Messianic Jews Vs Catholics

  • Thread starter Thread starter Steven_John
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Steven_John

Guest
Hi everyone,
I would like to know about the commonality and differences between the two in regards to belief.
 
We Catholics are are 100% Messianic Jews. Simple Logic; Jesus was a Jew, Jesus was the Messiah, Jesus founded the Catholic Church. It seems that even the most simple among us can see that Catholics are Messianic Jews:thumbsup:
 
Well put Mike,
I am not big on who is what religion as you could guess by my profession here, labels dont give life or faith Our Father does through the spirit.

But i was looking for comparison to the organised groups that call themselves Messianic s and Catholics

Bless ya pray well and stay well
 
Mike_Dye said:
We Catholics are are 100% Messianic Jews. Simple Logic; Jesus was a Jew, Jesus was the Messiah, Jesus founded the Catholic Church. It seems that even the most simple among us can see that Catholics are Messianic Jews:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:

The real answer to his question:
Messianic Jews are people of Jewish heritage who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Some of those are also Roman-Catholics, but others belong to some of the other churches, and some (probably most) have founded Messianic congregations.
 
from a Jewish point of view, were there any more Prophets after the time of Jesus?
 
choy said:
from a Jewish point of view, were there any more Prophets after the time of Jesus?
Click to expand...
I heard a Rabbi discourse on prophetic speach. He seemed to say that are people who are prophets by nature, and that those kinds of people do not have to finish what they have tell by saying “thus sayeth the Lord”. What a prophet says is prophecy, in fact he said that most everything said by prophetic souls tends to be somehow prophetic.

Someone, it may have been this Rabbi, said that there used to be schools that helped to develop prophets.
 
LutheranDK said:
:rolleyes:

The real answer to his question:
Messianic Jews are people of Jewish heritage who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Some of those are also Roman-Catholics, but others belong to some of the other churches, and some (probably most) have founded Messianic congregations.
Click to expand...
Great answer - I fully concur. Messianic Jews who are Catholics are sometimes referred to as “Hebrew Catholics”.

I’m a Jewish believer - and thus some would call me a “messianic jew”. But “messianic jews” come in many flavors 🙂

Torah obersvant messianic jews (who believe the mosaic law continues - not for justification, but for sanctification)

Non-Torah observant messianic jews who continue to celebarate many, not not most or all of the Hebrew feastivals.

Non-Torah observant messianic jews who don’t celebrate the Hebrew feastivals but retain their identiy as Jewish believers in Christ (descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob).

Most messianic jews are “protestant” (more akin to evangelical christians than Catholic). This is likely due in part to persectution of the Jews by the Church (or by senior members of the Church as evidenced in the writings of the early Church fathers) which has left a lasting cultural impression on the Jewish community. Evangelical Christians have in the last several hundred years, been much more favorably disposed to the Jews and ultimately to support of Israel.

Catholic teaching has improved in this area since Vatican II.

Of the dozen or so messianic jews that I know and fellowship with in my area, I am the only one disposed towards Catholic doctrine and the Church. I’m working on the others 🙂

Blessings,

Brian
 
People wanting to learn more should check out Hebrewcatholic.org. They comprise about 1/8 of Jews who believe in Christ as the Messiah. Their articles and sharings have greatly helped me increase the understanding of our church regarding their insights and connecting experiences and images with Old and New Testament in a way that only someone of Jewish heritage could.

The Messianic Jews believe in Jesus, but they do not have the Church, and thus have same of the issues our separated brethren have in the Protestant denominations.
 
Most so-called Messianic Jews try to blend pop-evangelicalism with what they imagine are either pre-Christian Jewish practices (such as one sees in epics as THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) or post-Christian Rabbinical Judaism, usually of the Reformed variety.

As you can see, it’s not a very authentic result.
 
This is likely due in part to persectution of the Jews by the Church (or by senior members of the Church as evidenced in the writings of the early Church fathers)

Can you be specific about this, Brian, by giving the relevant quotes and documentation?
 
I would strongly advise you to visit Hebrewcatholic.org. There is alot there. The Hebrew Catholic catechists are very enriching. You will find a very different perspective, both Catholic as well as drawing on their Jewish roots.

I read Roy Shoeman’s book, ‘Salvation is from the Jews’, and strongly recommend it to those interested in learning more about the Jewish people discovering the completion of their identity in the Catholic Church.
 
Bless ya Brian appreciated helpful post.

