MERGED: Where are these 40,000 plus Protestant denominations

[Ginger2]

It’s easy for Ginger - or any other anti-Catholic for that matter - to take a couple of quotes from the ECF’s out of context.
BUT, when you bombard her with many more quotes - IN CONTEXT - she simply “fades away”.

I took a couple early quotes and a few specific Scriptures that clearly state every thin necessary for manking concerning God is written down. Yes there are some things Jesus did that are not written down, but the Bible says everything necessasary for our salvation is written.

And I noticed you couldn’t find even one thing to dispute that fact! So what if you come up with a verse that says "hold fast to the traditions whether you learned that orally or from the written Word. It doesn’t say there are things not written anywhere that are ONLY passed along orally. Instead it says everything necessary IS WRITTEN down for us.

Obviously the oral tradition he was speaking of are an oral transmission of the written Word.

 

[Riccardo]

No. The Didache was written for adult converts.

Baptism is how we first come to Christ. The other Sacraments are how we remain in Christ.

Obviously, a newborn baby cannot come to Christ in his heart, or in his intellect - so he comes to Christ by means of the Sacrament of Baptism. Ultimately, everyone who has come to Christ in his heart and/or in his intellect, also has to come to Christ and remain in Christ by means of the Sacraments, as well, because we are not able to fully complete these things under our own power.

When the baby grows older, he will also come to Christ in his heart and in his intellect, by being taught all these things by his parents and by his teachers in the Church.

The Sacraments operate under God’s power; not ours - that’s why they are effective means of grace.

So, those then who do not grow up a christain home, but have been baptized (Happens all the time here) and in later life have nothing to do with the Lord, then hear the gospel being preached, so as to convict them, just have to get confimed?

So then their baptism as such was only valid until the age of reason?

If it was valid all the time, how on earth do they wash past sins away?
Confirmation does not do that.
Ric

 

[Ginger2]

Please point me to your post where you addressed this.

You should have read the thread before you accuse me of not answering something. I am not going to take the time to find each specific post for you.

However, I will give you a point to start from and you can scroll down and read each of my posts until you see all that I have said on this specific point

Start at post #320

*Be sure to pause read post #321 and others by jmcrae, also

 

[jmcrae]

So, those then who do not grow up a christain home, but have been baptized (Happens all the time here) and in later life have nothing to do with the Lord, then hear the gospel being preached, so as to convict them, just have to get confimed?

Parents who have their children baptized take on the duty to raise their children in the Christian faith. If they fail to do so, this is a sin. It is better for the child not to be baptized, than to be baptized and then not raised to believe in Jesus.

So then their baptism as such was only valid until the age of reason?

Baptism is valid for all of eternity. But if a baptized person commits a mortal sin at some point in his life, and then never repents, and never goes to Confession, he is going to be a baptized person in Hell.

His baptism will never be taken away from him, though.

If it was valid all the time, how on earth do they wash past sins away?

Baptism washes all past sins away at the time of baptism, including Original Sin.

It also initiates us into Christ and into the Christian life.

If you commit a sin after baptism, you break your relationship with Christ. In order to restore your relationship with Christ, you must go to Confession.

You can only be baptized once, but you can go to Confession as often as you want.

Confirmation does not do that.

Confirmation gives us the graces of the Holy Spirit, with the gifts of Wisdom, Understanding, Right Judgement, Knowledge, Courage, Piety, and Awe of the Lord. It is the second of three Sacraments of Initiation; the third is First Holy Communion.

 

[Ginger2]

I love this one!!! jmcrae and I don’t agree o anything, but at least he is willing concede to reason and logic and doesn’t have to depend on gross exaggerations to make his point.

In fact he or she is one of the few Catholics I pay any serious attention to because of his high standards in dialogging and debate.

No, they are counting Bishops’ conferences; not Rites. There are only 23 Rites in Catholicism.

But if they are counting every Bishops’ conference of Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists as separate denominations, too, then the numbers for those will be equally over-inflated, which makes the whole study unreliable.

 

[Riccardo]

Just a point to note here, a part from other faiths, (Islam etc) every person, or shall i say 99.9% of the Uk pop have been baptized, so preaching the gospel would be pointless on this one fact, you cant preach repent and be baptized then.
I see know where it says repent and confess on a Friday night.
Ric

 

[Ginger2]

Since I doubt you will look before you state I haven’t responded again, here’s another:

Originally Posted by tqualey

Actually, Ginger2, you need to make a distinction between the 1st - 5th Century heretics from the 16th Century variety who ultimately gave us the Protestant denominations we see before us today. I do not believe you can accurately use the term “Protestant” before the 16th Century.

My point exactly! You ignore all the splits in the Catholic Church before Luther and attribute all non-catholics as splits originating from Luther. Those non- reformation splits are not from protestant denoinations as you just defined above.

You ignore the aborigine in different countries and count them under the heading of protestant splits, etc.
The Catholic Church is still experiencing splits to this day

 

[jmcrae]

Just a point to note here, a part from other faiths, (Islam etc) every person, or shall i say 99.9% of the Uk pop have been baptized, so preaching the gospel would be pointless on this one fact, you cant preach repent and be baptized then.

If you are trying to follow some kind of a formula, you will certainly fail.

You have to meet people where they are at, which means that you have to get to know them and love them, before you can preach to them.

