MERGED: Where are these 40,000 plus Protestant denominations

[Nicea325]

No, read my post above. That encyclopedia counts each country in which a given Church is found as a separate denomination. Thus, if United Methodists are found in, let us say, 200 countries, as an organized church, the encyclopedia (which is most obviously the source of the varying 20,000/30,000/40,00 denominations figures over the years) counts that as 200 denominations. It is a pecularity of that particular book, and how it analyzes Christianity. Thus, the RCC is counted once, in every country in which it appears, which is to say, all countries. Which makes around 240 RC “denominations”.

GKC

So the 242 RC denominations someone mentioned are referring to the number of countries and not actual so-called RC denominations?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

As a Catholic I am bemused by the number of times I see this or even much higher figures than 40,000 denominations thrown in to bolster an argument about why sola scriptura is wrong. I think it unfair in debate if it can’t be substantiated.

I want to see a list of these 40,000 denominations. I personally know of perhaps 20 or 30.

I know of hundreds of “non-denominational bible churches”. Each could be considered its own denomination. Then add to all those protestant churches that allow for a multiplicity of beliefs within their group.

It is a jungle out there.

 

[GKC]

So the 242 RC denominations someone mentioned are referring to the number of countries and not actual so-called RC denominations?

Correct. As is noted in the quote from one of the encyclopedia’s editors, included in my 9:48 post, above.

GKC

 

[Portrait]

No, read my post above. That encyclopedia counts each country in which a given Church is found as a separate denomination. Thus, if United Methodists are found in, let us say, 200 countries, as an organized church, the encyclopedia (which is most obviously the source of the varying 20,000/30,000/40,00 denominations figures over the years) counts that as 200 denominations. It is a pecularity of that particular book, and how it analyzes Christianity. Thus, the RCC is counted once, in every country in which it appears, which is to say, all countries. Which makes around 240 RC “denominations”.

GKC

Dear GKC,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your clarification above, the penny has now dropped.

Notwithstanding, this method of calculating is extremely misleading and unsound for there can only be one denomination of the United Methodists, for example; even if it does have branches in every country on the globe, it still, nevertheless, comprises of one United Methodist denomination. All of those diverse branches agree in the same Confession of Faith, the same form of church government and the same number of ordinances etc.

Moreover, it is certainly erroneous to count the Catholic Church once in every country and then say that there are c. 240 “denominations”. That is utterly absurd since the Catholic Church is the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”, founded by Jesus Christ, even though it has many districts under the pastoral care of a Bishop in many countries.

However, none of this undercuts the fact that there is only one Catholic Church in contradistinction to the multitude of Protestant communions and, given the pathological Protestant tendency to divide, one can be quite sure that that number is increasing daily somewhere in the world. Christ established only one Church, hence even two denominations in the world would be two too many.

That the Roman Catholic Church corresponds exactly to the religion established by Christ is proved from the following:

1/ The Catholic Church was founded by Christ personally (St. Matt. 16: 18). All other churches/sects vanish as one travels back in history.

2/ The Catholic Church has existed in all the centuries since Christ.

3/ All members of the Catholic Church confess exactly the same essential doctrines and submit to the Magisterium.

4/ The Catholic Church claims to be both universal and Catholic.

5/ The Catholic Church speaks with a voice of true authority in God’s name. No other communion claims to do such a thing.

That is why the Catholic Church is a Church and not merely a man-made denomination.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[BernadetteM]

Since parishes have broken away from the Episcopal church and the Anglican Communion world wide, there are over 80 different ones. I would state that they are different denominations as they are not united in one faith. Although before the break Anglican/Episcopalians were united under one communion, the Anglican Communion, but since then none can unite as one church/denomination. There are disagreements on several doctrines among the different groups.

It is a sad example of what human nature does when left to their own desires.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[GKC]

Dear GKC,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your clarification above, the penny has now dropped.

Notwithstanding, this method of calculating is extremely misleading and unsound for there can only be one denomination of the United Methodists, for example; even if it does have branches in every country on the globe, it still, nevertheless, comprises of one United Methodist denomination. All of those diverse branches agree in the same Confession of Faith, the same form of church government and the same number of ordinances etc.

Moreover, it is certainly erroneous to count the Catholic Church once in every country and then say that there are c. 240 “denominations”. That is utterly absurd since the Catholic Church is the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”, founded by Jesus Christ, even though it has many districts under the pastoral care of a Bishop in many countries.

However, none of this undercuts the fact that there is only one Catholic Church in contradistinction to the multitude of Protestant communions and, given the pathological Protestant tendency to divide, one can be quite sure that that number is increasing daily somewhere in the world. Christ established only one Church, hence even two denominations in the world would be two too many.