Praise b to G-d for it.
 
Cluny said:
This is likely due in part to persectution of the Jews by the Church (or by senior members of the Church as evidenced in the writings of the early Church fathers)

Can you be specific about this, Brian, by giving the relevant quotes and documentation?
Click to expand...
Cluny - sure - some early church father quotes are below. This history has been an obstacle to me in my journey - although I believe I have come to understand and accept that this history does not affect the doctrines (and truth of the doctrines) of the Church.

Below are just a few of many similar quotes of early Church fathers towards the Jews:

"The synagogue is worse than a brothel . . it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts. … the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults . . the refuge of brigands and debauchees, and the cavern of devils. [It is] a criminal assembly of Jews . . . a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ. . a house worse than a drinking shop . . a den of theieves; a house of ill fame, a dweling in iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and abys of perdition. . . . As for me, I hate the synagogue. . . I hate the Jews for the same reason. " (St. John Chrysostom - Quoted in Malcolm Hay, the Roots of Christian AntiSemitism)

“The Jews, against whom the blood of Jesus Christ calls out, although they ought not be killed, lest the Christian people forget the Divine Law, yet as wanderers ought they to remain upon the earth, until their countenance be filled with shame.” (Pope Innocent III)

And then, as a matter of historical record, there is the persecution of the Jews during the crucades in the name of Christ, the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Catholic Church historians have also written of, and acknowledged the persectution and killing of entire Jewish populations over allegations of descretion of the host.

Again - I appreciate these are acts of individuals (misguided) within the Church - but to the Jewish community, it is a history wroght with pain and suffering.

Michael Brown - perhaps the leading messianic jewish apologist of our day, wrote a very powerful (and convicting) book called “Our Hands are Stained with Blood” - the "tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish People.

I respect Michael - he is a brilliant and sincere believer - the book is worth a read by all Christians to get a better grounding in the mistakes we (Christians) have made in the past, and the obstacles we (Christians) have created for the jewish people to accept the gospel because of their misimpression of the teachings of Jesus.

Blessings,

Brian
 
There is a group here in the United States that is drawing back on Spain…but its 700 year history and the Muslim Moors. I remember hearing a Protestant history teaching referring to Spain as a victim becoming like its abuser…I don’t like the Spanish bullfights…

Only in the past 10 years did the Church finally open all the very detailed documents of the Spanish Inquisition. I have never read the actual documents. But the main crimes were committed by the laity, and in fact it was the Catholic clergy who cleared many Jews from conviction. The actual deaths were 6,000 vs the alleged numbers. There were also two American 1840’s type who wrote on the Spanish Inquisition, sharing many true points but also with many passages out of context.

There was alot of very bad blood between the Jews who did not convert and those who did. There are passages from the Talmud that curse Jesus. There are Jews who read it. There are Jews who never heard of it. The Muslims have and use this to stereotype all Jews.

I work with Jewish people, and find my faith having many of the same sensitivities. I also note when first coming into their homes and serving them that they are waiting to hear my use of language. I never say, ‘OMG’. They do not like us using the name ‘J-h’ because it is so sacred to them, they don’t like it used as casually as we do in our liturgies.

But the Jewish people gave us the Word of God, the psalms, the history of their faith in the One True God, and through them in Jesus, we now have the way of eternal life. I know the Hebrew Catholics want restoration of some of our Jewish roots. People are making prayer shawls now in many Catholic and Protestant churches…and looking at preparing for Mass with not just reading the Sabbath’s Scripture readings the evening before, but ritualizing it with candles. I have to go to Mass on Saturday evening…and for me to maintain the sacred, my Sabbath begins then and I try to contemplate the Lord for the next 24 hours, my time of rest ending Sunday pm.

I feel fully Catholic now drawing on the perspective of my faith from my Hebrew counterparts. I would strongly recommend Brian to check them out. They could probably do a better job communicating Catholicism to him.
 
I have some friends who call themselves Messianic Jews.

First, I should say that I sense in them a simple, passionate zeal, that is often lacking among many people who call themselves “Christians”. Yet, I can’t shake that feeling of uneasiness that trying to put a Jewish cloak around Christianity is exactly the thing about which Paul had to write so strongly to the Galatians.

I recently came across this newsletter:
tikkunministries.org/newsletters/dj-oct09.asp
and I found it not only a little hard to digest, but also a little disconcerting.

