R
Robbinson
Guest
Wow - perhaps you should reflect on the lack of charity in your post/reply (I don’t know where that came from or why) and ask yourself why?
Blessings,
Brian
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Blessings,
Brian
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I’d have thought you’d have noted that the criticism was mutual in the former comment and there was something of a joke about Judaism’s (sometimes) hair-splitting nature in the latter.
Why? Because, sometimes, evangelists need to be told that not every conversation is a hard-sell opportunity - it can make future interactions much more pleasant.
S
Steven_John
Guest
Peace and blessings,
I thank and praise G-d for all of the great posts here on this topic.
I have met and prayed “with” our local messianic community (maybe a dozen adults).
They are not Jewish law obedient. They are people of the signs so to speak observing appointed feast of Our G-ds word.
They all seemed very pleasant but were not very understanding of the message Yeshua (pbwh) taught.
They were very open to hearing it and did not argue against it but outwardly took it to heart, i guess inwardly also but only He knows that.
Here where i live I had been told they are a “cult”.
I did not see them as a cult, their leader was very open to the message of Yeshua (pbwh) and spoke not against it.
For me they accepted Yeshua (pbwh) teaching as authority so they dont fit my definition of a cult.
Praise be to G-d they accept His authority.
Again the posts here on this thread have been a great help, i have also seen a lot of love between you all and that is awesome oft on CAF we go the other way.
Shalom
By His will may G-d bless and guide you all as youes submit unto Him
I thank and praise G-d for all of the great posts here on this topic.
I have met and prayed “with” our local messianic community (maybe a dozen adults).
They are not Jewish law obedient. They are people of the signs so to speak observing appointed feast of Our G-ds word.
They all seemed very pleasant but were not very understanding of the message Yeshua (pbwh) taught.
They were very open to hearing it and did not argue against it but outwardly took it to heart, i guess inwardly also but only He knows that.
Here where i live I had been told they are a “cult”.
I did not see them as a cult, their leader was very open to the message of Yeshua (pbwh) and spoke not against it.
For me they accepted Yeshua (pbwh) teaching as authority so they dont fit my definition of a cult.
Praise be to G-d they accept His authority.
Again the posts here on this thread have been a great help, i have also seen a lot of love between you all and that is awesome oft on CAF we go the other way.
Shalom
By His will may G-d bless and guide you all as youes submit unto Him
L
Lev23
Guest
I know this was addressed to Robbinson, but there really is no excuse for any Christian of any time to give broad examples of “distaste” for everything Jewish. I know there are those Jews outside the Church that work to undermine the Church, and these things need to be addressed by us, like the Apostles did. But to be a Christian and to show contempt to all Jewish people is totally unacceptable, and there no excuse for this to ever happen.
L
Lev23
Guest
The Apostles taught that the Jew and Gentile are made one new creation with another in Yeshua Ha’Mashiach.
But until the resurrection we still are in our natural, “first” bodies, though we have been born again in the Spirit of the God of Israel.
**1 Corinthians 15:42-49
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. **
That being said, because we still our in our natural bodies, of course then a Jew is still a Jew and a Gentile is still ethnically whatever country they are from. Though the New Covenant both partake in through Yeshua is explictably Israeli, for Yeshua is the one and only Son of the God of Israel, and the New Covenant is announced to Israel(Jeremiah31:31-34). So for a Jew to become one new creation with the Gentile in Yeshua does not severe him or her from their Jewish heritage. The scriptural appointed times, among other things, are done in the fulfillment and celebration of Yeshua. Christians who are Jews celebrate the fact that the God of Israel has revealed how He reconciled Jew and Gentile, by His Son, to be one new creation in Him.
The Apostles taught that the Jews must not impose any “works” to add to the Grace given to the Church. The Church from Jerusalem gave the Gentile Christians a few instructions when they were faced the problem of some imposing the Law of Moses on them-
Acts 15:28-29
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
To conclude and to answer your question, the Apostles taught our Lord and God decides this-
**1 Corinthians 7:17-20
Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. **
K
Kaninchen
Guest
So, what you’re saying is that, on the basis of Christian scriptures that we don’t believe in, we Jews have to accept as Jews those who Christians have decided are Jews?
L
Lev23
Guest
First, I know I used New Testament writings in my last post. It was just to show you where I was coming from.
But just to point out, that the Apostolic teachings and witness report of Yeshua and the Church are supported by old testament scriptures. The blood atonement, prophecies of Messiah and Israel(including last days), God’s ultimate plan for the Gentiles, the New Covenant where God remembering sins no more, etc., can be found in the Old Testament. Yeshua Himself taught the Apostles from the OT after His resurrection. One could argue that Luke and Acts are NT writings, but if this Jewish Yeshua and His Jewish Apostles teachings and their witness of Yeshua as Israel’s Messiah were not based on the Jewish Scriptures, then the whole thing can be considered nothing more than a new religion by the world. But Yeshua Ha’Masiach and the Apostles teachings of Him can be supported in the scriptures of the Jewish people, who are both still with us today.
