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opus101
Guest
Countertenor, I agree with much in this excellent post. But I did want to discuss one aspect, namely that in the bold letters above. I"m not sure what you were referring to, and it has been my experience in Music History classes that this wasn’t so… and every time it did happen, it was eventually addressed and corrected by the Church. Maybe this was your point anyway.
In talking about the late Middle Ages, Pope Benedict XVI wrote the following about the influence of secular (profane) music on sacred music (from “The Spirit of the Liturgy”). He wrote that they were:
"…each influenced by the other. This is particularly clear in the case of the so-called ‘parody Masses’, in which the text of the Mass was set to a theme or melody that came from secular music, with the result that anyone hearing it might think he was listening to the latest “hit”.
On the same subject, he later writes:
“Music was alienating the liturgy from its true nature. AT THIS POINT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT INTERVENED IN THE CULTURE WAR THAT HAD BROKEN OUT. It was made a norm that liturgical music should be at the service of the Word; the use of instruments was substantially reduced; AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SECULAR AND SACRED MUSIC WAS CLEARLY AFFIRMED.”
Later in Church history came what Pope Benedict called “the virtuoso mentality” with “the vanity of technique”. He said it led to the obscuring of the sacred by the operatic:
“Pope Pius X tried to remove the operatic element from the liturgy and declared Gregorian Chant and the great polyphony of the age of the Catholic Reformation (of which Palestrina was the outstanding representative) to be the standard for liturgical music. A CLEAR DISTINCTION WAS MADE BETWEEN LITURGICAL MUSIC AND RELIGIOUS MUSIC IN GENERAL, just as visual art in the liturgy has come to conform to different standards from those employed in religious art in general”
It is my belief that, eventually, the Church will intervene again.
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opus101
Guest
I think this is one of the keys to the proper use of “religious” music - more parish events, even song fests.
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superamazingman
Guest
Um, there actually is a reason not to sing hymns, it’s the exact same reason they aren’t sung at the EF: The propers are the texts of the Mass, and replacing them with various songs is not something we should take lightly.
The OF is not a break from tradition. The OF is not a radical change from the EF, and it shouldn’t be celebrated as such.
If you want to sing hymns, go to a hymn-sing. If you want to pray the Mass, come to Mass. They are two different things.
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Cat
Guest
So not only do the parishes have to abandon the simple-to-play-and-sing hymns and use Gregorian chant and polyphony, and that means spending money to hire people who are knowledgeable enough about Gregorian chant and polyphony (rare breed of people) to teach it to the 99% of the parishioners who can’t even sing Happy Birthday on pitch…
…but now we also have to plan a “season” of socials, dinners, picnics, youth nights, festivals, etc. and hire “contemporary” music experts to teach, play for, conduct, and perform “profane” or “non-liturgical music” for these events, which, in all probability, only a tiny number of parishioners will bother to attend.
This sounds like a lot of work and money, and I think that it probably won’t happen in most parishes, even though it does sound nice.
I was evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life. Please allow me to explain something. In evangelical Christianity, there is no such thing as liturgy. There is no Mass, and there is no place or time that is more sacred than any other place or time.
To an evangelical, there is no difference between a worship service in a church building and a picnic in a park and a home Bible study and a private time of “devotions and prayer.” One is not “sacred” while the others are “profane.” There is simply no difference.
To an evangelical, a water balloon fight at camp can be just as “sacred” and “spiritual” as a church worship service. A sing-along on a bus or around a campfire is just as spiritual as a church worship service.
I hope I’m explaining that well enough for Catholics to understand what I mean.
The concept of “appropriateness of music” for different events doesn’t exist for evangelical Protestants. Music about God is appropriate in ALL settings–to an evangelical Protestant, a song like “Praise Ye The Lord The Almighty” is as appropriate at the picnic as it is in the worship service. There is simply no such thing as “liturgical” music that is only done “in church.”
The Scripture justifying this point of view is “Glorify God in all that we do.” To an evangelical Protestant, EVERYTHING we do is worship. Changing a baby’s diaper is an act of worship. Making love with your spouse is an act of worship. Singing Bach is an act of worship, and so is singing Casting Crowns. In fact, if you are doing it to glorify God, singing, “Drop Kick Me Jesus Through the Goalposts of Life” is an act of worship.
