Polyphonic choral mass setting, a chanted or choral (rather than responsorial) Psalm, and 3 congregational hymns. But I cannot find this in any Catholic Church.

 

[christosdavid]

Yes please. My ideal is a Polyphonic choral mass setting, a chanted or choral (rather than responsorial) Psalm, and 3 congregational hymns. But I cannot find this in any Catholic Church.

londons a bit far… St. Mary’s Cathedral, Sydney has exactly that… plus the organ recessional

 

[Sarabande]

Yes please. My ideal is a Polyphonic choral mass setting, a chanted or choral (rather than responsorial) Psalm, and 3 congregational hymns. But I cannot find this in any Catholic Church.

There are a few parishes in my diocese that does this. I sang in the choir at our diocese cathedral during my college years and shortly after until I got married in my mid 20s. We did polyphonic masses almost every weekend, tons of motets, congregational hymns. It was the only parish at the time that I knew of in the US which did this, especially with a completely volunteer and very dedicated choir of between 30 and 40 people, most of whom did not read music. I only experienced polyphonic masses during my semester in London before that. But since then, more parishes in my diocese has been working towards this. It’s mostly in the city, though, and it’s with the blessing of the pastor. You can’t get it done if the pastor is not on board. It’s harder to find in the suburbs, but there are a couple out there.

 

[Tigg]

This is so important - not only should the text be appropriate but the music itself should be( as you said) “consistent with tradition”. It needs to be based on styles that are recognizably sacred or “set apart” for liturgical use alone. There are many types of Chant that fulfill this requirement. IMO, some regular style “hymns” fit in as well.

The “folk/pop/rock/whatever” style of music is TOTALLY inappropriate for the Mass, as good as it can be (for some people) in other venues. I don’t understand how this ever happened in the first place. Even if the text is appropriate, the music itself is not sacred. It doesn’t fit in with Catholic worship, or with what we believe as Catholics. It’s very non-Catholic in nature.

I copied this article from NOR a year or so ago and it helps explain…“Why the Music is So Bad,” with a sub-title of “And Why It Will Probably Stay That Way” by Lucy E. Carroll, Adjunct Associate Professor of Music Education at Westminster Choir College.

With the exception of very few Catholic Churches, we all suffer through mediocre, sometimes even theologically incorrect worded hymns. Last Sunday, I wanted to cover my ears to avoid the too-loud, off-key song (I cannot call it a hymn) after Communion. I desperately just wanted to pray to my Lord in Thanksgiving for His precious Body which I had just received, but I found it hard to pray because the Communion hymn was such a distraction.

Again, we learn that the United States Catholic Conference of Bishops is responsible for this sad state of affairs.

Here are some excerpts from her article:

The facts:

• Contrary to popular belief, the Second Vatican Council re-affirmed the use of Latin as the official language of the Roman rite, stated that chant was to be given “pride of place” and that musicians be well trained in seminaries and parishes.

• On 1967 Pope Paul VI approved a document called “Musicam Sacram” that explained the place of music in the “Novus Ordo” (Order of the New Mass.)

• **The document of the Council Fathers, entitled “Sacrosanctum Concilium” stated that the “treasury of sacred music is to be preserved and cultivated with great care.” **This document also stated that in “mission lands” a suitable place should be given to the musical tradition of the native land and it should be held in proper esteem. (After all one would hardly expect to find a pipe organ in a village that had no plumbing or electricity.) This was not a wholesale license to use anything and everything in secular style and instrumentation; rather the intent was quite the contrary.

• In 1972 the American bishops issued a document entitled “Music in Catholic Worship” which completely ignores Musicam Sacram. It states that music, far from having a universality, should have a home town flavor. It states that music ought to be in the hands of non-musicians, chosen by committee and it should be different for different ethnic and age groups, in direct contradiction to Vatican pronouncements.

• In November 2007, the USCCB voted on a revised form of “Music in Catholic Worship.” This revision, entitled “Sing to the Lord” states that Catholics must celebrate their faith in the songs and musical styles of their cultural, ethnic and racial roots. So music publishers must offer multilingual options and thus we are encouraged to be a veritable Tower of Babel, where some understand some and no one understands all. Singling out a couple of cultures over others seems rather inconsiderate to the many ethnic representatives present. It is also quite futile. Can anyone address my ethnic heritage? This is why traditional chant and hymn forms, accompanied by the Latin language are to be preferred: They are accessible to everyone. Common ground is called for, not ethnic divisions.

