Messiah of the OT and NT

[Karen107]

Jeremiah talking to the kings of Judah. Don’t know what this has to do with Jesus, though.
I will admit that I’ve been wrong on occasions throughout my life.
But…if I want to know what God thinks, then I’ll read it…

Like in Exodus - Chapter 20
4. "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
5. “You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God…”

St Paul further speaks of idolatry which is something we are supposed to learn from the OT and the law…

1 Corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols. 15 I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.

Colossians 3: 5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

How did St. Paul know this? Because he learned from the Master, Jesus… He was very knowledgeable about Judiasm, yet became Christian because He saw the truth of the resurrection and couldn’t deny Jesus.d The Hebrews were making idols out of gold, yet people today make idols out of money, pleasures, new cars and even themselves (ego). This is in violation of the first commandment God gave us to love the Lord Our God and do not put other gods before him.

I suspect you speak from the letter of the law of the OT about graven images because you think we do that, (so I sense you are a JW or something like that). But we don’t do that we worship our Lord Jesus… facing our Lord on the cross while we do that because that was the ultimate gift of sacrifice for our salvation. .You find that wrong? Well we are supposed to do everything for the glory of God, including keeping our eyes fixed on our uphill goal which is heaven. If that means venerate the saints and angels in heaven in order to put us in the spirit of heaven that’s what we do. We don’t worship the statue, we worship Jesus. IF you saw a baseball card of a player, you are thinking of that man, you are not thinking of the card itself are you?

Well mind you I believe you are idolizing yourself, which is a sin, because you don’t worship Jesus, you keep your mind fixed on the OT and not the good news of Jesus Christ.

Luke 12:34
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[johnsteinson]

St Paul further speaks of idolatry which is something we are supposed to learn from the OT and the law…

1 Corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols. 15 I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.

Colossians 3: 5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

How did St. Paul know this? Because he learned from the Master, Jesus… He was very knowledgeable about Judiasm, yet became Christian because He saw the truth of the resurrection and couldn’t deny Jesus.d The Hebrews were making idols out of gold, yet people today make idols out of money, pleasures, new cars and even themselves (ego). This is in violation of the first commandment God gave us to love the Lord Our God and do not put other gods before him.

I suspect you speak from the letter of the law of the OT about graven images because you think we do that, (so I sense you are a JW or something like that). But we don’t do that we worship our Lord Jesus… facing our Lord on the cross while we do that because that was the ultimate gift of sacrifice for our salvation. .You find that wrong? Well we are supposed to do everything for the glory of God, including keeping our eyes fixed on our uphill goal which is heaven. If that means venerate the saints and angels in heaven in order to put us in the spirit of heaven that’s what we do. We don’t worship the statue, we worship Jesus. IF you saw a baseball card of a player, you are thinking of that man, you are not thinking of the card itself are you?

Well mind you I believe you are idolizing yourself, which is a sin, because you don’t worship Jesus, you keep your mind fixed on the OT and not the good news of Jesus Christ.

I do believe that the JWs accept Jesus.
Idolize: to worship as a god; broadly : to love or admire to excess
Guess I’m guilty of worshiping God too much. Go figure.

Don’t need to worship Jesus if I can worship God. Not really a hard concept to follow.

 

[johnsteinson]

Karen, why did God say that all the kings and nations will bow down to the feet of Israel, the Jewish people, when the Messiah arrives?

St Paul further speaks of idolatry which is something we are supposed to learn from the OT and the law…

1 Corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols. 15 I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.

Colossians 3: 5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

How did St. Paul know this? Because he learned from the Master, Jesus… He was very knowledgeable about Judiasm, yet became Christian because He saw the truth of the resurrection and couldn’t deny Jesus.d The Hebrews were making idols out of gold, yet people today make idols out of money, pleasures, new cars and even themselves (ego). This is in violation of the first commandment God gave us to love the Lord Our God and do not put other gods before him.

I suspect you speak from the letter of the law of the OT about graven images because you think we do that, (so I sense you are a JW or something like that). But we don’t do that we worship our Lord Jesus… facing our Lord on the cross while we do that because that was the ultimate gift of sacrifice for our salvation. .You find that wrong? Well we are supposed to do everything for the glory of God, including keeping our eyes fixed on our uphill goal which is heaven. If that means venerate the saints and angels in heaven in order to put us in the spirit of heaven that’s what we do. We don’t worship the statue, we worship Jesus. IF you saw a baseball card of a player, you are thinking of that man, you are not thinking of the card itself are you?

Well mind you I believe you are idolizing yourself, which is a sin, because you don’t worship Jesus, you keep your mind fixed on the OT and not the good news of Jesus Christ.

Luke 12:34
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[Karen107]

St Paul further speaks of idolatry which is something we are supposed to learn from the OT and the law…

1 Corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols. 15 I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.

Colossians 3: 5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

How did St. Paul know this? Because he learned from the Master, Jesus… He was very knowledgeable about Judiasm, yet became Christian because He saw the truth of the resurrection and couldn’t deny Jesus.d The Hebrews were making idols out of gold, yet people today make idols out of money, pleasures, new cars and even themselves (ego). This is in violation of the first commandment God gave us to love the Lord Our God and do not put other gods before him.

I suspect you speak from the letter of the law of the OT about graven images because you think we do that, (so I sense you are a JW or something like that). But we don’t do that we worship our Lord Jesus… facing our Lord on the cross while we do that because that was the ultimate gift of sacrifice for our salvation. .You find that wrong? Well we are supposed to do everything for the glory of God, including keeping our eyes fixed on our uphill goal which is heaven. If that means venerate the saints and angels in heaven in order to put us in the spirit of heaven that’s what we do. We don’t worship the statue, we worship Jesus. IF you saw a baseball card of a player, you are thinking of that man, you are not thinking of the card itself are you?

Well mind you I believe you are idolizing yourself, which is a sin, because you don’t worship Jesus, you keep your mind fixed on the OT and not the good news of Jesus Christ.

Luke 12:34
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

reread it says we will bow down before our Lord. Because Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That means He’s ruler over all of Creation. One day we all will know that when we stand before Our Lord on the last day.

 

[Karen107]

I do believe that the JWs accept Jesus.
Idolize: to worship as

1. 
   
   a god; broadly : to love or admire to excess
   Guess I’m guilty of worshiping God too much. Go figure.
   
   Don’t need to worship Jesus if I can worship God. Not really a hard concept to follow.

1. 
   . Apparently you don’t believe Jesus is God or understand the Trinity. If Jesus was a mere man He would not be Our Savior. There then is err in your thinking.

 

[Karen107]

I do believe that the JWs accept Jesus.
Idolize: to worship as a god; broadly : to love or admire to excess
Guess I’m guilty of worshiping God too much. Go figure.

Don’t need to worship Jesus if I can worship God. Not really a hard concept to follow.

JW don’t believe Jesus is God either IMO because they focus too much on the OT and not enough on the new. Knowing our Lord Jesus is God will come to you by faith so keep asking questions and pray because to come to Love Jesus one must know Jesus… To know Him is to Love Him as the song says.

 

[johnsteinson]

JW don’t believe Jesus is God either because they focus too much on the OT and not enough on the new.

According to the JW website, they do believe in Jesus. Not so much like other Christians do, but they believe. Same for Islam. They accept Jesus, but not at the same level as Christians do.
jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/believe-in-jesus/

Knowing our Lord Jesus is God will come to you by faith so keep asking questions and pray because to come to Love Jesus one must know Jesus… To know Him is to Love Him as the song says.

This reminds me of a joke.
Q) Why did God create Mormons?
A) So that Christians can know how the Jews feel.

 

[johnsteinson]

. Apparently you don’t believe Jesus is God or understand the Trinity. If Jesus was a mere man He would not be Our Savior. There then is err in your thinking.

The NT needs the OT. If the NT doesn’t respect the OT, then the NT is a fraud. I’m reading the OT and I can see how the creators of the NT have tried to manipulate the OT. I’ve seen passages in Isaiah that clearly speak of God and Israel. There is enough evidence in the OT that I was forced to make a decision. Do I follow God or Jesus?
I’ve showed you those verses. I noticed you wouldn’t touch them with a 10ft pole.
You are so in love with Jesus that you can’t see God. This love has made you blind.
Sure, the shiney crosses and the not so tasty wafers makes you feel good. I was there once. You’re not telling me anything I haven’t told to someone else.

I’ve took the veil of blindness off my eyes and I asked “God, what are you saying?”
And I read God’s word. And it was good. It was God’s words as spoken by the Prophets. Not manipulated words uttered by desperate men seeking recruits.

Feel free to keep your love affair with these desperate men, but don’t dare ask me to forsake the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Don’t ask me to turn my back on the God of Israel. I will not.

 

[bisco1]

so, are you waiting for the messiah?

 

[johnsteinson]

so, are you waiting for the messiah?