So evangelical Protestants don’t have the concept of separate “events” for evangelizing/fellowship and “worship of God.”
I really hope I’ve explained it adequately.
One more thing–it’s getting to the point where evangelical Protestants don’t like to sing corporately any more than Catholics do. They would rather listen. It’s too bad–I can still remember those wonderful “singspiration” services, and I played for them back in the 1980s.
…but now we also have to plan a “season” of socials, dinners, picnics, youth nights, festivals, etc. and hire “contemporary” music experts to teach, play for, conduct, and perform “profane” or “non-liturgical music” for these events, which, in all probability, only a tiny number of parishioners will bother to attend.
This sounds like a lot of work and money, and I think that it probably won’t happen in most parishes, even though it does sound nice.
I was evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life. Please allow me to explain something. In evangelical Christianity, there is no such thing as liturgy. There is no Mass, and there is no place or time that is more sacred than any other place or time.
To an evangelical, there is no difference between a worship service in a church building and a picnic in a park and a home Bible study and a private time of “devotions and prayer.” One is not “sacred” while the others are “profane.” There is simply no difference.
To an evangelical, a water balloon fight at camp can be just as “sacred” and “spiritual” as a church worship service. A sing-along on a bus or around a campfire is just as spiritual as a church worship service.
I hope I’m explaining that well enough for Catholics to understand what I mean.
The concept of “appropriateness of music” for different events doesn’t exist for evangelical Protestants. Music about God is appropriate in ALL settings–to an evangelical Protestant, a song like “Praise Ye The Lord The Almighty” is as appropriate at the picnic as it is in the worship service. There is simply no such thing as “liturgical” music that is only done “in church.”
The Scripture justifying this point of view is “Glorify God in all that we do.” To an evangelical Protestant, EVERYTHING we do is worship. Changing a baby’s diaper is an act of worship. Making love with your spouse is an act of worship. Singing Bach is an act of worship, and so is singing Casting Crowns. In fact, if you are doing it to glorify God, singing, “Drop Kick Me Jesus Through the Goalposts of Life” is an act of worship.
So evangelical Protestants don’t have the concept of separate “events” for evangelizing/fellowship and “worship of God.”
I really hope I’ve explained it adequately.
One more thing–it’s getting to the point where evangelical Protestants don’t like to sing corporately any more than Catholics do. They would rather listen. It’s too bad–I can still remember those wonderful “singspiration” services, and I played for them back in the 1980s.
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liturgyluver
Guest
I think what is interesting about your post above is that you carefully avoided references to the documents that I mentioned that all specifically allow substution of the Proper texts with hymns. In Musicum Sacram , the Propers were assigned to the third degree in level of importance in what should be sung at mass It’s also important to remember that the Propers were only sung at High Mass and prior to Vatican II it was not permitted to sing the Propers at Low Mass - which is the Mass that vast majority of people attended.
I understand that you might prefer the Propers to the hymns, in which case go to Mass where the Propers are sung by the choir but please don’t infer that hymns are not permitted and therefore we should not sing them because that is untrue. .
Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship (2007), published by the US Bishops’ Committee on Divine Worship states “Church Legislation permits the use of vernacular hymns at the Entrance, Preparation of the Gifts, Communion, and Recessional” The same authority applies to the UK in different documents, so when I go to a Mass with hymns, I will continue to sing,
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Cat
Guest
Thank you for posting this.
Several pages back, I asked superamazingman about this, thinking that perhaps I was misinterpreting what they were saying about the bishops.
They came right out and said that the bishops are wrong.
I never responded back, because I have a very hard time with that post. To me, this is an incredible stance for a Catholic to hold–that most of the bishops in the United States have somehow managed, in spite of all their study and education and close relationship with the Holy Father, and their many decades of experience managing parishes and preaching the Gospel, not to mention their ordination by Jesus Christ Himself–are somehow all (or mostly) incorrect about the music that they permit in all the parishes in their diocese.
I don’t even know what to say to this. It’s an amazing conclusion for a layperson to hold.
I’m glad that others like you and pnewton have come forward and presented some excellent posts demonstrating that hymns in the Mass are liturgically-correct. Thank you again.
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pnewton
Guest
Or go to most Mass’ in the U. S. and you can do both.
