Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4902510:

So when you die, what happens to you?

Nothing else Ralphinal. Death is the last thing to happen to us. Isn’t that wonderful! Rest for the rest of eternity. Imagine if there was no death! Life would have no
meaning. The Greek gods of the Olympian Pantheon must have envied us when they lived.
They thought they were immortal. Thanks God there is no afterlife. These are the ones whose service to God is acceptable, because that’s not a conditional service. We serve God because it’s in the Jewish nature to do so and not with an eye in reward of afterlife.

I don’t blame you for worrying about what will happen to you when you die. You have inherited this attitude from Paul, who declared that if the dead won’t resurrect, let’s ear and drink for tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) His loyalty to God was conditioned by the resurrection of the dead. If it were not according to what he expected, might as well make a carnival out of his life and die tomorrow. That’s conditional faith, as all faith naturally is.

Ben:

 

[swariffin]

ralphinal;4904744:

Nothing else Ralphinal. Death is the last thing to happen to us. Isn’t that wonderful! Rest for the rest of eternity. Imagine if there was no death! Life would have no
meaning. The Greek gods of the Olympian Pantheon must have envied us when they lived.
They thought they were immortal. Thanks God there is no afterlife. These are the ones whose service to God is acceptable, because that’s not a conditional service. We serve God because it’s in the Jewish nature to do so and not with an eye in reward of afterlife.

I don’t blame you for worrying about what will happen to you when you die. You have inherited this attitude from Paul, who declared that if the dead won’t resurrect, let’s ear and drink for tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) His loyalty to God was conditioned by the resurrection of the dead. If it were not according to what he expected, might as well make a carnival out of his life and die tomorrow. That’s conditional faith, as all faith naturally is.

Ben:

I see. In Jesus time, when He rose Lazarus from death in front of many people, the Jews planned to kill him again. In Modern time, the job is easier. Simply deny that on the basis it is irrational for man to rise from death. You guys are thinking that God should follow your human logic.

For me it is logical that God somehow is mad at you. How can I conclude that? Simple. The Israel is a strong nation now, capable of destroying anything. But, still unable to rebuild your own temple. That is a simple logic to conclude and no faith is needed.

Second, The Israelite seems cannot escape from the threat surrounding them. They can still fire rockets at your children. That is a sad thing, and I don’t like it either even though I am not a Jewish. Problem is, your own power even supported by your uncle Sam can not make you live peacefully. The Chinese, I know kept on depleting their near expired ammo inventory and sell them at a good discounted value to the Hamas, FOB Shanghai. Don’t bother telling the MOSSAD. They knew that already, but unable to do a damn thing about that. So much of depending on humanly power.

Third. If human as intended by God to live peacefully (you believe in the Genesis, don’t you), then it is logical to come back toward God. If you cannot live peacefully, then it is logical to conclude that there was something that you did wrong.

 

[swariffin]

ralphinal;4904744:

Nothing else Ralphinal. Death is the last thing to happen to us. Isn’t that wonderful! Rest for the rest of eternity. Imagine if there was no death! Life would have no
meaning. The Greek gods of the Olympian Pantheon must have envied us when they lived.
They thought they were immortal. Thanks God there is no afterlife. These are the ones whose service to God is acceptable, because that’s not a conditional service. We serve God because it’s in the Jewish nature to do so and not with an eye in reward of afterlife.

I don’t blame you for worrying about what will happen to you when you die. You have inherited this attitude from Paul, who declared that if the dead won’t resurrect, let’s ear and drink for tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) His loyalty to God was conditioned by the resurrection of the dead. If it were not according to what he expected, might as well make a carnival out of his life and die tomorrow. That’s conditional faith, as all faith naturally is.

Ben:

I just realize that there is a Jew who does not believe in resurrection. Sorry. I sincerely tell you that I think that the Jews believe in resurrection at the end of time. If that so, no wonder I see that you cannot resolve your quarrels with your neighbors. You guys want to gain as much as you can at the expense of others, before you die.

BTW, I agree with you. We serve God, because God has served and continue serving us before and after.

 

[Valke2]

ralphinal;4904744:

Nothing else Ralphinal. Death is the last thing to happen to us. Isn’t that wonderful! Rest for the rest of eternity. Imagine if there was no death! Life would have no
meaning. The Greek gods of the Olympian Pantheon must have envied us when they lived.
They thought they were immortal. Thanks God there is no afterlife. These are the ones whose service to God is acceptable, because that’s not a conditional service. We serve God because it’s in the Jewish nature to do so and not with an eye in reward of afterlife.

