MERGED: Why we believe in trinity?

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shyper07

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Is the Catholic believe in trinity?, then who is the 3rd person of holy ghost?👍
 
I’m sorry.I’m not sure what you’re asking.We do believe in the Trinity.Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.
 
shyper07 said:
Is the catholic believe in trinity?, then who is the 3rd person of holy ghost?👍
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The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. Only much older people still use that name, though. The rest of us use Holy Spirit.
 
Why we believe in trinity?, What is trinity?, and Who is they?
 
The Trinity is the doctrine that God is manifested in three persons: The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit; These three are equal: It is One in Three and Three in One
This Diagram should also explain en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.png
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
 
tbtcom1213 said:
The Trinity is the doctrine that God is manifested in three persons: The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit; These three are equal: It is One in Three and Three in One
This Diagram should also explain en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.png
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
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IF god is manifested in 3 person, meaning to say that god the father have a his own person, god the son have his own person, and also the holy spirit have his own person?..did accept this?.. one god in three person and three person in one god.
 
Three “persons” is an inaccurate way to describe the Trinity. They are not “persons” at all. They are pure spirits, of the same eternity and divinity, but with different functions in the overall plan of the Godhead. They would better be described as “entities” or “beings”.
 
hansard said:
Three “persons” is an inaccurate way to describe the Trinity. They are not “persons” at all. They are pure spirits, of the same eternity and divinity, but with different functions in the overall plan of the Godhead. They would better be described as “entities” or “beings”.
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The best way to describe the Trinity (if it is possible at all) is using the words of the Church. Three ‘hypostasis’ of one ‘ousia’. ‘ousia’ being the simplest of these two words refers to a shared essence and the three ‘hypostasis’ are said to be ‘homoousios’ of one substance or essence.

However ‘hypostasis’ does not translate particularly well as person. it refers rather to an entity but not a person, not in the sense that we understand person today in the west, as an individual package rapped up that exists primarily as a singularity above and beyond anything else. ‘hypostasis’ speaks rather of the idea of of an existence with some person like qualities but not something remotely like how we see a 21st century human as a person. It allows for certain specific traits to exist inside of each ‘hypostasis’ but does not allow for an understanding of a ‘hypostasis’ outside of the context of the other two.

What we know of the Trinity is that the Father is the source from which the Son is eternally begotten outside of time and the Spirit eternally spirates from outside of time. There was never a time when the Son and Spirit were not and they are equal to the Father in always bar one, that the source of the ‘ousia’ rests with the Father as the unbegotten one. Each are fully God but none are the some total of the other two. This is about as far into the mystery of the Trinity as the Church has been and it is as far as I am willing to God for risk of finding myself in Heresy.
 
hansard said:
Three “persons” is an inaccurate way to describe the Trinity. They are not “persons” at all. They are pure spirits, of the same eternity and divinity, but with different functions in the overall plan of the Godhead. They would better be described as “entities” or “beings”.
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This is most incorrect. God is ONE Being, not three; ONE Spirit, not three. The Athanasian Creed makes clear the ancient faith:
. . .the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
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So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
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So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. . .
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rbiaca said:
It is the belief that one God exists in three forms, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
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This is Modalism, the belief that God exists in three different modes or forms, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist as three hypostasis of one ousia. Each are fully God but yet none is the sum total of the others.

The doctrine of the Trinity is this: That there is one God; this one God is three hypostasis, the Father who is God, the Son who is God, and the Holy Spirit who is God. There are not three gods but one God; the Father is the entirety of God, the Son is the entirety of God, and the Holy Spirit is the entirety of God. However the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. The Father is unbegotten, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. The Divine nature rests with the Father and is eternally received by the Son; the Divine nature is likewise eternally received by the Holy Spirit from the Father. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal in all ways bar one; that the Father eternally and outside of time begets the Son and spirates Holy Spirit.

Why do we believe it? Because Christ’s Incarnation, life, death and Resurrection reveal his Divinity. The Divinity of both Christ and the Holy Spirit can be explored in depth by reading the the works of St Cyril of Alexandria, St Gregory and St Basil the Great. We believe it because it is revealed truth.
 
Ok FCEGM,
If I amended “pure spirits” to “pure spirit”, then you’d have no problem, right? The rest of the creed (at least, the quoted portion) does not argue with what I said.
Three beings in one being, but the beings are co-eternal, etc, etc.
The word “person” entails anthropomorphism and a resemblance of humanity which God the Father and God the Holy Spirit do NOT possess. Only God the Son possesses a human aspect.
Honestly, this is splitting hairs, and is typical of how threads progress around here. I make what I regard as a reasonable, inoffensive point, and get the Athanasian Creed shoved in my face, as if it refutes my point, especially with the curt statement “This is most incorrect.” No, it wasn’t most incorrect; it may have been insufficiently worded, at worst.

Thanks a whole lot.
 
hansard said:
Ok FCEGM,
If I amended “pure spirits” to “pure spirit”, then you’d have no problem, right? The rest of the creed (at least, the quoted portion) does not argue with what I said.
Three beings in one being, but the beings are co-eternal, etc, etc.
The word “person” entails anthropomorphism and a resemblance of humanity which God the Father and God the Holy Spirit do NOT possess. Only God the Son possesses a human aspect.
Honestly, this is splitting hairs, and is typical of how threads progress around here. I make what I regard as a reasonable, inoffensive point, and get the Athanasian Creed shoved in my face, as if it refutes my point, especially with the curt statement “This is most incorrect.” No, it wasn’t most incorrect; it may have been insufficiently worded, at worst.

Thanks a whole lot.
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I think we all understood the point you were trying to make and I’m sure no-one meant to cause you offence. Talking about the Trinity is very difficult and you were quite right to try and avoid the word ‘persons’. It really does lead to a lot of problems, especially given that to be a person has taken on an individualistic ring in the west. I recommend using the words used by the early Church Fathers, i.e. ‘hypostases’. This, translated into English as best we can means ‘being’ or ‘substantive reality’ and therefore avoids the whole problem of either calling Christ a spirit or the Father and Holy Spirit a person.

The Trinity fundamentally should be something that we experience through the Liturgies and Holy Mysteries rather than something we try to hammer down intellectually. It is beyond comprehension and to try and comprehend it leads to nothing but problems in the end.
 
Thanks, jonnyws, for your gracious reply.

On the issue of trying to understand the Trinity: well, it may be beyond understanding, but there’s no harm in discussing God’s nature in an objective, respectful way.
I know what I think and believe, and I find it very beneficial to learn about the beliefs of others.
 
hansard said:
Ok FCEGM,
If I amended “pure spirits” to “pure spirit”, then you’d have no problem, right? The rest of the creed (at least, the quoted portion) does not argue with what I said.
Three beings in one being, but the beings are co-eternal, etc, etc.
The word “person” entails anthropomorphism and a resemblance of humanity which God the Father and God the Holy Spirit do NOT possess. Only God the Son possesses a human aspect.
Honestly, this is splitting hairs, and is typical of how threads progress around here. I make what I regard as a reasonable, inoffensive point, and get the Athanasian Creed shoved in my face, as if it refutes my point, especially with the curt statement “This is most incorrect.” No, it wasn’t most incorrect; it may have been insufficiently worded, at worst.

Thanks a whole lot.
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I’m sorry, but the Athanasian Creed wasn’t shoved in your face; it was validly used as an example to show that “Person” is very much employed in the theological language of the Church. The Church’s precise use of “Person” when speaking of the Trinity is not easily dismissed and certainly cannot be replaced by “three beings” since the Most Holy Trinity is not composed of “three Beings”, but One Being which is not divided.

You’re welcome a whole lot. 🙂
 
The bible proved that god the father have a person,and he have a spirit, body and soul. like Jesus Christ. The problem is, how can we proved that the holy ghost have a person?, so that we can believe the trinity 3 person in one god?
 
What is the difference between spirit and soul? The Father and the Holy Spirit do not have a physical body. The Son has a physical body but this was not always so.
 
hansard said:
Three “persons” is an inaccurate way to describe the Trinity. They are not “persons” at all. They are pure spirits, of the same eternity and divinity, but with different functions in the overall plan of the Godhead. They would better be described as “entities” or “beings”.
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The Catechism uses person, that’s why most people use it. It also depends on how you define a person. When I use person I don’t mean that I think they each have a body or anything. A person is what distinguishes beings from one another, so the Second Person of the Trinity is the Son, that is His Person, His being the Son.
 
shyper07 said:
The bible proved that god the father have a person,and he have a spirit, body and soul. like Jesus Christ. The problem is, how can we proved that the holy ghost have a person?, so that we can believe the trinity 3 person in one god?
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He is considered a person because He is attributed qualities that only persons have.

The Holy Spirit speaks [Acts 10:19; 13:2], the Holy Spirit is referred to as “he” some ten times in John 16 alone, the Holy Spirit wills (something only a person can do) [1 Cor 12:11], the Holy Spirit has the capacity to love [Rom 15:30], He can be lied to [Acts 5:3], He can hear [John 16:13-15], He can know the future [Acts 21:11], He can bear witness [Jn 15:26], He can teach [Jn 14:26], He can reprove [Jn 16:8-11], He can pray and intercede [Rom 8:26], He can be grieved [Eph 4:30], He can feel hurt [Is 63:10], He can be outraged [Heb 10:29], He can desire [Gal 5:17], and He can be blasphemed [Mk 3:29]. You see, shyper07, only a person is capable of these actions.

Here is a little proof for the divinity of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 5:1-4
"1 But a man named Ananias with his wife Sapphira sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Here we see that a lie to the Holy Spirit is a lie to God, why? Because the Holy Spirit is God! :eek:

Isaiah 44:24
"24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth-- Who was with me?”

compared with

Psalm 104:30
“30 When thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created; and thou renewest the face of the ground.”

In Isaiah we see that God alone created, but then in Psalms we see that the Spirit created.

Jeremiah 31:33
“33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

compared with

Hebrews 10:15-16
"15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds.”

Scripture says that the Holy Spirit said what God said in Jeremiah, that’s very convincing.

These are just some of many examples of the Holy Spirit’s personhood and divinity.
 
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