 

[Tomster]

It’s easy for Ginger - or any other anti-Catholic for that matter - to take a couple of quotes from the ECF’s out of context.
BUT, when you bombard her with many more quotes - IN CONTEXT - she simply “fades away”.

Exactly!

 

[Tomster]

I think she already HAS** . . .

Exactly!

 

[Riccardo]

So every time the gospel is preached, the one preaching has to get to know them personally?

No one is convicted on the preaching of the word until they have a personal relationship with the one preaching the truth?

Is that how it works then? No power in the word alone?
Ric

 

[Tomster]

How funny, as a Lutheran I see the precedent a little different. Just recently, a group of us didn’t really agree with the pastor, actually he really wasn’t doing a very good job. Rather than picking up and leaving, we got together, talked about it, and then fired him. Actually the story is a little longer than that, but this is the readers digest version

So please don’t lump all Protestants into your Baptist box, and don’t lump Lutherans or Episcopalians into that group. We have polity that allows us a great deal of freedom, but at the same time gives us a set of rules we need to play with in.

I take it that you “hired” another pastor who tickled your ears to your satisfaction? A very common Protestant (Lutheran, Episcopal, Baptist, etc.) man-made tradition.

 

[Tomster]

Parents who have their children baptized take on the duty to raise their children in the Christian faith. If they fail to do so, this is a sin. It is better for the child not to be baptized, than to be baptized and then not raised to believe in Jesus.

Baptism is valid for all of eternity. But if a baptized person commits a mortal sin at some point in his life, and then never repents, and never goes to Confession, he is going to be a baptized person in Hell.

His baptism will never be taken away from him, though.

Baptism washes all past sins away at the time of baptism, including Original Sin.

It also initiates us into Christ and into the Christian life.

If you commit a sin after baptism, you break your relationship with Christ. In order to restore your relationship with Christ, you must go to Confession.

You can only be baptized once, but you can go to Confession as often as you want.

Confirmation gives us the graces of the Holy Spirit, with the gifts of Wisdom, Understanding, Right Judgement, Knowledge, Courage, Piety, and Awe of the Lord. It is the second of three Sacraments of Initiation; the third is First Holy Communion.

I’m sure Ginger2 will disagree with you on all of the above.

 

[jmcrae]

So every time the gospel is preached, the one preaching has to get to know them personally?

That’s why we have pastors - men who get to know us, understand our needs, and give us what we need in their preaching. Does the pastor have to know every person in his congregation in an intimate, way, no - but he should at least be able to recognize them by face, and know one or two things about them (like whether they are married, or whether they are working, or going to school.

No one is convicted on the preaching of the word until they have a personal relationship with the one preaching the truth?

Not usually, no. There may be people who can hear the words of a random stranger and be convicted in their hearts, but I think that’s pretty rare.

Is that how it works then? No power in the word alone?

The power of the word, is the love with which it is given. But how can there be love, if you don’t even know the person? People are loved into the Kingdom of God; not preached into it.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m sure Ginger2 will disagree with you on all of the above.

And?

 

[Riccardo]

That’s why we have pastors - men who get to know us, understand our needs, and give us what we need in their preaching. Does the pastor have to know every person in his congregation in an intimate, way, no - but he should at least be able to recognize them by face, and know one or two things about them (like whether they are married, or whether they are working, or going to school.

Not usually, no. There may be people who can hear the words of a random stranger and be convicted in their hearts, but I think that’s pretty rare.

The power of the word, is the love with which it is given. But how can there be love, if you don’t even know the person? People are loved into the Kingdom of God; not preached into it.

well then, you seem to say you cant preach to a stranger on the street, they have to be in the church first
Goes against all that is written.

I think you will find we preach to the lost, not those on the pews, those on the pews need to be fed.

preaching outside the building is to get then in the fold.
Ric

 

[jmcrae]

well then, you seem to say you cant preach to a stranger on the street, they have to be in the church first

Why would you be preaching to strangers on the street? Preach to your friends, first - -when all of them have been converted, then you can start talking to strangers.

Goes against all that is written.

Do you think that the Apostles went around accosting complete strangers in the streets?

 

[Riccardo]

what the posts states is thats its very rare that anyone is convicted outside the church building, rubbish.

Yes, we should be teaching our love ones. But do i teach them just to forget about the sin they have comitted, just repent of it and all will be fine because they were baptized as baby?
I do not read that any where in scripture. Repent and be baptized, washing away your sins, i hear.

Ric

 

[jmcrae]

what the posts states is thats its very rare that anyone is convicted outside the church building, rubbish.

Most people who come to Church for the first time are there because they were invited by a friend or a family member. Not on the word of a stranger on the street.

Yes, we should be teaching our love ones. But do i teach them just to forget about the sin they have comitted, just repent of it and all will be fine because they were baptized as baby?

No, of course not.

They have to go to Confession, and they have to take up the active practice of the Christian life.

You can’t be re-baptized every time you commit a sin - if you have already been baptized, but you have fallen away, or you never took up the practice of the faith, then you have to go to Confession and then take up the practice of the faith.

 

[Ginger2]

Originally Posted by jmcrae
Parents who have their children baptized take on the duty to raise their children in the Christian faith. If they fail to do so, this is a sin…You can only be baptized once, but you can go to Confession as often as you want.

I’m sure Ginger2 will disagree with you on all of the above.

I didn’t really read the whole post, but the things that jumped out at me rewritten above - those I agree with completely!!!