I don’t blame you for worrying about what will happen to you when you die. You have inherited this attitude from Paul, who declared that if the dead won’t resurrect, let’s ear and drink for tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) His loyalty to God was conditioned by the resurrection of the dead. If it were not according to what he expected, might as well make a carnival out of his life and die tomorrow. That’s conditional faith, as all faith naturally is.

Ben:

Normative Judaism holds a belief in an afterlife/world to come. Although there’s no set dogma on what it is.

Belief in resurrection of the dead is one of Rambam’s 13 Principles of Faith. The second blessing of the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, which is recited three times daily, contains several references to resurrection.

The resurrection of the dead will occur in the messianic age, a time referred to in Hebrew as the Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come, but that term is also used to refer to the spiritual afterlife. When the messiah comes to initiate the perfect world of peace and prosperity, the righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. The wicked dead will not be resurrected.

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm#Resurrection

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4904860:

Normative Judaism holds a belief in an afterlife/world to come. Although there’s no set dogma on what it is.

I’ll tell you what it is. This world-to-come is the world of the grave. That’s why we all say that there is a place in the world-to-come for everyone Jews and non-Jews.
Just a matter of commonsense.

Belief in resurrection of the dead is one of Rambam’s 13 Principles of Faith. The second blessing of the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, which is recited three times daily, contains several references to resurrection.

Valke2, I hate to argue with another Jew, but I am too much of an admirer of the Rambam’s mind to agree with you that he was referring to resurrection of dead people when he included that principle of faith in the Shemoneh Esrei prayer. Regardless of what he had in mind, that’s the only thing I don’t appreciate because it contributed to enhance superstitions among the unlearnt of the Jews.

The resurrection of the dead will occur in the messianic age, a time referred to in Hebrew as the Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come, but that term is also used to refer to the spiritual afterlife.

We are living in the Messianic age. The Messiah has returned for the third time already, and you are still waiting for him? Take a look at my new thread, “The Concept of a Coming Messiah.” You might find it interesting.

When the messiah comes to initiate the perfect world of peace and prosperity, the righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. The wicked dead will not be resurrected.

Wow, Valke2, you are giving me the impression I am discussing with a Christian. All you had to say is that the wicked dead would resurrect to go to hell and that
the perfect world would be in Heaven.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4904860:

I just realize that there is a Jew who does not believe in resurrection. Sorry. I sincerely tell you that I think that the Jews believe in resurrection at the end of time. If that so, no wonder I see that you cannot resolve your quarrels with your neighbors. You guys want to gain as much as you can at the expense of others, before you die.

BTW, I agree with you. We serve God, because God has served and continue serving us before and after.

There are many Jews who believe in resurrection of dead people. Who said that superstitions have borders? So, you thought that Jews believed in resurrection at the end of time. What are you talking about? There is no end of time as long as there is a body to move. Time is measured by movement. Your last statement makes no sense.

So, you serve God because God serves you! Do you see what I mean by conditional servitude? What about if God stops serving you? Then, in revenge, you will stop serving Him? You guys make God so small and anthropomorphic! It’s amazing!

Ben:

 

[ralphinal]

If there is no after-life, why should I care one iota about a God at all?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4904860:

I see. In Jesus time, when He rose Lazarus from death in front of many people, the Jews planned to kill him again. In Modern time, the job is easier. Simply deny that on the basis it is irrational for man to rise from death. You guys are thinking that God should follow your human logic.

Do you believe there are contradictions in the Tanach? I am sure your answer is no. Here is another question: Do you believe Jesus was Jewish? I am sure you do. Therefore, Jesus never resurrected Lazarus. An observant Jew like Jesus would not cause a contradiction in the Tanach. Tell me, is it rational for a man to rise from death? I know God can make that happen, but why would He do that, because you want Him to have done that? God does not have to follow our logic. God is the absolute beginning and end of Logic.

For me it is logical that God somehow is mad at you. How can I conclude that? Simple. The Israel is a strong nation now, capable of destroying anything. But, still unable to rebuild your own temple. That is a simple logic to conclude and no faith is needed.

It doesn’t matter how logical it seems to you that God is mad at us. You guys will never be able to understand our special relationship with God. I’ll tell you in very simple words so that you will have an idea. God can never renounce Israel, who has been betrothed to Him. God does chastise her, but it’s like the chastisement of the jealous lover, longing to bring back the beloved to the fresh and pure joy of their first love. If God ever rejects Israel forever, it’s because He has decided to make the natural laws stop functioning. (Jer. 31:35-37) That’s the meaning of universal catastrophe.

