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Kaninchen
Guest
I always find ‘allegedly’ works rather well when it comes to questions of NT interpretation.
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johnsteinson
Guest
Nah…I always find ‘allegedly’ works rather well when it comes to questions of NT interpretation.
Better to make a claim and jump into the pool of controversy with both feet!
[SIGN]This is an alleged sign[/SIGN]
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Kaninchen
Guest
Ah, I suppose I do have the advantage of being Jewish and thus having an overt ‘I don’t believe a word of it’ starting point!
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johnsteinson
Guest
If that was a universal truth…thenAh, I suppose I do have the advantage of being Jewish and thus having an overt ‘I don’t believe a word of it’ starting point!
If I was Jewish I would say that I don’t believe a word of what you just said.
But if I thought you were lying, that would mean I thought you did believe a word of it.
But you wouldn’t believe me if I told you I didn’t believe you.
But when 2 people…then my head exploded.
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Kaninchen
Guest
A man who demands precision, I see.If that was a universal truth…then
If I was Jewish I would say that I don’t believe a word of what you just said.
But if I thought you were lying, that would mean I thought you did believe a word of it.
But you wouldn’t believe me if I told you I didn’t believe you.
But when 2 people…then my head exploded.
Ok, I’ll amend my statement:
“Ah, I suppose I do have the advantage of being Jewish and thus having an overt ‘New Testament, I don’t believe a word of it’ starting point!”
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johnsteinson
Guest
Old Testament, I do believe a word of it ending point.
[SIGN]The mirror image of a negative advantage [/SIGN]
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Karen107
Guest
Dear Johnstein. Rather than me going back point to point on those posts I want to say this straight out. You’re looking into the scriptures and making them conform to what you believe rather than what they are really saying so you have to let your ideas go in order to understand what people are telling you. Step back and look at the grander picture because you’re missing out in seeing the big point we’re making here. Jesus is our Messiah and King who rules the world and is in our midst. He has already redeemed Isreal by the shedding of His blood. Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection… Yes Jesus will return but not just for Isreal but for ALL of us at the second coming of Our Lord. I know there is a lot said about Jesus coming to redeem Isreal but you gotta believe this, Jesus will return for the body of Christ which will include the chosen ones of Isreal. Not the nation of Isreal but the chosen people of Isreal who were saved in the first resurrection of Jesus. So all the Kings and the Prophets who were beholden to God like Moses or Elijah.
What you are doing is saying that there is another Messiah other than our Lord and that’s not in keeping with your Christian faith. The Messiah King ‘Jesus’ has already came to redeem ALL of the world and this will be the resurrection of the body on the last day. There is NO other Messiah! The 12 tribes of Isreal either did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah or they did and became Christian like St. Peter did. First the Jews and then the gentiles were added into the number to form the Church…Romans 1:16
John 3:16 For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus IS the fulfillment of the scriptures so now the Church is the new Isreal… A nation of holy priesthood… Now this is St. Peter who was originally a Jew saying to the disciples of Christ. 1 Peter 2:19 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
The Law and the Prophets
Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Peace+++
What you are doing is saying that there is another Messiah other than our Lord and that’s not in keeping with your Christian faith. The Messiah King ‘Jesus’ has already came to redeem ALL of the world and this will be the resurrection of the body on the last day. There is NO other Messiah! The 12 tribes of Isreal either did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah or they did and became Christian like St. Peter did. First the Jews and then the gentiles were added into the number to form the Church…Romans 1:16
John 3:16 For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus IS the fulfillment of the scriptures so now the Church is the new Isreal… A nation of holy priesthood… Now this is St. Peter who was originally a Jew saying to the disciples of Christ. 1 Peter 2:19 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
The Law and the Prophets
Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Peace+++
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ericc
Guest
Despite his sufferings, he was praising God.
Psalm 22 calls out to God, presents the suffering of the speaker, talks of enemies and ends in praise. It falls into two parts: verses 1-21 (lament) and verses 22-31 (praise).
He was not in despair. He knew and foretold his death a number of times. Mt 16:21, Mt 17:23, Mt 20:18.
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Karen107
Guest
Dear Johnstein maybe it would also help for you to remember that the Word (Jesus) has always been with us.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is a messenger of God. He didn’t just come to our world in Bethlehem as a newborn, He has always been with us as the Word of God and always will be with us revealing God the Father to us. But we have to pray to hear that Word.
God works through us. Even though we do not see God, God makes a dwelling within us and will be with us always.
Here it says in Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
and prophesy fulfilled written in the Gospels.
Matthew 1:23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
Another prophecy fulfilled.
Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; …
Matthew 3:17 And see a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom
1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."
And so when we come forward to receive Jesus at the mass we must be In the Spirit to experience the beauty of this Sacrament that God has given us.
Peace out+++
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is a messenger of God. He didn’t just come to our world in Bethlehem as a newborn, He has always been with us as the Word of God and always will be with us revealing God the Father to us. But we have to pray to hear that Word.
God works through us. Even though we do not see God, God makes a dwelling within us and will be with us always.
Here it says in Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
and prophesy fulfilled written in the Gospels.
Matthew 1:23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
Another prophecy fulfilled.
Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; …
Matthew 3:17 And see a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom
1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."
And so when we come forward to receive Jesus at the mass we must be In the Spirit to experience the beauty of this Sacrament that God has given us.