 

[Sarabande]

]This is a really interesting thread and I really think it’s time for the Church to update its protocols on music and replace the existing ambiguous wordy and contradictory material we now have with something that is clear and concise and sets out exactly what is expected.

It seems to me that this lack of clarity creates tension between priests, musicians and congregations about how best to enhance the liturgy, and this has resulted in the situation we have now where few people join in congregational singing; and where generally Catholic music now has a reputation for being poor and shoddy.

In order for this to succeed though Priests need to spend more time and interest in the music and the norms of the church. I would hope that any document makes clear that we have a great heritage on which to draw on but that this doesn’t need to completely exclude all contemporay sources.

Thus a flagship parish might have a Solemn Latin Mass with all the propers; a sung mass with Polyphonic Ordinary and traditional hymns (and when I say traditional I don’t just mean those by Catholics as most modern hymns are actually written by Catholics) and perhaps a more modern mass with modern mass settings and songs, but done in a way that doesn’t conflict with the beauty of mass. Oh and let’s not just do music for the sake of it and remember to include a spoken mass for those who prefer them.

I completely agree. Everything you have described has contributed to what is happening with liturgical music at mass today. Historically, the Church has always had to “crack down” on the music every once in a while when it would get out of hand. We’ve been through a period where it has gotten out of hand and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Church will once again do a reigning in, but it might be a little more difficult to do than it was in the past partly because people today tend to not like being told what to do. So, educating everyone involved, including the congregations, about why it is being done should be properly implemented.

I also am not against more modern/contemporary mass settings and songs, as there are some which can be refined very nicely to fit into a mass. One of my music directors did this well with a few of these more modern hymns and mass setting. She didn’t follow the actual written accompaniment, but made it more appropriate for an organ and easier for congregational singing. It was the first time I ever heard these hymns done in that manner and at first threw me for a loop because I would be expecting to hear the normal accompaniment. She is Julliard trained in organ (not that it makes her better as I’ve worked with non-degreed organists who are just as awesome, but it does help and she is very good) and her background has been working with traditional and contemporary hymnody and singing from Protestant congregations, so she has really made the music program at that parish grow and the congregation sings even more now than in the past. Again, it helps that the pastor is very supportive of this and brought her in to help make the parish thrive which has been since they both came on board a couple of years ago.

 

[Tigg]

My love and appreciation for good music cannot be stymied. But another point that I find completely disrespectful in the Mass is the music groups that are sometimes brought in. For instance, a couple of months ago, (in our political correctness,) a mariachi band was invited (altho our parish is 99.9% non-Hispanic.) They were fantastic…if I could have bought a ticket to a music concert they would have been my first choice. The trumpets and horns, the xylophone, and the angelic voice of the lead singer were superb! The problem??? It WAS a concert drawing attention away from the Sacrifice of the Mass to mere human entertainment. When the director turned from the group to face the congregation, picked up her horn and began to play, I was praying people would remember where they were and act accordingly. Before Mass was dismissed, they were acknowledged of course, to a resounding round of applause. (And we all know what our Beloved Benedict said about that!) To boot, our bishop was the main celebrant.

 

[liturgyluver]

londons a bit far… St. Mary’s Cathedral, Sydney has exactly that… plus the organ recessional

Wow - when I get there (i hope one day) I know where to go.

 

[Sarabande]

My love and appreciation for good music cannot be stymied. But another point that I find completely disrespectful in the Mass is the music groups that are sometimes brought in. For instance, a couple of months ago, (in our political correctness,) a mariachi band was invited (altho our parish is 99.9% non-Hispanic.) They were fantastic…if I could have bought a ticket to a music concert they would have been my first choice. The trumpets and horns, the xylophone, and the angelic voice of the lead singer were superb! The problem??? It WAS a concert drawing attention away from the Sacrifice of the Mass to mere human entertainment. When the director turned from the group to face the congregation, picked up her horn and began to play, I was praying people would remember where they were and act accordingly. Before Mass was dismissed, they were acknowledged of course, to a resounding round of applause. (And we all know what our Beloved Benedict said about that!) To boot, our bishop was the main celebrant.