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pnewton
Guest
It is a good book, and a good chapter, though more theoretical than practical. A poster here years ago suggested I read this book and now I read it multiple times. I would point out that he draws a distinction between the challenge faced and Trent and the challenge today. I would say that this book, and especially that chapter is a must read for Church musicians. The history of inculturation of music is important. From the Semetic use of stringed instruments to the inclusion and eventual enshrinement of Gregorian Chant, then the development of polyphonic Chant.
Today we are faced in our culture with pop music, which the book calls the cult of the banal (listen to pop radio to understand this) and classic music, which is the realm of elitism. So as we try to expand beyond the European influence to embrace a more universal Church, I use the following guidelines. First, since my parish was as straight hymn parish when I joined, I try to steer away from the banal. Now this word is subjective, but I know what I see as banal. Most composers produce few really great inspiring hymns. Staff musicians are particularly prone to cranking out mediocre stuff. Take for example the classic case of Marty Haugen. While I see most of his work as forced, I think My Soul in Stillness Waits springs straight from the spirit of Advent, both in words and musically. I will not touch his* Tree of Life*. It seems to be written just to make something for Lent. I do not know how to describe the difference except to sing them. For Lent, I stick with the much more inspired* Attende Domine*.
As of yet, I do not do any polyphonic chant. I lack both the time to learn and the resources of voices. We have had classes in Gregorian chant and are not including that. For Lent, we are using Jubilate Dei, but in English (the priest did not want the Latin until Triduum). While I include more chant, both Latin and English, I want to avoid the danger of turning it into a museum display. That will not serve to enhance the Mass. It is better if I introduce it in a way that I have buy in from most of the parish. In all of this, I use The Spirit of the Liturgy as a foundation from history, and the current Church documents as a guideline.
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Sarabande
Guest
I think this is important to point out. I picked out that part of your post, because I have asked my family members about what the EF mass was like at least from the 1920s to the 1960s. They remember singing mostly hymns either in English or Latin during the mass. Even in my mother’s home country half way around the world from the U.S., hymn singing was very prevalent during mass long before the OF came around. I can’t prove this was the case in other areas, but I would imagine that this wasn’t isolated or unusual.
Although I personally believe it is very important to incorporate the propers, chants, etc., I also have no problem with hymn-singing at mass. I like how a couple of the parishes where I/I’ve work/worked do incorporate all of the above. The Church does allow for hymns and if it can be balanced with singing the propers, chants, and, if they have a choir, polyphony, that’s even better. I think for anyone who travels, they would agree with me that many, if not most, parishes, sing hymns, even if it is only done during the processionals and recessionals. I’m not just talking about the U.S. either. In the European countries where I’ve studied or visited it is the same. I like to church-hop a lot while I’m in those countries, spending my Sunday mornings attending various masses and even the most traditional parishes with great music programs will still include at least one or two hymns.
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Sarabande
Guest
Yes, I would agree with this. How Catholics view “worship” is different from other denominations. That said, it would also be incorrect to say that Catholics don’t treat every part of their lives as worshiping and praising God. As a life-long cradle Catholic, I was always taught and encouraged to use all parts of my life to praise my Lord. Whenever I sing, no matter the music, I’m always thanking and praising Him. I always say a prayer to Him before a performance, thanking Him for this gift and that I would be nothing without Him. In other parts of my life, St. Teresa was always shown to me in grade school as example of offering up everything, even the smallest tasks, I do for the Lord.
I can understand how other denominations or converts to Catholicism who do not have this kind of criteria and rules in their former denominations would have a difficult time understanding the differences with liturgy, what is appropriate for liturgy, what is considered a sacred place, etc. It can be just as difficult trying to explain the reasons to those who were brought up Catholic. It doesn’t mean that Catholics should change their ways to accommodate converts or cradle Catholics who don’t understand, but we could do more to help them understand why there are differences on an individual basis.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I just want to point out something. No one ever sings, or has ever sung, hymns at EF masses, ever. They are sung, and only were ever sung, during processions and recessions, which are not, in the technical sense, part of the Mass. Even the most hardcore music restoration types don’t care about that, including me, because technically, those times are not the Mass.
I think the practical first step to take is:
I think the practical first step to take is:
- Allow hymns, as always, but only at the procession and recession. This is perfectly in line with Church musical history and there is nothing at all wrong with it even on the most technical level, because these times are not part of the Mass.
