Messianic Jews Vs Catholics

[Lev23]

Evangelical Christians have in the last several hundred years, been much more favorably disposed to the Jews and ultimately to support of Israel.

Catholic teaching has improved in this area since Vatican II.

Israel should be supported by all Chrisitans, first and foremost with the Gospel and the Churches that operate there.

Today, right now, we have a Jewish nation in the land of Israel, named Israel.

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

“First for the Jew,…” seems like a no-brainer to support Israel. But for those who still hold back, consider God’s faithful statement to Israel.

**Jeremiah 31-37
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

It will not be like the covenant 
   I made with their forefathers 
   when I took them by the hand 
   to lead them out of Egypt, 
   because they broke my covenant, 
   though I was a husband to them," 
   declares the LORD. 

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel 
   after that time," declares the LORD. 
   "I will put my law in their minds 
   and write it on their hearts. 
   I will be their God, 
   and they will be my people. 

No longer will a man teach his neighbor, 
   or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' 
   because they will all know me, 
   from the least of them to the greatest," 
   declares the LORD. 
   "For I will forgive their wickedness 
   and will remember their sins no more." 

This is what the LORD says, 
   he who appoints the sun 
   to shine by day, 
   who decrees the moon and stars 
   to shine by night, 
   who stirs up the sea 
   so that its waves roar— 
   the LORD Almighty is his name: 

"Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," 
   declares the LORD, 
   "will the descendants of Israel ever cease 
   to be a nation before me." 

This is what the LORD says: 
   "Only if the heavens above can be measured 
   and the foundations of the earth below be searched out 
   will I reject all the descendants of Israel 
   because of all they have done," 
   declares the LORD. **

 

[Lev23]

Hi Lev23

Please expound because I’m just not following your point? I didn’t mean to suggest at all that Catholics/Protestants don’t come in many flavors - we do of course, just that we can’t generalize about “messianic jews”.

I’m not following what you are trying to say with your quote of Romans so please elaborate a bit further. thanks

Brian

I understand what you mean, and I tried to explain this in the thread called “protestants in a jewish wrapper” on this same forum.

The thing is all Churches(or “flavors”) can take a note of when God Himself choses a remnant at this present time, it is by His Spirit and Grace. Sometimes the whole “Messianic” crowd gets a bum wrap because of some who are Law following or practice a mixture of Law and Grace.

I will add that those who do celebrate the biblical appointed times, or feasts, do it all in the realization of the fulfillment and freedom of Jesus Christ. There is no reward or penalty for doing or not doing so. And certainly imposing these things as mandatory to another believer is wrong also.

 

[DeiGratia]

This is a beautiful post. I struggle with this as well. I am a Jewish believer and I fellowship with many messianic jews. However, I share your perspective on this issue. My concern is that many messianic jewish groups (as well as the largely Gentile Hebrew Roots movement) preach a mandatory Torah observance gospel which, to me, is very much what we read about in Acts, Galations and Hebrews and which was expressly rejected by the apostles.
…

Blessings,

Brian

Brian, thanks for sharing this! I think you hit the nail on the head with your last sentence quoted above.

I have no problem with people using whatever means to strengthen their devotion to God (as long as the practice isn’t contrary God’s laws, obviously). Where I do think it crosses the line, however, is if the practice is preached as mandatory, where Scripture itself does not make it so.

 

[jazzbird]

shalom to all,

As director of Catholics for Israel, I have read this thread with interest. I have lived in Israel for some 10 years and have a good deal of experience with MJs.

Here is a fairly extensive article on Messianic Judaism I have written a few years ago:
Messianic Judaism and Christian Zionism

Otherwise, just a couple of comments:

We Catholics are are 100% Messianic Jews. Simple Logic; Jesus was a Jew, Jesus was the Messiah, Jesus founded the Catholic Church. It seems that even the most simple among us can see that Catholics are Messianic Jews

I would totally disagree with this statement. By believing in Jesus or being Christian/Catholic Gentiles do not in any way become Jews. Being Jewish means to be a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and of the children of Israel (or having joined this people through conversion). The Church is the place of reconciliation between Jews and Gentiles, but in no way do Gentiles become Jews within the Church. Likewise, Jews who become Christian/Catholic do not cease to be Jews.