Yes, that is a problem and that experience can be made with almost any kind of music, even classical music. I think what adds to it is when the musicians are up front. Bring in choristers from Westminster Choir College, for instance, (a few of my colleagues at the one of the churches I work at are from Westminster) and have them sing a polyphonic mass or Mozart mass in the front rather than from the back and you’ll get a congregation not used to good musicianship and singing applaud them at the end of mass. Just the musicians’ presence in the front, in my opinion, creates the sense of a performance. Now, it doesn’t always stop applause even if the musicians are in the back up in the loft, but I’ve found it less so at the many different parishes I’ve worked in or freelanced in. Also, when a parish is used to higher quality music and the pastor sets the example of no applause, it does help. In the beginning it can be awe-inspiring and people don’t know how to react but to applaud to show their appreciation which I can understand as well.

Not that I think Mariachi music is appropriate for liturgy (I don’t think it is and agree with you that a great mariachi band is really fun to hear) but I wonder if a congregation heard it every week and they were placed in a loft, would they be applauded since they’d be used to it.

 

[superamazingman]

Like I always say, the first step in bringing in truly sacred music into a parish is to remove the hymnals that contain poor-quality music. Pastors need to gain the courage to stand up to strong-willed musicians.

And if there’s strong willed musicians that refuse to comply (like at my parish), then maybe they need some sense knocked into them with a big ol’ pink slip. If anyone else stood up to their boss the way some musicians stand up to traditional pastors they’d be fired before they walked out the door at the end of the day.

They should be servants of the liturgy, and playing haugen and haas ditties is not doing that. And disobeying a pastor who is trying to bring solemnity back is certanly not doing that.

 

[christosdavid]

Wow - when I get there (i hope one day) I know where to go.

Thats whats makes ‘Catholic’, the other side of the world worship with you one day!

 

[liturgyluver]

I completely agree. Everything you have described has contributed to what is happening with liturgical music at mass today. Historically, the Church has always had to “crack down” on the music every once in a while when it would get out of hand. We’ve been through a period where it has gotten out of hand and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Church will once again do a reigning in, but it might be a little more difficult to do than it was in the past partly because people today tend to not like being told what to do. So, educating everyone involved, including the congregations, about why it is being done should be properly implemented.

I also am not against more modern/contemporary mass settings and songs, as there are some which can be refined very nicely to fit into a mass. One of my music directors did this well with a few of these more modern hymns and mass setting. She didn’t follow the actual written accompaniment, but made it more appropriate for an organ and easier for congregational singing. It was the first time I ever heard these hymns done in that manner and at first threw me for a loop because I would be expecting to hear the normal accompaniment. She is Julliard trained in organ (not that it makes her better as I’ve worked with non-degreed organists who are just as awesome, but it does help and she is very good) and her background has been working with traditional and contemporary hymnody and singing from Protestant congregations, so she has really made the music program at that parish grow and the congregation sings even more now than in the past. Again, it helps that the pastor is very supportive of this and brought her in to help make the parish thrive which has been since they both came on board a couple of years ago.

It’s so encouraging to know that its possible to do this. That sounds great.

 

[opus101]

My love and appreciation for good music cannot be stymied. But another point that I find completely disrespectful in the Mass is the music groups that are sometimes brought in. For instance, a couple of months ago, (in our political correctness,) a mariachi band was invited (altho our parish is 99.9% non-Hispanic.) They were fantastic…if I could have bought a ticket to a music concert they would have been my first choice. The trumpets and horns, the xylophone, and the angelic voice of the lead singer were superb! The problem??? It WAS a concert drawing attention away from the Sacrifice of the Mass to mere human entertainment. When the director turned from the group to face the congregation, picked up her horn and began to play, I was praying people would remember where they were and act accordingly. Before Mass was dismissed, they were acknowledged of course, to a resounding round of applause. (And we all know what our Beloved Benedict said about that!) To boot, our bishop was the main celebrant.

OMGsh! That’s incredible!

