Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David

[Lapell]

Lapell;4922666:

Lapell, you have asked many questions. Can I ask you one? Just one. How old are you? Wait! Don’t tell me! Let me guess… 5? No more than 8 right? Do you want to get into Evolution? That is gonna be a thread of its own.

Ben:

If you think I am 5 or 8, well, i’m delighted for the Kingdom of God is for those who receive it as children do! And children do ask questions? Have you already stopped asking any? Don’t you have within you a sense of awe and wonder? You seem to have given up in that very area, Ben. You mentioned something about my possibly being afraid of the Truth… frankly, you seem even more afraid of it yourself than I am!!
You did not answer this one question: Are you a Rabbi? This one is simpler than my other questions, it seems to me…

 

[Lapell]

Lapell;4922666:

Do you want to get into Evolution?

What does this have to do with the “many” questions that I’ve asked? And what do YOU want to get into, yourself?

 

[Valke2]

Were I dealing with you, Valke2, it would be a different thing, for you haven’t left me the same uneasy impression which I receive from Ben!

I know. I was just making a joke. I find this thread very confusing so I thought I would make a confusing post.

 

[Lapell]

Ben, you may not have liked my posts, but I assure you that yours asked for the kind I sent you,
You still haven’t answered to the one about your saying that the Wedding at Cana was Jesus’ and Mary Magdalen’s when John 2 is clear that Jesus and his disciples were “invited” there? This one question bugs me really, really much!

 

[Lapell]

To our Jewish friends, happy Purim celebrations… hope I am not too late?

 

[Lapell]

I know. I was just making a joke. I find this thread very confusing so I thought I would make a confusing post.

I am afraid this thread was designed to become rather “confusing”. I was not the one who started it, if you remember well…

 

[Lapell]

Shalom aleichem to all! And God bless you and keep you no matter where you are and where you go. Take good care, everyone…

 

[jlhargus]

Hisalone;4886683:

Nine Reasons Why Isaiah 53 Refers to the Messiah - Not the Jewish People

Isaiah was from Tecoa in Judah. So, “my people” here is Judah. And the Servant is Israel, who was put to death for the sins of Judah, according to the thread.

Since the Servant Israel did not die for his sins but for the sins of Judah. It’s only obvious that he died innocent of the sins he died for.

JL: If the Servant Israel had SINS, that would be an unclean offering, which is not an acceptalbe sacrifice to God.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, you may not have liked my posts, but I assure you that yours asked for the kind I sent you,
You still haven’t answered to the one about your saying that the Wedding at Cana was Jesus’ and Mary Magdalen’s when John 2 is clear that Jesus and his disciples were “invited” there? This one question bugs me really, really much!

I have answered and perhaps more than several times. But there is no problem, here’s once more: The word to be invited and to be called are almost similar in Biblical language. Only in the practice one is able to realize the distinction between one and the other. The editor or translator perhaps did not bother to observe that nuance and used the same word for everyone.

The disciples were invited. Jesus, in the course of the celebration was at the appropriate time “called” to take his Bride. That’s a ceremonial procedure considered a commandment for the Groom to take from the father of the Bride the responsibility over her, who starts to belong fron then on to another man.

I was married here in Israel with a very traditional daughter of a Yemenite Rabbi and went through all these things I am telling you about. I am almost sure that I enjoy a little more credibility than if you were listening to a non-Jewish person who only reads about them.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4887573:

JL: If the Servant Israel had SINS, that would be an unclean offering, which is not an acceptalbe sacrifice to God.

Israel was clean of the sins he died for. Those sins were the sins of Judah. When the Court decides on the method of death over a criminal, let’s say, stoning,
and select a group of people to perform the stoning, it doesn’t matter how sinful is everyone in the group. The execution is based on the crimes of the condemned to death and not on the sins of the executioners.

The death of Israel was not based on his personal sins but on the sins of Judah. Israel was on the role of scapegoat. The concept of unclean offering is too symbolical. The individual sins of a person mean nothing in the “eyes” of God.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4923304:

If you think I am 5 or 8, well, i’m delighted for the Kingdom of God is for those who receive it as children do! And children do ask questions? Have you already stopped asking any? Don’t you have within you a sense of awe and wonder? You seem to have given up in that very area, Ben. You mentioned something about my possibly being afraid of the Truth… frankly, you seem even more afraid of it yourself than I am!!
You did not answer this one question: Are you a Rabbi? This one is simpler than my other questions, it seems to me…

Yes, this question is simpler than stacked domino questions. No, Lapell,
I am not a Rabbi, although I was married for 14 years to a Rabbi’s daughter.

Now, regarding being afraid of the Truth, could you give me a definition of the Truth? If you can’t, let me know and I’ll give it a shot my way.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

So you dismiss any specific reflexion about “the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob”, as to why did God say that thing and specifically THAT way? Have you never taken a look at this one thing specifically?

Yes Lapell, I have taken even more than a look at this expression specifically. The point is that while you work on the letter, I work on the meaning of the letter. While you go for the things that keep you alive, I go for the things I live for. That’s the difference between us.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

I never said that He would do that without our willingness to let Him, Ben. In fact, it’s a necessary condition! But haven’t you ever been ashamed of something bad you did some day and made amends afterwards? I have. Why would the prophets ask us in the Name of God to turn away from our bad ways and sins and turn ourselves to God and His ways then if there’d be no way this could be achieved?