To get back to the heart of your question, it is Jews who label their own as not being Jewish anymore that have decided who is Jewish or not. The Apostles never taught that Jews stop becoming Jews. There was an issue that came up early in the Church when Gentiles accepted the Gospel of Yeshua based on the witness report of the Apostles and Jewish scriptures. It was over Jewish believers imposing the Law of Moses on Gentile believers. And the Apostles dealt with the issue clearly, and never was the idea of Jews losing their Jewish idenity ever brought up.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Like I said to a previous poster, this is not a conversation where it’s necessary for you to bore me with your evangelism or for me to bore you with why I don’t believe a word of it. In fact, I can’t see that you could have chosen a better approach if a complete breakdown in conversation is what you were seeking.
D
Daedelus76
Guest
I think the Eastern tradition in Christianity is closer to Judaism, since they had fewer issues of grace vs. works. Interestingly enough, they also “baptized” pagans like Socrates and some of the other Greek mythical/historical figures. Many of the Jews of the 1st century were familiar with Hellenistic culture- Philo of Alexandria was popular with early Christians, he was basicly a Jewish Neo-Platonist. St. Paul himself seems to reference Greek literature on several points in the NT, clearly he was familiar with it.
The traditional Christian Old Testament was in Greek, not the Masoretic text that the Jews accepted at a post-Christian council. So there are alot of books of Jewish literature that Christians accepted as canonical, that Jews later rejected in their own canon - that’s another important difference.
The traditional Christian Old Testament was in Greek, not the Masoretic text that the Jews accepted at a post-Christian council. So there are alot of books of Jewish literature that Christians accepted as canonical, that Jews later rejected in their own canon - that’s another important difference.
L
Lev23
Guest
You asked Jazzbird who decides wheter or not Jews who become Christians are still Jews. I answered your question with the God of Israel, after I gave information why I believe so. If you gave me an answer for whatever, I would appreciate your reasoning or proof why you believe that way.
If you firmly hold to what you believe in, and want answers to your questions from others who believe differently, you might get some reasoning in return. I would expect the same.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I’ve said, quite clearly (post #38) who Jews regard as Jewish, according to ‘The Law’. My question to jazzbird was, in a sense, rhetorical. Who decides who is a Jew? Do we Jews get any say in it? The thing is, you can call whoever you like ‘a Jew’ but you shouldn’t count on them being included at the table on Shabbat - that’s up to us.
Meanwhile, you can quote the ‘New Testament’ and try to link it to the Tanakh as much as you like but, since I don’t accord it of any value whatsoever in discussions of things Jewish, it’s pretty pointless to do so. It may be of great significance to you, it’s of zero significance to me.
L
Lev23
Guest
They sure do get a say. And it is obvious that Jews who believe in Yeshua as Messiah are not considered Jews anymore by Orthodox Judasim. Christians say the God of Israel decides this. I’ll go with what the God of Israel has to say.
Are Karaite Jews included at the table on Shabbat?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
When Catholics decide that the Pope should, in future, be chosen by a council of Sunni Imams on the grounds that Muslims say that Islam is the ultimate fulfillment of God’s word, I’m sure we’ll be impressed.
They’re halakhically Jewish.
L
Lev23
Guest
Or will you?!
But do they care about that since they do not consider the Oral Law binding? Messianic Jews read the scriptures for themselves just like Karaites, it’s just that they accepted the report of Yeshua’s Apostles because they see it from the Jewish scriptures.
It must be a New Covenant thing. When one reads what the God of Israel says about the New Covenant(that will not be like the one He made with the forefathers of Israel and Judah when He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke His covenant)-
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more." -Jeremiah 31:34
-there is not alot of room for Rabbi this and Rabbi that type commentary and tradition.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
As I said, it’s not a conversation where it’s really necessary for us to bore one another.
L
Lev23
Guest
I don’t think what we are discussing is boring. It is not like we are discussing Apple vs. personal computer.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, KathleenGee,
Thank you for the link.
The AHC (Association of Hebrew Catholics) seeks to help preserve the corporate identity and heritage of the People Israel within the Church. By gathering the Jews who have entered the Church, we hope to help them rekindle and live out their collective vocation, giving corporate witness to Jesus, the Messiah of Israel and His Church. We hope, as well, to help the Church prepare for the day when the Lord will gather and unite all peoples to Himself, hastening the day when all Israel will proclaim “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.”
And, I must confess, I do not understand why they are doing this in the first place. My understanding is rather simple: Christ was born a Jew and His Mission was to the Jews first. The Jews rejected Christ and Christ then expanded His Mission to the Gentiles. Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and founded His Church (and that would be the Catholic Church) on Peter. Over time (not that much time, actually) there was a physical break with Jewish focused practices and observances. The Judiazers were shown the error of their ways and Church developed along totally different lines. These lines were under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Trying to go back or maintain Jewish customs - seems to establish an initial conflict: the Jews were promised a Messiah - and this Promise was fulfilled, and a new course was set. To want to keep the beliefs of Judaism, while claiming Christ is the Messiah, but still claiming anything Jewish simply makes no sense to may way of thinking.
So, if you can explain this to me, I would apprecite it.
Thanks and God bless
Thank you for the link.
I went there and plan to return … but, I copied and pasted a section as to their mission:
The AHC (Association of Hebrew Catholics) seeks to help preserve the corporate identity and heritage of the People Israel within the Church. By gathering the Jews who have entered the Church, we hope to help them rekindle and live out their collective vocation, giving corporate witness to Jesus, the Messiah of Israel and His Church. We hope, as well, to help the Church prepare for the day when the Lord will gather and unite all peoples to Himself, hastening the day when all Israel will proclaim “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.”
And, I must confess, I do not understand why they are doing this in the first place. My understanding is rather simple: Christ was born a Jew and His Mission was to the Jews first. The Jews rejected Christ and Christ then expanded His Mission to the Gentiles. Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and founded His Church (and that would be the Catholic Church) on Peter. Over time (not that much time, actually) there was a physical break with Jewish focused practices and observances. The Judiazers were shown the error of their ways and Church developed along totally different lines. These lines were under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Trying to go back or maintain Jewish customs - seems to establish an initial conflict: the Jews were promised a Messiah - and this Promise was fulfilled, and a new course was set. To want to keep the beliefs of Judaism, while claiming Christ is the Messiah, but still claiming anything Jewish simply makes no sense to may way of thinking.
So, if you can explain this to me, I would apprecite it.
Thanks and God bless
J
jazzbird
Guest
Tom,
What you are saying is one of the main reasons why Jews have been rejecting the Messiah for 2,000 years. There are several problems with your argument:
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. (Rom 3:1-2, emphasis added)
I include here part of an article that I published elsewhere. For full article see A Response to Robert Sungenis
Maintaining Jewish customs is not “going back.” After all, God gave the Torah to Israel. Celebrating Passover or the Jewish feasts is not just a pointer to Christ, it is also a celebration of very real events that God has accomplished through salvation history.
Insisting on denying and abrogating the validity (and necessity!) of the restoration of a Jewish Church is a sure way to keep the Jews out of it for another few centuries. Hopefully we can come to a deeper and more humble appreciate of their heritage which is also our own.
For more on this see Catholics for Israel
Blessings,
Ariel
What you are saying is one of the main reasons why Jews have been rejecting the Messiah for 2,000 years. There are several problems with your argument:
Not true. Jesus never expanded his mission to Gentiles but was sent only to the “lost sheep of Israel.” The early Church was entirely Jewish. The mission to the Gentiles began later, with the Peter/Cornelius event in Acts 10. Even then the mission to the Gentiles was an expansion of the Jewish mission, not a replacement of it. Paul still always went to the synagogues FIRST when entering a new city.
I think you are confusing the meaning of the term “Judaizer” and understanding it to mean something that it doesn’t. Just look at Rom 3:1-2.
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. (Rom 3:1-2, emphasis added)
I include here part of an article that I published elsewhere. For full article see A Response to Robert Sungenis
In other words, to “Judaize” is to try to force Gentiles to become Jews. Jewish-Christians who wish to retain their Jewish identity are not “Judaizing” anyone. To try to “de-judaize” Jews is just as bad (if not worse) than to try to “judaize” gentiles.
Maintaining Jewish customs is not “going back.” After all, God gave the Torah to Israel. Celebrating Passover or the Jewish feasts is not just a pointer to Christ, it is also a celebration of very real events that God has accomplished through salvation history.
Insisting on denying and abrogating the validity (and necessity!) of the restoration of a Jewish Church is a sure way to keep the Jews out of it for another few centuries. Hopefully we can come to a deeper and more humble appreciate of their heritage which is also our own.
For more on this see Catholics for Israel
Blessings,
Ariel
K
Kaninchen
Guest
When one lives in a society largely indifferent to religion of any kind, the Christian obsession with converting Jews does sound rather like stewards on the Titanic worrying about seating arrangements for breakfast.
J
jazzbird
Guest
I guess I had already quoted the passage above in a previous post. Forgot about that; sorry about the repetition.
Kaninchen: I wouldn’t call it an obsession. This thread just happens on the topic, what else do you expect we would talk about here when discussing Messianic Jews? Plus being interested in the Jewish attitude to Jesus does not mean that one is obsessed in “converting” them.
Kaninchen: I wouldn’t call it an obsession. This thread just happens on the topic, what else do you expect we would talk about here when discussing Messianic Jews? Plus being interested in the Jewish attitude to Jesus does not mean that one is obsessed in “converting” them.
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