I’m not waiting for anyone. Should this grand event occur while I’m still alive, then great. If not, oh well.

 

[Karen107]

The NT needs the OT. If the NT doesn’t respect the OT, then the NT is a fraud. I’m reading the OT and I can see how the creators of the NT have tried to manipulate the OT. I’ve seen passages in Isaiah that clearly speak of God and Israel. There is enough evidence in the OT that I was forced to make a decision. Do I follow God or Jesus?

Actually, the OT needs the NT because there can be no eternal life for the Jew unless there is a Messiah. The Messiah is Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of the scriptures. There is no manipulation. The NT was the work of the Catholic Church, started in 33 AD when Jesus gave the command to Peter to build His Church. Now think about this. Since the NT was the work of the Catholic Church and if what you believe is true, (that the OT is true and the NT is a lie) wouldn’t it make sense that the OT would be left out of the bible? However, we know that it wasn’t because the NT completes the bible because… Jesus is the Messiah… The long awaited "anointed one’ to which God the Father was well pleased about yet you are not pleased with Jesus. Jesus and God can be one because God is spirit… The trinity is a mystery, yet many things of God are mysteries and so we need faith to understand and go deeper into these mysteries. Jesus reveals the Father… That is another mystery but I can sum it up by saying if you want to know the Father, know the Son. The Son leads us to the Father because the Son is the Way to the Father. See it is a mystery of our faith. Faith and hope we will need in this life which allows us to experience Gods love, not only in this life but in the next when Gods love is fully experienced by us… But the way to there is through Jesus Christ His Son, the Messiah…

I’ve showed you those verses. I noticed you wouldn’t touch them with a 10ft pole.
You are so in love with Jesus that you can’t see God. This love has made you blind.
Sure, the shiney crosses and the not so tasty wafers makes you feel good. I was there once. You’re not telling me anything I haven’t told to someone else.

I’ve took the veil of blindness off my eyes and I asked “God, what are you saying?”
And I read God’s word. And it was good. It was God’s words as spoken by the Prophets. Not manipulated words uttered by desperate men seeking recruits.

Feel free to keep your love affair with these desperate men, but don’t dare ask me to forsake the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Don’t ask me to turn my back on the God of Israel. I will not.

I love God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit… All one God.

Read this scripture it may help…

Jesus’ Equality with God
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jesus gives us life and life more abundantly. Read John 6 about the Eucharist. If you believe Jesus is God than you know that Jesus Words have power… Jesus is the Bread of life, Jesus is the Resurrection… Jesus said these things and Jesus has power through His words because it has been placed in His hands by the Father… Do you believe in the miracles that Jesus did while he walked on earth? Many did and became Christians because they knew Jesus is God… Remember, those who deny Jesus before others, will be denied before the Father by Jesus, Our Savior.

 

[johnsteinson]

Actually, the OT needs the NT because there can be no eternal life for the Jew unless there is a Messiah. The Messiah is Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of the scriptures. There is no manipulation. The NT was the work of the Catholic Church, started in 33 AD when Jesus gave the command to Peter to build His Church. Now think about this. Since the NT was the work of the Catholic Church and if what you believe is true, (that the OT is true and the NT is a lie) wouldn’t it make sense that the OT would be left out of the bible? However, we know that it wasn’t because the NT completes the bible because… Jesus is the Messiah…

A bunch of desperate men needed to piggyback off of the OT and use their prophecies to bamboozle the Jews. At some point the Jews told them to bug off. It got so bad Paul had to go to the world of pagans and peddle his wares.

By the way, still waiting on that promise of world peace that the messiah was suppose to bring with him.

 

[Karen107]

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. .

Johnstein? The greater works then these has happened. Look at what the Father has done in our world in Christianity. The Church itself has grown to 1.2 billion people, Mexico alone grew 9 million in a short period due to the apparition of Mary to Juan Diego not to mention how many Christians there are as a whole. This is not something to sneeze at, this is Gods doing through Jesus Christ His Son and that is something to marvel at. The bread of life gives life to those who receive it, its too bad you’ve walked away like those who didn’t believe Jesus at the Last Supper.

 

[Karen107]

A bunch of desperate men needed to piggyback off of the OT and use their prophecies to bamboozle the Jews. At some point the Jews told them to bug off. It got so bad Paul had to go to the world of pagans and peddle his wares.

By the way, still waiting on that promise of world peace that the messiah was suppose to bring with him.

Jesus did bring peace… He brought the Jews and the gentiles together to start the Church… Jesus brings peace when a person has the Holy Spirit in them… given to them through their baptism.

