Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David

[Ben_Masada]

Where did you get this information from?

Do you remember who wrote the Bible? We did it. The Jews wrote the Bible. If the Gentile reader has any question, Isaiah says that the address is Zion, the Jewish People. (Isa. 2:2,3) Now, you know where I got this information from.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

I think I need to apologize. I had to read the other posts to realise that Ben Masada’s OP might be part of a debate which may still exist among Jews. I tended not to think so…
Now, I confess I had never heard of a Messiah ben Joseph in the Old Testament. I believe that the Jews consider the kings of Judah as messiahs since they were “anointed” as kings. I take it the kings of Israel (the northern Kingdom) would be also considered as messiahs for the same reason?

Now, there seems to be some confusion in Ben Masada’s explanations. He starts by talking about “Messiah ben Joseph”, then he calls it Israel, but the prophets’ messages mostly refer to the northern kingdom as Ephraim!

 

[Lapell]

You remind me of the guy who, in a small group of ten people, made in the loto and was very happy. When he found out that all ten had made the same amount of money in the same loto, his happiness was shortlived. He had found out a weak trace of human character: That what makes you happy is not what you get but what others don’t. You are too focused on afterlife rewards. And if there is Heaven, you won’t be happy there because you are going to see others in there with you. You’ll be happy only if you will be the only one in Heaven. There won’t be any comfort to you in there if you see someone who caused good people to suffer.

Ben:

And you don’t believe God will transform you and me and others so that we would be in Heaven together? You don’t believe He can do that? Isn’t He God Almighty?
And you don’t believe that God can grant someone true regret and the strength to turn away from his grave sins for good? Say, are you a Reform Jew?

 

[Lapell]

Lapell;4918671:

Must I remind you that’s the NON-Catholic section of the Forum? If you can’t handle the Truth, I should be the one to ask you what you are doing in a non-Catholic section of the Forum.

Ben:

This indeed is the non-Catholic section… of a Catholic forum!
As for “handling” the Truth… I thought one should be very careful not to play with it.
“Thou shalt not bear false witness”, like the rest of the Ten Words – or Commandments – is to be taken very seriously, is it not? There IS such a thing as objective Truth, whether we like it or not!
How do you know that you are in THE Truth when you say to me the things you do? You may believe they are true, but you may believe a false thing to be true! How are you so sure?
Speaking of “truth” now… Why didn’t you mind, on your other thread on the Wedding at Cana, presenting Jesus and Mary Magdalen as the married people right there when the Gospel according to John says very specifically that Jesus and his disciples were “invited” there?
Since when is the bridegroom in the wedding invited there, tell me?
And now, you said that you are a Jew. My question is, Are you a rabbi?

 

[Lapell]

Lapell;4918792:

No, sir. None of the Apostles was Greek. They were all Jewish. That’s why none of the writings of the NT was written by any of them. Two reasons: The first is too much non-Jewish stuff in there. The second reason is that none of the writings of the Nazarenes was approved into the Canon of the NT in 327 CE by the Fathers of the Church
due to the controversial character of their writings vis-a-vis the writings of Paul.

Regarding resurrection, you are right. There were Jews then and still many today who believe in resurrection. But for lack of Scriptural knowledge. Resurrection of dead people in Christian terms serve only to create contradictions for the Tanach, which says a lot against it. You can check these passages: Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezek. 26:20. I have ommitted Ecclesiastes, which is famous against resurrection.

Ben:

“None of the writings of the Nazarenes”, now… you have misread Catholic history, sir, I am sure. Are you really interested in what really happened? Yes, for some of the texts, it took a while before some of the Church Fathers accept them. But after discussion, when came the time to include in the Canon of the New Testament all that was to be included, ALL the writings we have in our New Testament today WERE included! When the Hebrew Bible was put together, has there not been any discussion whatsoever whether to include or not some of the books? Whatever happened then, ALL the books in the Hebrew Bible were accepted, were they not? And all were finally included there, were they not? I never questioned that on the basis of the discussions, maybe some of them sour, that may have happened prior to the setting of the Canon of the Hebrew Bible as we know it today. (I haven’t mentioned the Septuagint Bible here because I suspect you only would use the TaNaKH or Massoretan Bible).