 

[liturgyluver]

There are a few parishes in my diocese that does this. I sang in the choir at our diocese cathedral during my college years and shortly after until I got married in my mid 20s. We did polyphonic masses almost every weekend, tons of motets, congregational hymns. It was the only parish at the time that I knew of in the US which did this, especially with a completely volunteer and very dedicated choir of between 30 and 40 people, most of whom did not read music. I only experienced polyphonic masses during my semester in London before that. But since then, more parishes in my diocese has been working towards this. It’s mostly in the city, though, and it’s with the blessing of the pastor. You can’t get it done if the pastor is not on board. It’s harder to find in the suburbs, but there are a couple out there.

Hi Sarabande. This is interesting. As you have mentioned above there are some great Catholic choirs in London - Westminster Cathedral is supposed to be the best in the world and is the only Cathedral in the world to sing daily mass and vespers. In fact here is the link to the music list : westminstercathedral.org.uk/music_list.php which is beautiful. The Polyphonic settings and motets are reserved for the 10.30 mass where the propers also are chanted, so at the other 3 sung masses there are congregational settings, and only 1 or 2 hymns.

Farm Street, The Oratory and St James Spanish Place also have great polphonic music but they reserve it solely for their Latin Mass so at one of the other English masses you get hymns but no congregational setting of the ordinary which feels wrong to me. And incidently no-one ever sings any of the hymns in these churches, unlike at Westminster Cathedral.

 

[Cat]

bring back the polyphonic!!! Mozart, Vittoria, Palestrina…

Bring back music education so that children and teenagers will learn to read music and be able to sing Mozart, Vittoria, and Palestrina.

Bring back jobs so that people will have the money to pay for music education either in public schools or in private settings.

I’m very serious. Unless you have a very unusual parish, it is likely that only a small handful of people in your parish would be able to read the music to be able to sing the works of the composers you mentioned.

Some people might be able to learn their parts by ear and actually sing their part along with the other parts. I’m in awe of people who can do this–I have to read music.

But most people would be utterly unable to sing this kind of music either by note or by ear, and I fear that your choir would be extremely small. I think you would see that music by these composers doesn’t sound quite as lovely when the choir consists of only a few people.

I think the answer to a lot of our problems with Mass music is more rigorous music education, beginning of course in families and expanding to both school settings and private settings.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Bring back music education so that children and teenagers will learn to read music and be able to sing Mozart, Vittoria, and Palestrina.

Bring back jobs so that people will have the money to pay for music education either in public schools or in private settings.

I’m very serious. Unless you have a very unusual parish, it is likely that only a small handful of people in your parish would be able to read the music to be able to sing the works of the composers you mentioned.

Some people might be able to learn their parts by ear and actually sing their part along with the other parts. I’m in awe of people who can do this–I have to read music.

But most people would be utterly unable to sing this kind of music either by note or by ear, and I fear that your choir would be extremely small. I think you would see that music by these composers doesn’t sound quite as lovely when the choir consists of only a few people.

I think the answer to a lot of our problems with Mass music is more rigorous music education, beginning of course in families and expanding to both school settings and private settings.

Of course, Cat. And where should this educational revolution start? In my opinion, right at the heart: Catholic schools. The pastor of a parish school in my diocese makes all the kids learn the entire Order of Mass in Latin and English in the sixth grade, and they do it. Now if only they could expand that and foray into the musical realm, by the time the kids are in high school, they could be singing full polyphonic masses! How glorious that would be! What we really have to do is nip these problems in the bud. Of course, public schools (such as I attended, even though the music program was excellent in this case) will be at the mercy of the government and whatever, but Catholic schools, for the most part, can be better controlled if: 1) the school has an unquestionably orthodox Catholic identity and, 2) if the teachers are committed. I’m a hard sciences type of guy myself, but I do see the immense value of a classical education, to include musical education.

 

[Cat]

And if there’s strong willed musicians that refuse to comply (like at my parish), then maybe they need some sense knocked into them with a big ol’ pink slip. If anyone else stood up to their boss the way some musicians stand up to traditional pastors they’d be fired before they walked out the door at the end of the day.

They should be servants of the liturgy, and playing haugen and haas ditties is not doing that. And disobeying a pastor who is trying to bring solemnity back is certanly not doing that.