When Paul writes “there is no more Jew nor Greek” he means this regarding equality in salvation, but there remains distinct callings for Jews and Gentiles - just as when he says “no man, no woman” actually there remains very different roles for men and women - though they are equal regarding salvation.

Understanding this also helps us to understand when Paul is speaking “against” the Law. He is opposing the Judaizing of Gentiles (e.g. in Galatians), saying that they should not be compelled to be circumcised and to follow the Law. But while calling the Jews to believe in Christ he never says that they should stop being Jews or should forsake observance of the Torah. In fact in Acts 21 we see that Paul paid for the offering of sacrifices to prove that he was not in any way discouraging Jews from being circumcised or from keeping the Torah.

with blessings,
Ariel

 

[Kaninchen]

Likewise, Jews who become Christian/Catholic do not cease to be Jews.

Who gets to decide that, would you say?

 

[Harpazo]

Who gets to decide that, would you say?

I was wondering the same thing. When I was Protestant and became Catholic, was I a Protestant Catholic?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Kaninchen]

I was wondering the same thing. When I was Protestant and became Catholic, was I a Protestant Catholic?

In Christ,
Andrew

I see your point.

Just what Jewish community (other than the few Jews who become Christians and those Protestants who call themselves ‘Messianic Jews’ but who are just Christian Evangelicals who like a bit of Judaica in their lives) regards Christians as Jews?

Do the rest of us Jews have a say in who is, or isn’t, a Jew?

 

[jazzbird]

Jews who become Christian/Catholic do not cease to be Jews.
Who gets to decide that, would you say?

I think nobody gets to decide - it’s just in the nature of things. Being Jewish is not just subscribing to a set of doctrines, it means belonging to a people by descent. The faith is an important component of being Jewish, but the main thing is to be born from a Jewish mother. Why would a Jew who believes in Jesus the Jewish Messiah would cease to be a Jew and to belong to the people of Israel?

When I was Protestant and became Catholic, was I a Protestant Catholic?

This is totally different, because being Protestant has nothing to do with belonging to a people. It is accepting a certain group of doctrines (often in opposition to Catholicism, thus ‘Protestant’ coming from ‘protest’) and perhaps belonging to a certain church, but it is not being part of nation by descent like Jews belong to the people of Israel.

We see several instances of Paul’s faithfulness to Torah and to his Jewish identity in the book of Acts - long after his conversion to Christ: he has Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3). He is in a rush to return to Jerusalem in order to celebrate a Jewish feast: “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem” (Acts 18:21, preserved in some manuscripts). Also on his following trip “he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost” (Acts 20:16). Following his arrest by the Romans he declares (not in the past but in the present tense): “I am a Jew, from Tarsus” (21:39; 22:3) and “I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees” (Acts 23:6). Paul pays for sacrifices in the Temple to prove that he is not teaching Jews to abandon Moses and the customs of Torah (Acts 21:20-26), and later affirms: “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended at all” (Acts 25:8). So it’s clear that Paul was still proud of his Jewishness long after his conversion.

For more on this see a recent debate that I had with Robert Sungenis:
israelcatholic.com/content/view/123/119/lang,en/

God bless!
Ariel

 

[Kaninchen]

I think nobody gets to decide - it’s just in the nature of things.

In other words, you get to decide. At least you ‘think’ you do.

 

[jpaul1953]

Cluny - sure - some early church father quotes are below. This history has been an obstacle to me in my journey - although I believe I have come to understand and accept that this history does not affect the doctrines (and truth of the doctrines) of the Church.

Below are just a few of many similar quotes of early Church fathers towards the Jews:

"The synagogue is worse than a brothel . . it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts. … the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults . . the refuge of brigands and debauchees, and the cavern of devils. [It is] a criminal assembly of Jews . . . a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ. . a house worse than a drinking shop . . a den of theieves; a house of ill fame, a dweling in iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and abys of perdition. . . . As for me, I hate the synagogue. . . I hate the Jews for the same reason. " (St. John Chrysostom - Quoted in Malcolm Hay, the Roots of Christian AntiSemitism)

“The Jews, against whom the blood of Jesus Christ calls out, although they ought not be killed, lest the Christian people forget the Divine Law, yet as wanderers ought they to remain upon the earth, until their countenance be filled with shame.” (Pope Innocent III)

And then, as a matter of historical record, there is the persecution of the Jews during the crucades in the name of Christ, the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Catholic Church historians have also written of, and acknowledged the persectution and killing of entire Jewish populations over allegations of descretion of the host.