Second, The Israelite seems cannot escape from the threat surrounding them. They can still fire rockets at your children. That is a sad thing, and I don’t like it either even though I am not a Jewish. Problem is, your own power even supported by your uncle Sam can not make you live peacefully. The Chinese, I know kept on depleting their near expired ammo inventory and sell them at a good discounted value to the Hamas, FOB Shanghai. Don’t bother telling the MOSSAD. They knew that already, but unable to do a damn thing about that. So much of depending on humanly power.

We can escape from surrounding threats. We don’t choose to do it once and for all, because we have chosen to be too lenient. And because when we returned this time to Israel, we brought with us the wichedness of Politics. Because we have made the mistake to listen to the non-Jew.

What seems to me is that the Jew as a People has lost his God-giving understanding that the world needs us to survive, and has replaced that identity as if we need the world to survive. We have missed the real meaning of Jesus words to the Samaritan woman when he said that the salvation of the world is from the Jews. (John 4:22)

Third. If human as intended by God to live peacefully (you believe in the Genesis, don’t you), then it is logical to come back toward God. If you cannot live peacefully, then it is logical to conclude that there was something that you did wrong.

It doesn’t matter what we did wrong. Of the other nations, God will eventually make an end of them; but of Israel, He will only chastise as we deserve. Take a look at Jeremiah 46:28 if it’s not thus that He speaks.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

If there is no after-life, why should I care one iota about a God at all?

Do you have any idea about the size of the Pauline blasphemy you have just said? Pauline, because he was the first one to say that if the dead won’t resurrect, let’s eat and drink because tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) You have told me in other words that your faith is conditional. Your servitude to God is based on the reward of afterlife. It means that God is not what you love or serve but what you can get for doing so. It means that between you and God the relation is purely businesslike. I am not so sorry to hear that because you are not Jewish. Ask any Jew if he would continue loyal to God if he was sure that there is no afterlife. I would be terribly surprised if his answer could be like yours. To me personally, it doesn’t mean a thing if everything ends up with the death of the body, which by the way is what I believe it does. My relationship with the
Almighty will be the same till that day arrives. I’ll be always grateful to Him for life, health and a mind to develop my Intellect. Praised be the Creator of the Universe!

Ben:

 

[ralphinal]

Do you have any idea about the size of the Pauline blasphemy you have just said? Pauline, because he was the first one to say that if the dead won’t resurrect, let’s eat and drink because tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) You have told me in other words that your faith is conditional. Your servitude to God is based on the reward of afterlife. It means that God is not what you love or serve but what you can get for doing so. It means that between you and God the relation is purely businesslike. I am not so sorry to hear that because you are not Jewish. Ask any Jew if he would continue loyal to God if he was sure that there is no afterlife. I would be terribly surprised if his answer could be like yours. To me personally, it doesn’t mean a thing if everything ends up with the death of the body, which by the way is what I believe it does. My relationship with the
Almighty will be the same till that day arrives. I’ll be always grateful to Him for life, health and a mind to develop my Intellect. Praised be the Creator of the Universe!

Ben:

Is it possible to be Jewish and not even believe in God at all?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Is it possible to be Jewish and not even believe in God at all?

No. But only for the simple fact that there is no Jew on earth who can say from the bottom of his heart or his mind that he absolutely does not believe in God.
He or she might tell you so but to get rid of your attempts at bothering him or her. Every Jew knows that we are the channels of God on earth. They might say they don’t believe in a religious god. But a Jew is not a fool or stupid being to declare that there is no God, if he can’t prove it. That’s in Psalm 14 and 53.

Once someone asked Albert Einstein if he believed in God. He answered and said that all
his life was to try to catch God at His work of Creation. It means God has never stopped creating. And in fact, Scientists have proved that the Universe expands. That’s God in His work of Creation, according to Einstein.

Ben:

 

[Lev23]

Now, let me explain by way of an analogy how Israel or Messiah ben Joseph who is the Suffering Servant died innocently of the sins of Judah or Messiah ben David: “A” and “B”. “A” has committed a crime punishable with death, and “B”, by mistake was condemned for that crime. It doesn’t matter how evil is “B” in his life or how bad are his sins. The point is that he was condemned to die for the crime of “A”. Therefore “B” was killed innocent and pure of the crimes and sins of “A”. “A” got saved by the death of “B”. So, “B” was the Suffering Servant that brought salvation to “A”. Now matching the analogy to reality, “A” was Judah that pierced “B” with his crimes and sins.