God does not do that whether you allow Him or not. The urge to do that
must originate in our own freewill and disposition. This of being ashamed of a wrongdoing
is part of being what you are and not of being transformed to be. Yet, everything is up to us
to act or react the way we please, as long as we are aware of the consequences.

Ben:

 

[Valke2]

jlhargus;4923909:

Israel was clean of the sins he died for. Those sins were the sins of Judah. When the Court decides on the method of death over a criminal, let’s say, stoning,
and select a group of people to perform the stoning, it doesn’t matter how sinful is everyone in the group. The execution is based on the crimes of the condemned to death and not on the sins of the executioners.

The death of Israel was not based on his personal sins but on the sins of Judah. Israel was on the role of scapegoat. The concept of unclean offering is too symbolical. The individual sins of a person mean nothing in the “eyes” of God.

Ben:

I’m not really replying to your post specifically but just to make a general comment on Israel being “clean” enough for sacrifice. There’s nothing in Judaism that says a sacrifice needs to be free from sins. Because sacrifices were animals. “Cleanliness” is not an issue that relates to moral or ethical behavior when applied to food or sacrifices in judaism, as I am sure we all knowl

 

[Valke2]

Can I ask both of you to please state in a paragraph or so your position on the messiah ben joseph and ben david? I would really like to understand this debate.

 

[Lapell]

I have answered and perhaps more than several times. But there is no problem, here’s once more: The word to be invited and to be called are almost similar in Biblical language. Only in the practice one is able to realize the distinction between one and the other. The editor or translator perhaps did not bother to observe that nuance and used the same word for everyone.

The disciples were invited. Jesus, in the course of the celebration was at the appropriate time “called” to take his Bride. That’s a ceremonial procedure considered a commandment for the Groom to take from the father of the Bride the responsibility over her, who starts to belong fron then on to another man.

I was married here in Israel with a very traditional daughter of a Yemenite Rabbi and went through all these things I am telling you about. I am almost sure that I enjoy a little more credibility than if you were listening to a non-Jewish person who only reads about them.

Ben:

When did you previously answer it? (Which post number?)
I wonder why you downsize the writer’s words. Are you going to tell me the Hebrew word for “invite” is the same as “call”? Moreover, the text clearly states that Jesus AND his disciples were invited.
You might say whatever you want, I guess, to bend the text to your theories, and I suppose that whether it was meant or not by the author isn’t important to you. I expect that Jews would comment on their sacred texts. How come you are commenting John 2 which is not even a part of the Hebrew Bible nor even the Septuagint? As for the author who was writing fluently in Greek (with some hebraisms, I concede)— The Jews in diaspora were living then in an environment where the common language was Greek, so I doubt they would have been confusing to that extent. Not the Jews, no! I find that they have a way of expressing things rather clearly, using concrete words…
And so, I doubt very much that John, who was born a Jew, would be so unlike the rest of the Jews when it comes to the use of the language.
At any rate, commentaries have been made by the Fathers of the Church, and to my knowledge, none said anything to the effect that the wedding would have been Jesus’ and Mary Magdalen’s. I believe you don’t mind putting some false things, even lies, in your own arguments. If the lies are not yours, forgive me. But you based your argument on false information at best. This I am sure.

 

[Lapell]

I’m not really replying to your post specifically but just to make a general comment on Israel being “clean” enough for sacrifice. There’s nothing in Judaism that says a sacrifice needs to be free from sins. Because sacrifices were animals. “Cleanliness” is not an issue that relates to moral or ethical behavior when applied to food or sacrifices in judaism, as I am sure we all knowl

Well, when it came to animal sacrifices, were the animal not required to be without blemish? In the case of Israel (Ephraim), their being with sins meant that there were NOT without blemish, there. Moreover, I thought that to Jews human sacrifices (slaying humans for the sins of another) is considered to be unacceptable to God.
Hence I can’t buy Ben’s theory that the ten tribes of Israel were “sacrificed” for the sins of Judah. Their own pile of unrepented sins was enough to call for God’s letting them be exiled, at least from the texts of the Old Testament.

 

[Lapell]

Can I ask both of you to please state in a paragraph or so your position on the messiah ben joseph and ben david? I would really like to understand this debate.

Sorry to have been so off-topic for a while, Valke2. I hope my previous post just answered your question…

 

[Lapell]

God does not do that whether you allow Him or not. The urge to do that
must originate in our own freewill and disposition. This of being ashamed of a wrongdoing
is part of being what you are and not of being transformed to be. Yet, everything is up to us
to act or react the way we please, as long as we are aware of the consequences.

Ben:

Yet, these pangs of conscience, when we yield to them, make us reflect and then recognize our wrongs and making step to either correct the wrong or at least offer reparation and turn away from what in us made us do the wrong, don’t they?
Why do you seem to not want at all to owe any thing whatsoever to God, not even those pangs of conscience?

 

[Lapell]

Which makes me believe that you are probably not a rabbi…