Again - I appreciate these are acts of individuals (misguided) within the Church - but to the Jewish community, it is a history wroght with pain and suffering.

Michael Brown - perhaps the leading messianic jewish apologist of our day, wrote a very powerful (and convicting) book called “Our Hands are Stained with Blood” - the "tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish People.

I respect Michael - he is a brilliant and sincere believer - the book is worth a read by all Christians to get a better grounding in the mistakes we (Christians) have made in the past, and the obstacles we (Christians) have created for the jewish people to accept the gospel because of their misimpression of the teachings of Jesus.

Blessings,

Brian

Robbinson,

Per chance, did you ever think that some of the apparent distaste for the early Jews by the Early Church fathers is a reaction and a defense to the hate that so many Jews according to the Book of Acts had for the Christians… Please read…

Just because there are some historical writings of the 'Early Church fathers that are still on record dosen’t mean that many ‘Old Covenant Jews’ didn’t initiate the defensive opinions of the time by verbal or wriiten remarks that are no longer available, possibly due to Hitler’s hate for the Jewish people and his desire to eliminate all writings of the Jewish authors. You might only have half of the story. Food for thought.

jpaul1953

 

[Robbinson]

Robbinson,

Per chance, did you ever think that some of the apparent distaste for the early Jews by the Early Church fathers is a reaction and a defense to the hate that so many Jews according to the Book of Acts had for the Christians… Please read…

Just because there are some historical writings of the 'Early Church fathers that are still on record dosen’t mean that many ‘Old Covenant Jews’ didn’t initiate the defensive opinions of the time by verbal or wriiten remarks that are no longer available, possibly due to Hitler’s hate for the Jewish people and his desire to eliminate all writings of the Jewish authors. You might only have half of the story. Food for thought.

jpaul1953

Thank you jpaul - I appreciate that and you are almost certainly right. There are “always” two sides of a debate, and two sides of a conflict. To be fair, the earliest persecution was of Jews to Christians in the book of Acts. Most importantly, I think we all (Christians) can agree that persecution of others over faith (regardless of faith) is not appropriate nor a “Christian” thing to do.

I have ultimately distinguished these darker chapters of Church history as behaviors of men within the Church and not official doctrinal or moral positions of the Church. There will always be weeds growing with the wheat - and even good men/woman sincere in their faith, remain fallible and capable of sin and error.

Thank you for the post.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Robbinson]

I think nobody gets to decide - it’s just in the nature of things. Being Jewish is not just subscribing to a set of doctrines, it means belonging to a people by descent. The faith is an important component of being Jewish, but the main thing is to be born from a Jewish mother. Why would a Jew who believes in Jesus the Jewish Messiah would cease to be a Jew and to belong to the people of Israel?

This is totally different, because being Protestant has nothing to do with belonging to a people. It is accepting a certain group of doctrines (often in opposition to Catholicism, thus ‘Protestant’ coming from ‘protest’) and perhaps belonging to a certain church, but it is not being part of nation by descent like Jews belong to the people of Israel.

We see several instances of Paul’s faithfulness to Torah and to his Jewish identity in the book of Acts - long after his conversion to Christ: he has Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3). He is in a rush to return to Jerusalem in order to celebrate a Jewish feast: “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem” (Acts 18:21, preserved in some manuscripts). Also on his following trip “he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost” (Acts 20:16). Following his arrest by the Romans he declares (not in the past but in the present tense): “I am a Jew, from Tarsus” (21:39; 22:3) and “I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees” (Acts 23:6). Paul pays for sacrifices in the Temple to prove that he is not teaching Jews to abandon Moses and the customs of Torah (Acts 21:20-26), and later affirms: “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended at all” (Acts 25:8). So it’s clear that Paul was still proud of his Jewishness long after his conversion.

For more on this see a recent debate that I had with Robert Sungenis:
israelcatholic.com/content/view/123/119/lang,en/

God bless!
Ariel

I’ll listen to the debate Ariel - but as to Paul, he made it clear that was not under the law but preached to the Jews (as well as to the Gentiles) in a manner designed further the spread and reception of the gospel. When you read 1 Cor 9:20 below, note how Paul expressly states that he is not unde the law (referring to the law of moses) though become as though he is when preaching to the Jews.

1 cor 9:20 (“To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law—though not being myself under the law—that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law—not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ—that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.”)

Blessings,

Brian

 

[jazzbird]

Brian -

yes that’s true but keep in mind that the passages I have cited above from Acts were all written several years later than 1 Cor. (in fact probably a decade or two later) - so 1 Cor should not be taken on its own but within the greater perspective of Acts.

From living 10 years in Israel I have observed that one of the greatest obstacles keeping Jews away from the Gospel is the problem of supersessionism - that instead of telling them the ‘good news’ of salvation, many Christians tell them what is not ‘good news’ at all - that to follow Jesus they must forsake everything they hold dear: Torah, Shabbat, the Jewish feasts, the right to a home in Israel, etc…

In my experience when sharing the faith with Jews, the sure wait to hit a closed door is to give the impression that one is trying to rob their inheritance and heritage. A way which I find much more effective is to acknowledge the Torah as “holy, and the commandment… holy and righteous and good (Rom*7:12)”, and add that there God has MORE for them. This opens their hearts much more to the fullness of truth.

It’s like child psychology: try to take away the child’s toy and it will resist and scream and refuse anything else in exchange. Show it another toy that an addition or enhancement to the first toy and the child want to have it - while even appreciating the first toy even more.

my 2 cents,
Ariel

 

[jazzbird]

In other words, you get to decide. At least you ‘think’ you do.

yeah sorry kaninchen, I guess I gave the impression of being a know-it-all. Sorry, you are right.

What do you think, that a Jew who believes in Jesus ceases to be a Jew?

 

[Robbinson]

Brian -

yes that’s true but keep in mind that the passages I have cited above from Acts were all written several years later than 1 Cor. (in fact probably a decade or two later) - so 1 Cor should not be taken on its own but within the greater perspective of Acts.

From living 10 years in Israel I have observed that one of the greatest obstacles keeping Jews away from the Gospel is the problem of supersessionism - that instead of telling them the ‘good news’ of salvation, many Christians tell them what is not ‘good news’ at all - that to follow Jesus they must forsake everything they hold dear: Torah, Shabbat, the Jewish feasts, the right to a home in Israel, etc…

In my experience when sharing the faith with Jews, the sure wait to hit a closed door is to give the impression that one is trying to rob their inheritance and heritage. A way which I find much more effective is to acknowledge the Torah as “holy, and the commandment… holy and righteous and good (Rom*7:12)”, and add that there God has MORE for them. This opens their hearts much more to the fullness of truth.

It’s like child psychology: try to take away the child’s toy and it will resist and scream and refuse anything else in exchange. Show it another toy that an addition or enhancement to the first toy and the child want to have it - while even appreciating the first toy even more.

my 2 cents,
Ariel

Ariel

I understand and as a Jewish believer, I can appreciate that sensitivity. But there is a significant difference (which I tried to highlight in a post earlier in this thread) between “mandatory or obligatory” Torah observance (a troublingly pervasive belief in messianic judaism and the Hebrew Roots movement today) and “liberty” to “choose” to continue to celebrate a Jewish heritage as believers. The latter is fine and not inconsistent with Church doctorine, the former is judaizing which was squarely addressed in Galations, Hebrews and Acts.

As to the chronology of Corinthians and Acts - we can speculate on that timing, but even if you are correct, i think the verses in Corinthians is very clear that Paul did not consider himself to be under the law of moses.

As to evangalism and the ability to share the gospel with Jews - while I understand there would be a natural belief that presenting a jewish/messianic jewish gospel would be more attractive to Jewish nonbelievers, ironically (i) scripture suggests that the Jews will come to faith through jealosy of the Gentile’s relationship with God (e.g., rather than through a messianic jewish experience/evangelicism and (ii) empircally, I believe most Jews who have come to faith (even those now celebrating their faith in a messianic jewish worship setting) will likely tell you they came to faith through the efforts of Gentile believers rather than through messianic jewish evangelism efforts.