Now, with the removal of Messiah ben Joseph, Messiah be David occupied the place of the Suffering Servant with reference to the rest of Mankind because of God’s promise to Noah that humanity would never be destroyed again in an universal manner. (Gen. 8:21) The People-redeemer was the pledge and on his way in the near future with the choice of Abraham through Isaac. That’s what sustains the world and allows it to keep going.

…There is a huge difference. My view is Jewish. Yours is Greek. Since Jesus was Jewish and not Greek, it means your view is prone to fail from the onset.

Ben

Ben, the reality is, that the Spring Festivals of Passover, First Fruits, and Shavout have been perfectly fulfilled in the first advent of Yeshua as Messiah ben Joseph. The Fall Festivals of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles will be fulfilled in his second advent as Messiah ben David.

The Christian view is indeed a very Jewish view!!!

 

[East_Anglican]

The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the dramatic epic of two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. The drama that culminated in the “death” of Messiah ben Joseph for the sins of Messiah ben David. Properly speaking, Messiah ben Joseph is Ephraim or Israel, the Ten Tribes of the Northern Kingdom. And Messiah ben David is Judah, the Southern Kingdom.

The sins of Judah had filled the Divine cup, and in God’s judgment, the day had arrived for the removal of Judah. (Isa. 9:8) But according to I Kings 11:36, God had promised David that Judah, whose Tribe he had come from, would stay forever as a Lamp in Jerusalem. Therefore, according to Isaiah 9:8, the final judgment that was supposed to come to Judah fell upon Israel instead, and Messiah ben Joseph had to go instead of Judah. In other words, Israel had to redeem Judah.

But Isaiah says in 53:9 that the Suffering Servant was without guile, and sinless. That’s exactly what Israel was: Pure of the sins he died for, since they were the sins of Judah and not his. Messiah ben Joseph therefore, did not die for his sins but for the sins of Messiah ben David. Therefore, Israel was removed because of the sins of another. He was pierced so to speak, by the sins of Judah. The sacrifice of Israel or Messiah ben Joseph meant the salvation of Judah or Messiah ben David. That’s why Zechariah in 12:10 says that they (Judah) shall look upon him (Israel) whom they (Judah) had pierced with their sins, and mourn for him (Israel) as the one who mourns for his firstborn.

Now, let me explain by way of an analogy how Israel or Messiah ben Joseph who is the Suffering Servant died innocently of the sins of Judah or Messiah ben David: “A” and “B”. “A” has committed a crime punishable with death, and “B”, by mistake was condemned for that crime. It doesn’t matter how evil is “B” in his life or how bad are his sins. The point is that he was condemned to die for the crime of “A”. Therefore “B” was killed innocent and pure of the crimes and sins of “A”. “A” got saved by the death of “B”. So, “B” was the Suffering Servant that brought salvation to “A”. Now matching the analogy to reality, “A” was Judah that pierced “B” with his crimes and sins.

Now, with the removal of Messiah ben Joseph, Messiah be David occupied the place of the Suffering Servant with reference to the rest of Mankind because of God’s promise to Noah that humanity would never be destroyed again in an universal manner. (Gen. 8:21) The People-redeemer was the pledge and on his way in the near future with the choice of Abraham through Isaac. That’s what sustains the world and allows it to keep going.

Ben

Yeah yeah yeah. and the second messiah didn’t die and the first one told his diciples a secret and you know that secret and if we listen to you we won’t lose our salvation but obtain secret knowledge. The message so far sounds like something said in genesis chapter 3.

Now this secret knowledge isn’t really secret knowledge at all.

That secret knowledge is about the Gnostic system which is the nonsense that a higher god, infinitely superior to the God of the Old Testament, sends periodic illuminators to earth with a secret message to draw back to heaven the inner divine sparks of receptive human beings hopelessly caught in utter darkness. According to this worldview, the Old Testament God is an inferior and ignorant God, responsible for creating the lowest sphere of existence, the earth, where all the evil of the cosmos had dredged. Material things, including human bodies, if not evil, are the seat of evil, and to be escaped from. So in Gnostic thinking the eternal Christ, who was the son of the higher god and not the Son of the God of the Old Testament, could not truly have taken human flesh. Instead, he temporarily entered into Jesus at his baptism and later, at some point during his arrest and suffering, left the material body and returned to the sphere of light.