 

[Lapell]

If Biblical quotations is what you need, I can give you some but you have to unglue yourself from the letter and be able to see the truth through metaphors or allegories.

Ben:

Aha! so this is where you are… Since when do you dismiss entirely litteral meanings in proper interpretation of any Scripture? Whose rule for interpretation of the Holy Scriptures do you follow? The ones I happen to have read (from Jewish rabbis, sir!) never dismiss the litteral meaning, it’s even the first one to pay attention to in proper Biblical interpretation… Therefore, I don’t need to “unglue” myself from it, on the contrary! Otherwise you might let your imagination take the best of you, and imagination alone cannot be trusted when your goal is objective Truth… otherwise, you can be well deceived! You should know that…

 

[Lapell]

Are you asking what I can make of TV stuff, or movies or utopia? That’s what it is. Any group found in the observance of nostalgic Jewish practices, that’s what it is. Nostalgia. They have become Gentiles. If they want to join they must convert just like any Gentile does. It’s true that sometimes things get political as what has happened with Ethyopians. They have been brought over more politically than Halarchically. The Israeli Rabbinate does not endorse their Jewishness as fast as they wish it could.

Ben:

From what you are describing, it could then be members of some of the Lost Tribes, then. And why should THEY need to convert to be recognized as true Israelites (unless you meant as true Jews?) when the Jews who became atheists can still be legally called Jews? This is something that is hard for us non-Jews to understand… I can understand, though, that it may be so in Jewish Law because of what laws are there specifically written, quite simply.

 

[Lapell]

Lapell;4918310:

That’s the easiest answer I am going to give today. We are on this earth and live because we were born. Don’t tell me you didn’t think about that before you asked!
Regarding the second question, it is not for me but for our parents. Ask yours why you exist. They are to blame for your existence. They didn’t consult with you if you wanted to be born. They just went into each other and you came out. Now, tell me doesn’t it make sense?

Ben:

Which leads to another question: why did the first human beings exist and live? Or why did the first creature in the universe exist? and the first planet, and the first star? the first thing or being ever created… ?
Yes?

 

[Lapell]

Very good question! The sins of Judah were crying out to God from the soil. Therefore, God decided to decree Judah’s removal from existence because Judah had rejected God’s Covenant. To break a Covenant is human; to reject it is insurrection. (Isa. 8:6) However, God had promised David that He would spare Judah. (I Kings. 11:36)
Therefore, Israel needed to redeem Judah, because God had not compromised His Word with anyone else about Israel. So, according to Isaiah 9:8 the decree to remove Judah fell upon Israel. And Israel had to die for the insurrection of Judah. So Israel died without sin.

At last I remembered to erase "

"!!!
Now with my question. So, not a chance that the Kingdom of Israel was exiled because their own sins cried out to God? Are you saying that Hosea 5 was wrong? How could he then be included in the Canon of the Hebrew Bible, tell me?

 

[Lapell]

Regarding resurrection, you are right. There were Jews then and still many today who believe in resurrection. But for lack of Scriptural knowledge. Resurrection of dead people in Christian terms serve only to create contradictions for the Tanach, which says a lot against it. You can check these passages: Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezek. 26:20. I have ommitted Ecclesiastes, which is famous against resurrection.

Ben:

According to the Gospel, the Sadducees didn’t believe there is a resurrection, but the Pharisees did. (All of them? Maybe, or maybe not. It’s not specified…) And Jesus’ answer to the Sadducees was that what proves there is a resurrection is what God says of Himself: “I am the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob.” “God is not the God of the dead but of the living!”

 

[Lapell]

I forgot to mention that God said this to Moses from the Burning Bush…

 

[Ben_Masada]

According to the Gospel, the Sadducees didn’t believe there is a resurrection, but the Pharisees did. (All of them? Maybe, or maybe not. It’s not specified…) And Jesus’ answer to the Sadducees was that what proves there is a resurrection is what God says of Himself: “I am the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob.” “God is not the God of the dead but of the living!”