How can you give parish musicians a “pink slip” when most of the time, they aren’t being paid anything?

And who will you replace them with?

 

[Cat]

Of course, Cat. And where should this educational revolution start? In my opinion, right at the heart: Catholic schools. The pastor of a parish school in my diocese makes all the kids learn the entire Order of Mass in Latin and English in the sixth grade, and they do it. Now if only they could expand that and foray into the musical realm, by the time the kids are in high school, they could be singing full polyphonic masses! How glorious that would be! What we really have to do is nip these problems in the bud. Of course, public schools (such as I attended, even though the music program was excellent in this case) will be at the mercy of the government and whatever, but Catholic schools, for the most part, can be better controlled if: 1) the school has an unquestionably orthodox Catholic identity and, 2) if the teachers are committed. I’m a hard sciences type of guy myself, but I do see the immense value of a classical education, to include musical education.

As I stated in my other post, I believe that a child’s first music education should come from parents and grandparents.

I certainly agree with you that Catholic schools should be providing excellent music education.

The Catholic schools in our city do provide excellent music education.

But it seems that by the time the children grow up and reach high school, most of them are not interested in singing full polyphonic Masses.

Why?

The opportunity is here. We have a Latin Mass parish in our city, and the music director is a good conductor and teacher who plays organ and piano. He’s witty, well-educated, and energetic. There is no reason why teenagers would dislike him.

But he only has about eight people in his schola, and only 1 teenager. Why?

Our parish of about 7000 people has a few teenagers who cantor. But there are no teenagers in our parish choir. Why?

Our music director has a Master’s Degree, and is a skilled conductor, organist, pianist, and singer. He conducted a community choir in Mozart’s Requiem Mass–it was gorgeous. He is extremely well-qualified. He’s personable and fun to work with.

So where are the teenagers? Or for that matter, where are the young adults who grew up in these good Catholic schools, got jobs, and are now adult members of the parish? Why aren’t our teenagers and young adults taking what they learn in their good schools and bringing it to Mass? What’s the disconnect here? Do you have ideas on how this disconnect can be fixed?

I honestly hate raining on parades, but I have to admit to a sense of discouragement and even despair when it comes to Mass music. I hear a lot of wishes tossed around, but no practical plans to turn these wishes into reality.

As for what I’ve done–I started taking pipe organ lessons back in August. I’m an excellent pianist who has accompanied for some very difficult works (I was rehearsal accompanist for the Mozart Requiem).

But at this point, I can’t even play a hymn well enough for a congregation to sing along with. So I doubt I’ll be playing any polyphony, at least on the organ, any time soon. Sigh.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Of course, Cat. And where should this educational revolution start? In my opinion, right at the heart: Catholic schools.

Even better, make it part of CCD. Not all Catholic kids go to Catholic school, but they must go through CCD.

In the Latin tradition, it could/should be an expectation that our young adults preparing for Confirmation are versed (pun intended) in liturgics, including liturgical music.

Let’s face it - that’s the last chance to educate (until they want to marry), and you have them as captive learners preparing for their last sacrament of initiation - seems like the perfect time, age bracket/maturity level and educational setting.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

… and FWIW, since chant is so integral to Eastern tradition, our kids learn it from exposure - every Sunday!

We have Cantors, lay people who lead the responses in the Divine Liturgy and other worship services, yet everyone in the congregation is expected to sing (and most do, even the dreadfully tone deaf). Even if they don’t, they are hearing and absorbing.

I first led responses for an entire Divine Liturgy when I was eleven. My family requested a weekday liturgy intention for a deceased relative, and the Cantor could not make it due to a last minute conflict. I was an altar server at the time. I stood next to the altar. The priest chanted the opening blessing, and simply glanced over at me, waiting for the response. The rest is history. Thirty five years later, I still doing the job!

Here’s a great video of one of the youngest cantors in our Eastern Christian churches: Christos Voskrese (Christ is Risen) - youngest ACROD cantor (and he is chanting in perfectly enunciated Old Church Slavonic, our Latin)

Point being, its not that hard to teach when proper liturgical tradition is a constant in the Liturgy, as it is in the Eastern Churches.

Peace be with you!