In the Gnostic system, the saving death and resurrection of Christ play no role and they are usually entirely omitted. The one killed is not the Son of God, but only the human Jesus, whose body presumably decayed to dust. What is decisive for the Gnostic view is not the person of Jesus the Christ, crucified and risen, but the Gnostic “gospel” itself, that is, the message of the secret Gnostic system. This system was thought to provide the key to a kind of self-salvation through self-knowledge and self-realization in the discovery of the inner divine self.

That Jesus passed on a single secret to a single is absurd. Jesus conducted an open ministry addressing his message to all and publicly conflicting with religious leaders over such issues as the Sabbath observance, the ritual washing of hands, and the temple activities. Not even radical critics would deny essential truth in these words of Jesus: “I have spoken openly to the world; I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together; I have said nothing secretly” (John 18:20).

 

[Trishie]

Holy Spirit of God please inspire Ben and all doubters of the truths of our faith and of the true teachings and the mission of Jesus, that in fighting against them they find and welcome Jesus and His Church in all its richness and truth.

 

[Valke2]

Valke2;4905382:

Ben Masada;4904860:

Wow, Valke2, you are giving me the impression I am discussing with a Christian. All you had to say is that the wicked dead would resurrect to go to hell and that
the perfect world would be in Heaven.

Ben:

Not sure why you would get that impression. My post merely set forth some of the most basic and universal beliefs in Judaism.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, the reality is, that the Spring Festivals of Passover, First Fruits, and Shavout have been perfectly fulfilled in the first advent of Yeshua as Messiah ben Joseph. The Fall Festivals of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles will be fulfilled in his second advent as Messiah ben David.

The Christian view is indeed a very Jewish view!!!

And who has decided that, you or you are just adobting Pauline rhetoric?

Ben:

 

[Lev23]

And who has decided that, you or you are just adobting Pauline rhetoric?

Ben:

No need to be confused. I’m sure you read the gospels. Yeshua was sacrificed, put in a tomb(buried), rose from the dead, and sent the promised Holy Spirit to the church exactly on each of the Spring Festivals.

Like I stated earlier, Yeshua, the Jews Jew!

 

[Valke2]

Is it possible to be Jewish and not even believe in God at all?

Yes. That person would be jewish and violating one of the tenets of Judaism.

 

[Lev23]

Hi Valke2, I hope you don’t suppose I am speaking about really dead people coming back to life. Ezekiel is speaking about the graves of the nations where Jews are in exile or simply living in the Diaspora. Their decision to return to the Land of the Living, which Isaiah calls the Land of Israel in Isaiah 53:8,9, would be resurrection.

Absolutely irrational is to think of real dead people coming back to life, and for what, to live again where? God is not a God of the dead but of the living. God does not need dead people to repopulate the earth. The living can do that.

Ben:

Yeshua has taken the sting of death for us all. Because of his death and resurrection, our bodies are sown in dishonor,but will be raised in glory. Our corruptable bodies will become uncorruptable.

On the day Yeshua was resurrected, other people were raised also and could be seen in Jerusalem. Yeshua was the first to be permantly resurrected, he is our firstfruits. Those that were raised and were walking around Jerusalem were Yeshua’s firstfruit offerings. For Yeshua is not a farmer who raises crops, but the Son of God who raises up people!!!

Now that Christ is raised, those who belong to him go to him when their bodies die, awaiting for the time to be united with our glorified bodies. The God of Israel is the God of the living!

 

[Ben_Masada]

Yeshua has taken the sting of death for us all. Because of his death and resurrection, our bodies are sown in dishonor,but will be raised in glory. Our corruptable bodies will become uncorruptable.

On the day Yeshua was resurrected, other people were raised also and could be seen in Jerusalem. Yeshua was the first to be permantly resurrected, he is our firstfruits. Those that were raised and were walking around Jerusalem were Yeshua’s firstfruit offerings. For Yeshua is not a farmer who raises crops, but the Son of God who raises up people!!!

Now that Christ is raised, those who belong to him go to him when their bodies die, awaiting for the time to be united with our glorified bodies. The God of Israel is the God of the living!

That’s a post that makes anyone believe that faith moves mountains. More than moves; it removes mountains. More than removes; it makes the mountains exchange places with each other. More than exchange places; it makes them dance with each other.

Ben: