Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David

[Lapell]

God is absolutely One.

The Trinity cannot be one because the second person of the Trinity is said to exhibit the wounds of the crucifixion. One needs a body to exhibit wounds. If Jesus brought to heaven his body along, he is no longer the same in essence. Therefore,
all that Polytheism needs to assert itself is just more than one god. It means that Chritianity cannot be called a Monotheistic religion.

Ben:

Like I said earlier, how do you know it can’t be? Are you telling us that you absolutely know EVERYTHING about the One and Only True God? I thought He is clothed in mystery, though He chose to lift up some of the veil on His mystery…

 

[Lapell]

Sorry, but I am afraid that the way you have been playing up to now is no
longer good. I have revealed your trick. Your cards have no more value on the table. The name of your game is Church tradition. It doesn’t go that way any more. It has to be written, even in your TN. If it’s Jewish I will accept; if it’s not Jewish, I will reject as interpolation. Don’t forget that Jesus was Jewish. Therefore, anything non Jewish about him, is an adulteration of the text.

Ben:

“It doesn’t go that way any more”… You mean that it used to be true before but isn’t nowadays? Howcould this be, Ben? Isn’t truth a perennial thing?
As for being not Jewish, I don’t know how you can tell everything that’s Jewish from the things not Jewish? The Israelites from the Northern Kingdom (the Kingdom of Israel) were deported, so the Scriptures tell us, because of their sins piling to Heaven. The same was said of the people of the Kingdom of Judah. They didn’t renounce their sins, they didn’t care much what their God would tell them through the prophets. In the process they must have made quite fixed ideas (false images) of their own God in their minds and hearts!
How are you sure the Jews of today have not made fixed ideas about how God works. He is not only the God of the Jewish people. He did choose the Jewish people, yes!!
Now, the Church is spiritually Jewish. This has shocked a number of nominal Catholics, and many among other Christians as well. But with all the things in the Catholic Church that you can find that comes from Judaism, how can you say we follow Greek mythology?
I understand it may seem so to you, Ben, and to many other Jews, probably most of them, as such, but it just isn’t. Sorry!

 

[Lapell]

reen12;4939370:

Yes, you are right; and many other Pagan religions, but not in Judaism. Jesus was Jewish; therefore, anything non-Jewish about him was not true.

(Lapell) -“Anything non-Jewish”…How do YOU determine the Jewish from the non-Jewish? Jews are humans just as the other peoples are. Where in your TaNaKH is it said that nothing further would be revealed of the God of Israel, eh?

John, the cousin of Jesus, or John the Baptist never wrote an account of the life of Jesus. (Lapell) -So what?!

You must be confusing John the Baptist with John the Apostle. But even so, this John was a member of the Nazarenes, followers of Jesus and he would never refer to Jesus in mythological terms. This was for Christians to include in their realm about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. And regarding the saying that in Jesus were all things created, Isaiah, the Prophet is only too clear that when God created the Universe, He was alone and none was with Him.(Isa. 44:24)

This is not John’s theology. As I said above, John was a Nazarene. This theology above reflects the Pauline mind in one of his disciples, who probably wrote the fourth gospel.

Logos as the Word of God cannot be a distinct divine being, but the creative emanation of God.(Lapell) -What’s making you say that because the Word comes out from God, that the Word can"t be God? You must have made Heaven and earth!!!

This is precisely what Paul said: “If the dead won’t resurrect, let’s eat and drink for tomorrow we die”. (I Cor. 15:32) To me this reflects conditional faith. That Paul instead of serving God for the sake of being God our Creator, he would serve for what he could get out of it. That’s purely a business relationship. And regarding what Peter answered to Jesus, he didn’t. That’s an interpolation added to the text about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. Peter was one of the Nazarenes headquartered in Jerusalem and coexisting peacefully with the regular Jews. When Paul appeared preaching that Jesus was the Christ son of God, he nearly got killed for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem. This only proves that Peter was not aware of such a thing about Jesus.
Ben:

It doesn’t necessarily prove it! In a time of persecution, is it in the interest of all that they would all show up at the same time and have everybody beaten, stoned and dead when the Lord’s command to them was to spread the Gospel in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth? “There’s a time to shut up, and a time to speak up.” Your time must always be the time, I take it?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Like I said earlier, how do you know it can’t be? Are you telling us that you absolutely know EVERYTHING about the One and Only True God? I thought He is clothed in mystery, though He chose to lift up some of the veil on His mystery…

**Yes, you are right. The Almighty is indeed clothed in mystery. And you are also right that He has chosen to lift up some of that veil. What you don’t remember or refuse to acknowledge is that He did that when He entrusted Israel only with His Word, and no other people on earth. Read Psalm 147:19,20 and get yourself elated with the news.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4939617:

It doesn’t necessarily prove it! In a time of persecution, is it in the interest of all that they would all show up at the same time and have everybody beaten, stoned and dead when the Lord’s command to them was to spread the Gospel in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth? “There’s a time to shut up, and a time to speak up.” Your time must always be the time, I take it?

**What does it mean, that the time to shut up lasted about 30 years from the time Jesus was gone till the time Paul showed up in Jerusalem to break that time and speak up about Jesus being the Messiah, son of God, and that he resurrected?
Try again Lapell. You can do much better.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

“It doesn’t go that way any more”… You mean that it used to be true before but isn’t nowadays? Howcould this be, Ben? Isn’t truth a perennial thing?