How do we respond with the love of Christ, especially since I’m willing to grant that some of these are our brothers in Christ?!
 
DeiGratia said:
I have some friends who call themselves Messianic Jews.

First, I should say that I sense in them a simple, passionate zeal, that is often lacking among many people who call themselves “Christians”. Yet, I can’t shake that feeling of uneasiness that trying to put a Jewish cloak around Christianity is exactly the thing about which Paul had to write so strongly to the Galatians.

I recently came across this newsletter:
tikkunministries.org/newsletters/dj-oct09.asp
and I found it not only a little hard to digest, but also a little disconcerting.

How do we respond with the love of Christ, especially since I’m willing to grant that some of these are our brothers in Christ?!
Click to expand...
This is a beautiful post. I struggle with this as well. I am a Jewish believer and I fellowship with many messianic jews. However, I share your perspective on this issue. My concern is that many messianic jewish groups (as well as the largely Gentile Hebrew Roots movement) preach a mandatory Torah observance gospel which, to me, is very much what we read about in Acts, Galations and Hebrews and which was expressly rejected by the apostles.

I think the common ground revolves around the word “liberty”. As believers, we have “liberty” to express our faith from different cultural heritages - albeit without changing the gospel. Thus, for example, there are Hebrew Catholics - Catholics who follow the teachings of the Church and abide by the sacraments but who “choose” to observe some or all of the Jewish feast days (albeit with a richer understanding and dimension given our faith in Christ) - but do this out of “liberty” and “choice” rather than “obligation”.

A further problem is that many (if not most) messianic jews (I know this is a generalization) are more akin to “protestant” in thinking than Catholic.

Ultimately, the key, as with other non-Catholics (Protestants) is to celebrate what we have in common and work in love and respect to dispelling misunderstandings about Catholic teaching and doctrine and, in this case, to use the dialogue to enrich the Catholic experience by obtaining a better understanding of the Jewish roots of our faith.

Blessings,

Brian
 
I just got an email from my Hebrew Catholic friend in Jerusalem from ecclesiastical circles in Rome.

Once Christians break away from the Catholic tradition of the apostles, anything goes. I tried to reach out to the Messianic Jews but got no where.

It is hard for Jews to believe in a God divided into 3 parts. And there are a number of reasons why Messianic Jews cannot be part of other Christian churches, the first being the anti-Semitic history against them.

But the main reason is that it is the work of God through the Holy Spirit to open the heart of His chosen people to recognize the Messiah, and we are not there yet.

Check out www.Israelcatholic.com…
 
Steven_John said:
Hi everyone,
I would like to know about the commonality and differences between the two in regards to belief.
Click to expand...
One, big key difference that no one has mentioned is that Messianic Jews believe in the literal fulfilling of the prophecies concerning Jesus’ second coming to save and restore the land and people of Israel, and then literally rule from Israel for a 1000 years before he turns the Kingdom over to the Father, then the New Jerusalem, etc.

I know there is alot more to this, but they hold to the literal prophecies of Jesus second coming concerning Israel, just like the prophecies of Jesus first coming to Israel.

Messianics usually prefer to stay within their own Jewish communities to make Jesus Christ an unavoidable issue to their brethern, the broken branches that can be grafted back in.

That is why they refer themselves as “Messianic Jews”. They do not call themselves this to sound different from or consider themselves above other Christians, like some might say they do.
 
Robbinson said:
Great answer - I fully concur. Messianic Jews who are Catholics are sometimes referred to as “Hebrew Catholics”.

I’m a Jewish believer - and thus some would call me a “messianic jew”. But “messianic jews” come in many flavors 🙂
Click to expand...
True. But Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants come in all flavors also, lets be fair about this.

But there is something to learn from the remnant of Israel(that God always has chosen) that all Churches can ponder. Are they based solely on grace, works of the Law, or even a mingling of the two?

Romans 11:1-6
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
 
Lev23 said:
True. But Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants come in all flavors also, lets be fair about this.

But there is something to learn from the remnant of Israel(that God always has chosen) that all Churches can ponder. Are they based solely on grace, works of the Law, or even a mingling of the two?

Romans 11:1-6
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Click to expand...
Hi Lev23

Please expound because I’m just not following your point? I didn’t mean to suggest at all that Catholics/Protestants don’t come in many flavors - we do of course, just that we can’t generalize about “messianic jews”.

I’m not following what you are trying to say with your quote of Romans so please elaborate a bit further. thanks

Brian
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top