- Make parishes sing Propers at the Offertory and Communion, in either Latin or the vernacular. I know some people think Greg. chant is soooo soo so hard, but I am really an EXTREMELY ****** singer (no sense of anything on a practical musical level), but with a whole choir and/or congregation singing, it will sound good. This solves another problem: most choirs have a severely unbalanced male to female ratio, tending far to the latter. Greg. chant, at its very essence, doesn’t “care,” so to speak, about that, and sounds fine with any ratio of sexes. There is no such thing as “polyphonic Propers,” so a major problem is solved right there.
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Sarabande
Guest
I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I don’t think this is an absolute truth, considering the fact that so many people I know who lived prior to Vat. II did sing hymns during the EF mass. It was more likely during the low masses, of course. I’m sure there were parishes that did not use hymns at all or just during the processional/recessional, but it seems at least from those I know personally and also from some of the reading I did today on-line, depending on where you were or if you were part of ethnic parishes, this would have varied.
I found this on Musica Sacra. It was the Liturgical Guidelines according to the 1962 Missale Romanum Music for low mass:
musicasacra.com/pdf/lowmass.pdf
One of the questions on page 3 and 4 was:
The other question on here also states:
It then also quotes from a 1958 document “The Congregation of Rites” that:
It looks like a hymn was acceptable during the mass as well as a motet or organ music during the low mass. It would also make sense since in my “ancient” St. Gregory Hymnal which was published around 1920 or so there are a few communion hymns, which was probably used during communion at a low mass. I’m assuming that a low mass was probably what many people attended most of the time.
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opus101
Guest
This sounds great to me. I’m so used to hearing Haugen et al at Mass. Also, even in the rare instance that a traditional hymn is done, it is played in a rock or pop style. If we had what you describe in my parish, I would weep for sheer joy.
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Sarabande
Guest
I do think if a parish did want to start implementing more of the propers and chant/polyphony, one idea, depending on how the parish dynamic works and the support of the pastor, is to start by having a nice balance of singing the hymns during the processional and recessional and then doing the rest with the propers, etc. Some parishes do this already and I think it works well.
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liturgyluver
Guest
You are absolutely right. The old 1950s hymnals still available in a neighbouring Parish has both offertory and communion hymns in English. It was actually Mediator Dei (1947) which allowed hymns to be sung at Low Mass, and in England and Wales the Bishops permitted hymns to be sung from the First Sunday in Advent 1966 at the Entrance, Offertory and Communion at ALL masses.
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Cat
Guest
Perhaps I worry for no reason, but I fear that this kind of thing undermines the authority of our Apostles.
When someone believes that the authorities are wrong about one thing, e.g., music, it’s real easy to believe that they might also be wrong about other things, e.g., contraception, or gay marriage, or the HHS proposal. So many of us WANT to believe that our Bishops are wrong and that our Church is wrong, and that it really is OK for us to contracept or marry someone of the same sex, or ignore or even praise the fact that our President is proposing something that will endanger our Constitutional freedom of religion.
Call me a silly sheep, but I think it’s so important that we remain united under our shepherds!
I’m sure that there are times when sheep wonder why their shepherd is leading them into what looks like a “bad” place, but they have to trust that the shepherd knows what he is doing, or else they will end up wolves’ food or falling over a cliff, or getting lost and never finding their way back to the farm.
I certainly think it’s fine when laypeople study the various Church documents and learn as much as they can. But when their conclusions contradict the conclusions of the Bishops, the very esteemed successors to the Apostles, well, I think that it would be wise for the layman to back off and trust that the Bishops know more than he/she does.
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ProVobis
Guest
From my recollections, what you state what happened before Vatican II is accurate. But it is to be noted, and I’ve had agreement on this point, that the EF celebrated today is in many respects different from the way in was celebrated in the 50’s. Perhaps because it isn’t under reform any more (reforms actually began in the late 40’s under Bugnini), I don’t know. But we should heed the Vatican II documents because maybe the council fathers suspected that unless they did or said something, the music and the liturgy and the vernacular translations would go uncontrolled. There were plenty of abuses prior to Vatican II and I feel that Vatican II provided the proper guidelines (Latin, Gregorian chant, pipe organ, etc.) to correct them; however it took some 30-40 years to realize this.
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