In any event - its an interesting issue. I think a key is to avoid doctrines which have the affect of dividing the body of Christ. Doctrines of “liberty” which allow us to celebrate the gospel and the sacraments while respecting and celebrating our respective heritages (whether Jewish, or cultural (e.g., latin american, asian, etc) are faith building and create “unity”, albeit not uniformity - which is fine. But doctrines which suggest that a group “must” do something different than the remainder of the body of Christ (e.g., Jews must follow Torah or celebrate the Jewish feasts) seems contra to this doctrine of unity and contra to the liberty given to us and described in the book of Hebrews.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Kaninchen]

What do you think, that a Jew who believes in Jesus ceases to be a Jew?

In a religious sense, obviously, in terms of being part of the ‘Jewish people’, they’ve ‘applied for citizenship’ elsewhere.

 

[Robbinson]

In a religious sense, obviously, in terms of being part of the ‘Jewish people’, they’ve ‘applied for citizenship’ elsewhere.

That’s an interesting perspective Kaninchen. What do you think of the Lubevich chasidic jews who believed (and some still believe) that their now deceased rebbe is the messiah. Are they no longer Jews because the substantial majority of jews disagree with them? Since I assume not - why then are Jews who believe Jesus the messiah no longer Jews?

And what about “jews” who do not believe in the scriptures and/or do not necessarily believe in God - are they no longer Jews?

Perhaps you can define “jew” for me? If you look at scripture - a Jew is a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through paternal lines. If you look at rabbinic judaism, its the same but through maternal lines. I’m not sure there is a basis for saying that Jew who believes, for example, in the inerrancy of scripture (more observant than 95% of all Jews therefore) who believes that Jesus is the Messiah ceases to be a “Jew”.

This is why you can be a Jewish Catholic or a Gentile Catholic. A Jew in scripture is a descendant of Abarahm, Isaac and Jacob - a gentile is everyone else.

Blesings,

Brian (a Jewish Christian ).

 

[Kaninchen]

That’s an interesting perspective Kaninchen. What do you think of the Lubevich chasidic jews who believed (and some still believe) that their now deceased rebbe is the messiah.

They didn’t believe he was God.

And what about “jews” who do not believe in the scriptures and/or do not necessarily believe in God - are they no longer Jews?

Are lapsed Catholics no longer Catholics? Or are they Catholics in ‘abeyance’.

Perhaps you can define “jew” for me?

Not for me to do so, a Jew is somebody who is ‘Halachically’ Jewish.

 

[Robbinson]

They didn’t believe he was God.

Ah - but we don’t believe a man became God, but rather that God became a man. I imagine you believe that God can become a man? I hope you do, as he did even in the Hebrew scriptures when the Lord appeared in the form of a man to converse with Abraham on the way to Soddom (together with 2 angels).

As to the messiah being divine - there are talmudic teachings that suggest he would have divine attributes (pre-existant from all eternity).

Are lapsed Catholics no longer Catholics? Or are they Catholics in ‘abeyance’.

There is a distinction - Jew is defined in scripture by descent from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - Christian is defined in scripture as one who believes in Christ as the Messiah. They are not mutually exclusive - but a Catholic or other Christian who does not believe is not a Christian, but a Jew is a Jew regardless of belief.

Not for me to do so, a Jew is somebody who is ‘Halachically’ Jewish.

A fair, and intellectually honest answer - thank you. I would say the answer is clear from scripture who a Jew is - but if one wants to defer to rabbinic authority (there is no sanhedrin any longer), this is “unclear” even under Halachich law (today) - its an ongoing debate (the definition of Jew rabinnicly speaking).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Kaninchen]

Ah - but we don’t believe a man became God, but rather that God became a man. I imagine you believe that God can become a man? I hope you do, as he did even in the Hebrew scriptures when the Lord appeared in the form of a man to converse with Abraham on the way to Soddom (together with 2 angels).

As to the messiah being divine - there are talmudic teachings that suggest he would have divine attributes (pre-existant from all eternity).

This isn’t a conversation where it’s necessary for you to bore me with your version of evangelism or me to bore you with why I don’t accept a word of it. You asked me what I thought of the Rebbe business and I said they didn’t believe he was God.

A fair, and intellectually honest answer - thank you. I would say the answer is clear from scripture who a Jew is - but if one wants to defer to rabbinic authority (there is no sanhedrin any longer), this is “unclear” even under Halachich law (today) - its an ongoing debate (the definition of Jew rabinnicly speaking).

You’re entitled to an opinion, I’ll stick with the much more entertaining rows between Beth Din.