Peace out+++
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Karen107
Guest
You do believe? I was just wondering, are you a baptized Christian? It says on your status that you are an 'Independent God believer" . Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and become baptized?
What I also wanted to say is the point I was making before. Jesus Spoke through the Prophets of the OT. That’s what it tells us in Hebrews 1:1-2 and John 1:1…In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus was there with Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Isaiah and all of the prophets speaking Gods voice which was the voice of Jesus, the Word of God…Jesus cannot be separated from the Father or the Spirit because Jesus is one with God the Father in the Spirit of Our Lord.
We also know from that that Jesus IS God, the second person of the Holy Trinity. God being spirit, we can be in communion with God through Jesus Christ His Son Our Lord by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit through our Baptism which also helps us know more about God. Acts 2:38
Peace…
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Except that the cumulative case - taking in all the circumstances surrounding Jesus’ life and death - could not have been contrived by Jesus - if he were merely human - to fit so closely with those depicted in the Psalms, Ezekial, Isaiah and Daniel (among others). Either some power with the capacity to control history and the events in Jesus’ life were behind them, or the Gospel accounts were contrived.
Assuming the existence of the omnipotent, omniscient God, I see far less reason to think the accounts were contrived than for Jesus to have been and, indeed, IS who he claimed, ergo it is reasonable to conclude Jesus is/was who he claimed to be.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Why assume he was actually speaking to God and not (merely) making an indirect reference to Psalm 22 for the benefit of those familiar with the Psalms who would then begin to put together all the OT references to the Messiah and see more clearly to Whom they were pointing?
A significant clue towards solving the mystery on the lips of the murdered man using his last breath, so to speak?
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johnsteinson
Guest
My brief history:
Atheist–>found God—>became Catholic---->Studied the OT----->Realized I should have studied the OT first---->became Independent God Believer (IGB).
I do question the necessity of Jesus. The OT says you can be a righteous person by way of prayer, changing your life, etc.
Hope this helps.
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johnsteinson
Guest
Your scenario sounds a bit dramatic. I’m a simple man and simple answers work best. The OT has it all, no need to add more to it.
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Karen107
Guest
You’ve only paid attention to part of the bible and you don’t even call yourself a Jew. Please now re read the Gospels which are the good news of Christ who says John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus the great “I am” says:
John 14:6 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Now this is my hope that you will believe in the gospels for they are life giving. Mark 1:15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
Galatians 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law.
The bible says Jesus is the way to the Father, if you don’t believe that you are denying Jesus.
Matthew 10:33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Sir you can’t disown Jesus and then expect to be saved, we cannot be fully righteous on our own merit so we need the mercy of God from the cross and God wants us not only to be good but to be holy so we can be with Him in heaven! This is only done through Jesus Our Savior… please repent and believe in the good news because it is that Important for your salvation!!
Christ be the Lord! Amen
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Karen107
Guest
Yes there is! The OT are for the Jews to try and gather them into one people, but they are scattered till this day. The OT covenants were not meant for everyone but the Isrealites and to increase holiness through the law and sin offerings… God did not make a covenant with everyone in the OT, He made it for the Jews in the OT. The new and Eternal covenant was made for us the gentiles by the blood of the Lamb Jesus…
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johnsteinson
Guest
It’s my view that the creators of the NT believed in Jesus. And I do think they took liberties with the prophecies of the OT. One example is Isaiah 7:14. Matthew takes this particular story totally out of its context and applies it to the virgin birth and sees it as a prophetic utterance, as a prediction of what is going to happen.
We all have our ways of looking at things.
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Karen107
Guest
The problem is, not everyone is right especially if it is one’s own opinions, and can stray from the flock with devastating results.
In the old testament
Jeremiah 23:1"Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!" declares the LORD.
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johnsteinson
Guest
Jeremiah talking to the kings of Judah. Don’t know what this has to do with Jesus, though.
I will admit that I’ve been wrong on occasions throughout my life.
But…if I want to know what God thinks, then I’ll read it…
Like in Exodus - Chapter 20
4. "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
5. “You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God…”
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johnsteinson
Guest
I don’t think you read a word I’ve written in that 3 part posts. For if you had, you would have seen that…
It was Israel that was despised and hated. And God is saying that it is Israel that will rise in the messianic age and it will shock the world.
ISAIAH 60:14-15
14 The sons of them that afflicted you shall come bending unto you, and they that despised you shall bow themselves at the soles of your feet, and they shall call you the city of the Lord, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 15 Whereas you have been forsaken and despised with no passerby, I will make you an everlasting pride, the joy of every generation.
At the time of the messianic age, nations will be startled and kings shall shut their mouths. Why? Because Israel (the Jewish people) will have risen.
ISAIAH 49:23
Kings will be your foster fathers and queens your nursing mothers. With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you and lick the dust of your feet; and you shall know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
ISAIAH 60:1-3
1 Arise, shine; for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you. 2 For behold, darkness will cover the earth, and deep darkness the peoples, but the Lord will rise upon you, and His glory will appear upon you. 3 And nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.
ISAIAH 62:2-3
2 And the nations will see your righteousness and all the kings your glory, and you will be called by a new name which the mouth of the Lord will designate. 3 You will also be a crown of beauty in the hand of the Lord and a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
You don’t want part of that? I want part of that!
Why does anyone need Jesus if God said it all already?
Why does anyone need anything more than God?
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