Paul had to go to the world of pagans to peddle his wares? That doesn’t even make sense. Paul was the biggest evangelizer of the Christians of all the early Christians. He wrote 2/3 of the NT and even died for the faith. Boy what is in your mind? You do appear to be like a JW. They call God Jehovah and by no other name and do not believe Christ is God either. They don’t baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded, so therefore are not followers of Christ. A person has to follow Christ to be His disciple.

 

[johnsteinson]

Johnstein? The greater works then these has happened. Look at what the Father has done in our world in Christianity. The Church itself has grown to 1.2 billion people, Mexico alone grew 9 million in a short period due to the apparition of Mary to Juan Diego not to mention how many Christians there are as a whole. This is not something to sneeze at, this is Gods doing through Jesus Christ His Son and that is something to marvel at. The bread of life gives life to those who receive it, its too bad you’ve walked away like those who didn’t believe Jesus at the Last Supper.

Karen69?

And how many people did the Christians have to kill to meet their recruitment goals?
Same thing for the Moslems…how many did they have to kill to meet their recruitment goals?
I mean, there has to be about a billion Moslems, right?

By the way, still waiting on that promise of world peace that the messiah was suppose to bring with him.

 

[johnsteinson]

Jesus did bring peace… He brought the Jews and the gentiles together to start the Church… Jesus brings peace when a person has the Holy Spirit in them… given to them through their baptism.

You’re not even trying now.

Paul had to go to the world of pagans to peddle his wares? That doesn’t even make sense.

At least he left the Jews alone. Let him go annoy those that pray to trees and bugs and the sun.

Paul was the biggest evangelizer of the Christians of all the early Christians. He wrote 2/3 of the NT and even died for the faith. Boy what is in your mind? You do appear to be like a JW. They call God Jehovah and by no other name and do not believe Christ is God either. They don’t baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded, so therefore are not followers of Christ. A person has to follow Christ to be His disciple.

Girl, I don’t care if Paul wrote the words to “The Cat in the Hat.”

Now, go on and serve me up a slice of that world peace your other boy was suppose to bring with him. Sheesh. He can’t even get that part of the prophecy right and I’m expected to call him Lord. Not even in your best days.

 

[Karen107]

Karen69?

And how many people did the Christians have to kill to meet their recruitment goals?
Same thing for the Moslems…how many did they have to kill to meet their recruitment goals?
I mean, there has to be about a billion Moslems, right?

By the way, still waiting on that promise of world peace that the messiah was suppose to bring with him.

The old testament says there’s a time for peace and a time for war… Look it up… Have you ever asked yourself how many Christians have died for their faith?

I’m not speaking for the Muslims, but just look at the reasons why throughout history even up to today people (Christians) would have clashed with Muslims. by the way, the Muslim belief is a deviation from Christianity. Look at the History of the Quaran which came into being long after the bible. They, like you, don’t believe that Jesus is Savior, Messiah, God…

 

[Karen107]

I will talk about my faith but I won’t stay here to take insults or have my beliefs ridiculed. Find someone else to play that game.

 

[johnsteinson]

The old testament says there’s a time for peace and a time for war… Look it up… Have you ever asked yourself how many Christians have died for their faith?

A. I only care about the number of people killed by Christians for their faith.
B. There is suppose to be world peace when the messiah showed up. He’s come and gone and still no world peace.

Who do you think you’re kidding.

 

[Peter_Plato]

It’s my view that the creators of the NT believed in Jesus. And I do think they took liberties with the prophecies of the OT. One example is Isaiah 7:14. Matthew takes this particular story totally out of its context and applies it to the virgin birth and sees it as a prophetic utterance, as a prediction of what is going to happen.

We all have our ways of looking at things.

It really has less to do with our way of looking at things than it has with God’s way of intending things. If you think it is up to your way of looking, then that limits whatever you are looking at to your limitations as looker.

God doesn’t merely intend us to be righteous men, he intends us to share in his divine life with him. Those are two quite distinct projects. The first simply means you being the best that is humanly possible, the second requires God transforming you. That divine transformation is not spelled out anywhere in the OT.

In any case, the creators of the New Testament didn’t take liberties with the OT. There is a strong case to be made that they were reliable and trustworthy transmitters of the words and deeds of Jesus.

The undesigned coincidences in the New Testament make a strong cumulative case, as do scholars such as Richard Bauckham and the Early Church Fathers.

fbckenner.org/audio/jan2011/010911A%20.mp3