 

[Lapell]

**Yes, you are right. The Almighty is indeed clothed in mystery. And you are also right that He has chosen to lift up some of that veil. What you don’t remember or refuse to acknowledge is that He did that when He entrusted Israel only with His Word, and no other people on earth. Read Psalm 147:19,20 and get yourself elated with the news.

Ben: **

When was that psalm written, Ben? In Jesus’ times?

 

[Lapell]

Lapell;4947900:

**What does it mean, that the time to shut up lasted about 30 years from the time Jesus was gone till the time Paul showed up in Jerusalem to break that time and speak up about Jesus being the Messiah, son of God, and that he resurrected?
Try again Lapell. You can do much better.

Ben: **

Well, Ben, I thought you would have read in the Acts of the Apostles that before this happened to Paul, the Church WAS indeed persecuted. Have you read about the Apostle James who was executed by Herod (I think it was Herod Antipas) and Peter was arrested shortly after in order to be executed on a special festival day. From that time on, they would have to meet underground. And don’t forget the first Christian martyr, Stephen, who was stoned to death by a group of Jews (among them was Saul of Tarse)… Certainly not a reason to go more quietly, really!!!

 

[Lapell]

I mean it can’t be that way anymore because I have arrived with the truth about what it is to be Jewish.

What do you mean by “I have arrived with the truth about what it is to be Jewish”?
How does it guarantee us that you know from A to Z what is Jewish. Even if you are Jewish, you are only one Jew, not all the Jews altogether, and there may be a corner of what I will call the ‘Jewishness house’ which you still would not know about even to this day… that is, unless you are God Himself!

 

[Lapell]

I live this life of being Jewish. I know the difference between being Christian or Catholic and being Jewish. To be or not to be, that’s the question.

The difference betwwen Jews and Christians (or Catholics)? This would suppose that you would know a Christian (or Catholic) from the inside, dear Ben… Which I doubt that you do, except for some things here and there…
I don’t pretend to know everything about the Jews. How could I? I am not a Jew myself!
And what about those from among the Jewish people who have become disciples of Jesus?

 

[Lapell]

I have explained everything in the thread above.

Ben

Have you really, Ben? Sin is also a mystery, and who can plumb a mystery and explain it out completely? You have come with a possible theory, maybe already told by some others before, but between something that is “possible” or “plausible” and what actually happened, you know from detective mystery novels that there might be quite a gap unbridged! Isn’t it true?

 

[Lapell]

We wrote the Bible. Who better than the author knows about their book?

Ben:

I don’t recall of any Scripture titled: “The Book of Ben Masada”!!! The author certainly would about their book… but most Jews were listeners or readers of the Bible.
I know: there is a command for each Jew to copy the whole Torah (or is it the whole TaNaKH?), but to just copy it doesn’t automatically make you its author, does it??

 

[Lapell]

Is the above for the laughs or for the gags? Don’t you think you are dreaming? There is nothing Jewish about the Church. Your statement only reflects lack of what is to be Jewish. I am sorry.

Ben:

It’s more Jewish than you’d think, Ben! And more than I would have thought. For instance, how our Catholic priests used to be vested for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Also, what were your sacrifices of thanksgiving made of? I heard somebody state that they were made of bread and wine… Is it true?

 

[Lapell]

It doesn’t necessarily prove it! In a time of persecution, is it in the interest of all that they would all show up at the same time and have everybody beaten, stoned and dead when the Lord’s command to them was to spread the Gospel in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth? “There’s a time to shut up, and a time to speak up.” Your time must always be the time, I take it?

 

[Lapell]

It’s more Jewish than you’d think, Ben! And more than I would have thought. For instance, how our Catholic priests used to be vested for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Also, what were your sacrifices of thanksgiving made of? I heard somebody state that they were made of bread and wine… Is it true?

And I am sure you never would have read Second Exodus by a Jew who became Catholic, Martin Barrack. There is more of the things Catholic which actually do come from Judaism… even though we may use them slightly differently!

 

[Lapell]

You have all the right in the world to rewrite your dream.

Ben

Was I talking about MY dream. Ben? And was it YOUR dream that God would choose a people for Himself and that that people would be your own?
Was it all that God has dreamed, really?

 

[Lapell]

The Almighty is indeed clothed in mystery. And you are also right that He has chosen to lift up some of that veil.]

I don’t need to tell you, an observant Jew, how of supreme importance this is! Of supreme importance!

 

[Ben_Masada]

I don’t need to tell you, an observant Jew, how of supreme importance this is! Of supreme importance!

**And guess what? You are again 101 percent right. Let God bless you with a special blessing from Yerushalaim.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Was I talking about MY dream. Ben? And was it YOUR dream that God would choose a people for Himself and that that people would be your own?
Was it all that God has dreamed, really?

**Well my friend, reality stands before your own eyes.

Ben: **

 

[Lapell]

**Well my friend, reality stands before your own eyes.

Ben: **

Reality would be shocking to you if you could see it as it is yourself. Especially since you claim to know it all just because God lifted a corner of the veil to the Jews!
BTW, you probably read the Gospel according to Matthew, chapter 16, where Jesus asks his apostles:“Who do you say that I am?” You certainly read Peter’s answer, and what Jesus told him then.
Now, one day, recently, Jesus came into a class and after a while He asked the students: “Who do you say that I am?” One student then said: “You are Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God!” And Jesus said: “Good answer, John! Only, it wasn’t revealed to you by my Father Who is in Heaven.”