The Prophet Isaiah calls the Land of Israel the Land of the living. (Isa. 53:8) Does it mean that all the lands in the rest of the world are lands of the dead? Obviously not. Ezekiel calls the lands throughout the world lands of graves for the Jews. Does it mean that the whole world is a cementery? Of course not! (Ezek. 37:12)

The same thing applies to the saying “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” It has nothing to do with God being a God of the dead or of the living. The triune, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the symbol for the stock of Israel. Therefore, the expression means simply the God of Israel. It means that Israel will never cease to exist and die because God is not a God of the dead but of the living. That’s in Jeremiah 31:35-37.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

At last I remembered to erase "

"!!!
Now with my question. So, not a chance that the Kingdom of Israel was exiled because their own sins cried out to God? Are you saying that Hosea 5 was wrong? How could he then be included in the Canon of the Hebrew Bible, tell me?

 

[Valke2]

This thread is going nowhere fast. Well, not that fast. It is taking a long time. As the Psalm says, Seek Peace and pursue it.

When pharoah hardened his heart, he also had God harden it for him. God told Moses that he was on Holy Ground and that pharoah would refuse him. And in Genesis Chapter 1 we see that God creates light before he creates the sun and stars.

So essentially you and Ben are saying the same thing and the result, much like this post, is general confusion.

 

[Ben_Masada]

And you don’t believe God will transform you and me and others so that we would be in Heaven together? You don’t believe He can do that? Isn’t He God Almighty?
And you don’t believe that God can grant someone true regret and the strength to turn away from his grave sins for good? Say, are you a Reform Jew?

Lapell, God does not transform anybody. That’s not His role. We are not robots. God has granted us freewill and He respects our freewill. We are the ones who should transform ourselves. If to love and serve God, God has to transform you and me, what are we, machines? We are the ones who should inspire each other into transformation so that we may be better persons. Since we left the Garden of Eden we are supposed to evolve and be more and more intependent of outside care. When will we realize that we are supposed to grow up?

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4921833:

Which leads to another question: why did the first human beings exist and live? Or why did the first creature in the universe exist? and the first planet, and the first star? the first thing or being ever created… ?
Yes?

Lapell, you have asked many questions. Can I ask you one? Just one. How old are you? Wait! Don’t tell me! Let me guess… 5? No more than 8 right? Do you want to get into Evolution? That is gonna be a thread of its own.

Ben:

 

[Lapell]

The Prophet Isaiah calls the Land of Israel the Land of the living. (Isa. 53:8) Does it mean that all the lands in the rest of the world are lands of the dead? Obviously not. Ezekiel calls the lands throughout the world lands of graves for the Jews. Does it mean that the whole world is a cementery? Of course not! (Ezek. 37:12)

The same thing applies to the saying “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” It has nothing to do with God being a God of the dead or of the living. The triune, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the symbol for the stock of Israel. Therefore, the expression means simply the God of Israel. It means that Israel will never cease to exist and die because God is not a God of the dead but of the living. That’s in Jeremiah 31:35-37.

Ben:

So you dismiss any specific reflexion about “the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob”, as to why did God say that thing and specifically THAT way? Have you never taken a look at this one thing specifically?

 

[Lapell]

This thread is going nowhere fast. Well, not that fast. It is taking a long time. As the Psalm says, Seek Peace and pursue it.

When pharoah hardened his heart, he also had God harden it for him. God told Moses that he was on Holy Ground and that pharoah would refuse him. And in Genesis Chapter 1 we see that God creates light before he creates the sun and stars.

So essentially you and Ben are saying the same thing and the result, much like this post, is general confusion.

What “same” thing are we saying, Ben Masada and I? Can you tell me? I don’t see that we are, really!

 

[Lapell]

Were I dealing with you, Valke2, it would be a different thing, for you haven’t left me the same uneasy impression which I receive from Ben!

 

[Lapell]

Lapell, God does not transform anybody. That’s not His role. We are not robots. God has granted us freewill and He respects our freewill. We are the ones who should transform ourselves. If to love and serve God, God has to transform you and me, what are we, machines? We are the ones who should inspire each other into transformation so that we may be better persons. Since we left the Garden of Eden we are supposed to evolve and be more and more intependent of outside care. When will we realize that we are supposed to grow up?

Ben:

I never said that He would do that without our willingness to let Him, Ben. In fact, it’s a necessary condition! But haven’t you ever been ashamed of something bad you did some day and made amends afterwards? I have. Why would the prophets ask us in the Name of God to turn away from our bad ways and sins and turn ourselves to God and His ways then if there’d be no way this could be achieved?