That the Roman Catholic Church corresponds exactly to the religion established by Christ is proved from the following:

1/ The Catholic Church was founded by Christ personally (St. Matt. 16: 18). All other churches/sects vanish as one travels back in history.

2/ The Catholic Church has existed in all the centuries since Christ.

3/ All members of the Catholic Church confess exactly the same essential doctrines and submit to the Magisterium.

4/ The Catholic Church claims to be both universal and Catholic.

5/ The Catholic Church speaks with a voice of true authority in God’s name. No other communion claims to do such a thing.

That is why the Catholic Church is a Church and not merely a man-made denomination.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

For the purposes of analysis that the encyclopedia wishes to perform, they may choose what method of denoting denominations that they desire. It certainly can be misleading, esp. in the world of on-line discussions, since their figures are the origin of the “20/30/40 thousand protestant denominations” so often cited. However, it’s their encyclopedia. For them, “denomination” is counted once for each country, and not in the manner you are using the term. Anyone wishing to publish another encyclopedia could certainly organize it in some other fashion.

GKC

 

[Portrait]

For the purposes of analysis that the encyclopedia wishes to perform, they may choose what method of denoting denominations that they desire. It certainly can be misleading, esp. in the world of on-line discussions, since their figures are the origin of the “20/30/40 thousand protestant denominations” so often cited. However, it’s their encyclopedia. For them, “denomination” is counted once for each country, and not in the manner you are using the term. Anyone wishing to publish another encyclopedia could certainly organize it in some other fashion.

GKC

Dear GKC,

Fair comment.

From now on I for one will refrain from citing the 40k figure and just speak of the tragic multiplicity of Protestant denominations, it still does not destabalise the Catholic argument one itota.

BTW, do you know if the 20/30/40k figure is cited by any other impartial reference work, or is such a figure always derived from the Christian World Encylopaedia?

Thankyou for again for puting me right on this matter and reminding us to check our sources more thoroughly.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[GKC]

Dear GKC,

Fair comment.

From now on I for one will refrain from citing the 40k figure and just speak of the tragic multiplicity of Protestant denominations, it still does not destabalise the Catholic argument one itota.

BTW, do you know if the 20/30/40k figure is cited by any other impartial reference work, or is such a figure always derived from the Christian World Encylopaedia?

Thankyou for again for puting me right on this matter and reminding us to check our sources more thoroughly.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

As far as I can recall, I’ve not seen any other source referenced. And usually, no source at all is referenced. It’s just a “known fact”, that appears ubiquitously in discussions.

And you are right. The point is the same. It’s not a matter of 40 thousand; 40 would be too many.

GKC

 

[Dokimas]

As a Catholic I am bemused by the number of times I see this or even much higher figures than 40,000 denominations thrown in to bolster an argument about why sola scriptura is wrong. I think it unfair in debate if it can’t be substantiated.

I want to see a list of these 40,000 denominations. I personally know of perhaps 20 or 30.

I wonder how many of the denominations don’t believe in SS. Those can be eliminated from the argument!!!

It’s a poor argument against SS no matter how many denominations there are.

Truth isn’t a matter of belief or non-belief or how many believe it. It’s either true or untrue no matter who delieves it or disbelieves.

 

[Nine_Two]

I wonder how many of the denominations don’t believe in SS. Those can be eliminated from the argument!!!

It’s a poor argument against SS no matter how many denominations there are.

Truth isn’t a matter of belief or non-belief or how many believe it. It’s either true or untrue no matter who delieves it or disbelieves.

Isn’t belief in Sola Scriptura the mark of protestantism? Either they do or they themselves broke off from groups that did, and therefore hold it as their heritage.

 

[MarianD]

You say there’s only one…that’s my point. You’d accept one number but reject another, and both from the same source.

Well, it’s obvious to see why. Under the definition of Protestant, those thousands of denominations exist. Under the definition of Catholic, there’s 1 denomination because if someone rejects the Pope and the Magisterium’s teachings, they’re not Catholic. If I call myself a tomato, I’m not a tomato no matter how much I want to be one.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

True, there are those people, but I think the vast majority are just trying to convey the idea that there are a lot.

I would just convey something with “thousands” for trying to describe “a lot,” or even just stick with “a lot” Using an exact number which has been proven over and over again to be an exaggeration is simply erroneous. It’d be like if I said, “There are over 500,000 species of parrots,” and after someone explained how that’s simply untrue, I replied with, “Oh, well, I’m just conveying the idea that there’s a lot.”

EDIT: And everyone who’s seen the movie “Time Bandits” knows how many species of parrots there are.

Well, it’s obvious to see why. Under the definition of Protestant, those thousands of denominations exist. Under the definition of Catholic, there’s 1 denomination because if someone rejects the Pope and the Magisterium’s teachings, they’re not Catholic. If I call myself a tomato, I’m not a tomato no matter how much I want to be one.

That’s not how the source where this number stems from is reading it (see the conversation on the previous page, which explains it).

I think, unfortunately, what we’re seeing here is what I see when I discuss theology with Muslims: double standards. We take a source that gives a number for Protestants, and some Roman Catholics say, “Aha! Absolutely true!” Yet we go to that same source, done by the same people, and using the same standards get a number for Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics say, “Oh, uh no wait, that’s totally different, that’s untrue.” You can’t handle facts that way.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Except for a small number of traditions…not too many Protestant groups claim to be the only true church…MOST Protestant groups believe they belong to the One True Church…not located in a specific denomination…but comprised of those whom Christ has redeemed. If you are “saved”…you are a member of the One True Church. A “denomination” does not make up the One True Chruch…there may be 40K denominations…but One Chruch.

There is One Church of Christ, Christians who claim to be a part of a “denomination” are still part of the Church of Christ (NB with a valid Baptism with the invocation of the Holy Trinity.) But the number of how many denominations should not be overlooked because it reveals the problem of disunity which is a problem of fully accepting the Faith.

 

[Nine_Two]

I would just convey something with “thousands” for trying to describe “a lot,” or even just stick with “a lot” Using an exact number which has been proven over and over again to be an exaggeration is simply erroneous. It’d be like if I said, “There are over 500,000 species of parrots,” and after someone explained how that’s simply untrue, I replied with, “Oh, well, I’m just conveying the idea that there’s a lot.”

EDIT: And everyone who’s seen the movie “Time Bandits” knows how many species of parrots there are.

Yes, well I personally like to make up fake numbers when there are lots of something “There are 400 bajillian protestant denominations!” But this thread seems to have proven you correct, quite a few people seem to accept that there are actually 40,000 protestant denominations, although they seem to have no trouble denouncing the source for saying there are 240 Catholic denominations.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Yes, well I personally like to make up fake numbers when there are lots of something “There are 400 bajillian protestant denominations!”

Fake numbers can always be fun “There are 400 super quadrillian-billion protestant denominations!” (Sad thing is, seeing as how the supposed number of Protestant “denominations” grows every year, it might not be long before we see this being argued around CAF)

 

[Nine_Two]

Fake numbers can always be fun “There are 400 super quadrillian-billion protestant denominations!” (Sad thing is, seeing as how the supposed number of Protestant “denominations” grows every year, it might not be long before we see this being argued around CAF)

When churches outnumber people, we shall have unity!

 

[joe370]

That same Encyclopaedia also stated there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations, but I’m sure if I started a thread asking, “Why should I join the Roman Church if there are 242 denominations?” I’d get a lot of people responding with, “Huh? What? There aren’t 242 denominations of Roman Catholicism!”

Picking and choosing the facts, ladies and gentlemen, picking and choosing the facts.

Byzantine_Wolf could you send me the link that states that there are 242 Roman catholic denominations? Thanks Wolf!

The only reason to join the CC is if one believes that Jesus founded the CC. As a former protestant, I wanted to belong to church of Matthew 16. Jesus said: ** I** will build my church…so logically speaking if Jesus is not the architect then someone else is.

The only 2 churches that can trace their lineage all the way back to the apostolic age is the EOC and the CC and the only name that I can identify as the founder of these 2 churches, that were, at one time, the one church founded by Go, in the first century is Jesus Christ. All of the other churches stemming from the reformation were founded by men other than JC, never to impugn the wonderful works of any of these churches of course.

 

[roveau]

I know of hundreds of “non-denominational bible churches”. Each could be considered its own denomination. Then add to all those protestant churches that allow for a multiplicity of beliefs within their group.

It is a jungle out there.

But this is my point. Can you name or locate those hundreds of ‘non-denominational bible churches’ that you know?

 

[roveau]

The only 2 churches that can trace their lineage all the way back to the apostolic age is the EOC and the CC and the only name that I can identify as the founder of these 2 churches, that were, at one time, the one church founded by Go, in the first century is Jesus Christ. All of the other churches stemming from the reformation were founded by men other than JC, never to impugn the wonderful works of any of these churches of course.

Are we not forgetting the Coptic churches?

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I may be a ittle late in adding this, but when I was protestant and going through training to be a pastor, 40,000 was the accepted number of protestant divisions. When I was taking the classes necessary for pastoral leadership and church admin. 40,000 was the number in the textbooks, and given by the professors. Protestants accept that number, and many are indeed ashamed by it, as I was when I heard that number.