Messianic Jews Vs Catholics

[Bubba_Switzler]

The very narrow area where exclusion would apply, for the purposes of this conversation, seems to be for the Jew who is jewish under halacha (i.e, was born jewish from a jewish mother, or who converted) and then converts to messianic judiasm, is considered a non-jew for the purposes of the law of return. And I might even be wrong about that. I’m not 100% clear on the issue.

But this is exactly the case we are most interested in. And not that, according to wikipedia at least, it is not that other Messianic Jews have been permitted to return but that they were not rejected under this rule and the court demanded that their applications be reevaluated. I’m not 100% clear either but I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary.

I meant critical in that you thought the law of return is prejudicial.

Ok, no, I did not believe it to be critical in that sense. Rather the circumstances force a clear and unambiguous decision on the question. So it is useful to know how Jews define Judiasm when their nation’s fate is at stake. A rabbi might well define it differently when he is deciding whether or not to permit a bar mitzvah.

The biggest dispute in this area was the relatively recent decision by Reform Jews to include people who’s father was jewish, but not their mother.

Here is wikipedia on the subject:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

Here is an online book that begins “The burning issue of ‘Who is a jew’ has become one of the most controversial problems in Jewish life today. It has stirred up much debate, animosity and recriminations. It threatens to split the Jewish people as perhaps never before in its history.”

whoisajew.com/

And again, the Israeli law of Return is not an issue of Judaism. It is meant to offer protection and sanctuary to anyone who is being persecuted by an government because that government views them as Jewish.

Then why not pose the question “who will make a good Israeli citizen?” or “who will need protection when the Nazis come to power again?” I seriously doubt that this is the legal standard. Israel is a self-proclaimed Jewish state. It is then a perfectly natural question “who is a Jew?”

And what I’m pointing out here is that, for whatever reason, halacha Jews who profess Jesus as messiah are excluded.

Now we might change the subject to other situations. Let’s ask this question: would a rabbi perform a bar mitzvah for a halacha Jew who professed Jesus to be messiah? I’m betting not. Would a Jewish school admit a child from a Messianic Jewish family? I bet not. In most other circumstances Messianic Jews would be even more excluded from Jewish society than in the case of the Law of Return which you, yourself, described as overly permissive.

 

[Kaninchen]

Show me the error of my ways!

You’d have to know more.

 

[Kaninchen]

And what I’m pointing out here is that, for whatever reason, halacha Jews who profess Jesus as messiah are excluded.

Now we might change the subject to other situations. Let’s ask this question: would a rabbi perform a bar mitzvah for a halacha Jew who professed Jesus to be messiah? I’m betting not. Would a Jewish school admit a child from a Messianic Jewish family? I bet not. In most other circumstances Messianic Jews would be even more excluded from Jewish society than in the case of the Law of Return which you, yourself, described as overly permissive.

The problem exists only in the way in which it’s set up to be a problem ‘halakhah Jew who professed Jesus to be messiah’ is an apostate.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

You’d have to know more.

I’m inviting you to educate me.

The problem exists only in the way in which it’s set up to be a problem ‘halakhah Jew who professed Jesus to be messiah’ is an apostate.

Huh?!

 

[mimsy]

Pardon my jumping into an established conversation, but in looking through the past few pages (and browsing through wikipedia) I ran across this quote:

Although some Messianic Jews are ethnically Jewish, and argue that Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism,[10] the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of Messianism as a form of Judaism,[11][12] and both Christians and Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.[13] Messianic belief in the divinity of Jesus is seen by the great majority of Christians and by Judaism as being the defining distinction between Christianity and Judaism.[11][13][14] This is also the opinion of the Supreme Court of Israel which ruled that the Law of Return should treat ethnically Jewish individuals who convert to Messianic Judaism the same way it treats Jews who convert to Christianity.[15] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Jews

Compare that to the quote above -

On April 16, 2008, the Supreme Court of Israel ruled in a case brought by a number of people with Jewish fathers and grandfathers whose applications for citizenship had been rejected on the grounds that they were Messianic Jews. The argument was made by the applicants that they had never been Jews according to halakha, and were not therefore excluded by the conversion clause. This argument was upheld in the ruling,[9][10] and the government agreed to reprocess their applications.

• and it seems fairly clear that these Messianic Jews were not arguing that they should be considered Jewish by Jews - they were arguing that they were non-Jews with enough Jewish ancestry to allow them to live in Israel under the law of return.

The “conversion clause” excludes all those who, themselves, convert to a different religion (in this case Messianic Judaism); because these particular individuals were not themselves converts, but the descendants of converts, they were never considered halakhically Jewish and therefore could get in based on ancestry, not based on religion.

Basically the point (and the heart of the problem) is that Jewishness is defined not just as a religion, but also/or as an ethnic identity. A Jewish atheist is perfectly acceptable as a Jew, in a way that a Catholic atheist just isn’t acceptable as a Catholic.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Welcome to the discussion, you are certainly welcome here.

Basically the point (and the heart of the problem) is that Jewishness is defined not just as a religion, but also/or as an ethnic identity. A Jewish atheist is perfectly acceptable as a Jew, in a way that a Catholic atheist just isn’t acceptable as a Catholic.

This is absolutely right. The question of who is a Jew is complicated because it is a confluence of ethnicity, religion, and nationality. Things were much simpler with the Jews were a wandering tribe.

Pardon my jumping into an established conversation, but in looking through the past few pages (and browsing through wikipedia) I ran across this quote: Compare that to the quote above - - and it seems fairly clear that these Messianic Jews were not arguing that they should be considered Jewish by Jews - they were arguing that they were non-Jews with enough Jewish ancestry to allow them to live in Israel under the law of return.

The “conversion clause” excludes all those who, themselves, convert to a different religion (in this case Messianic Judaism); because these particular individuals were not themselves converts, but the descendants of converts, they were never considered halakhically Jewish and therefore could get in based on ancestry, not based on religion.

Bear in mind that there were two critical decisions described in the wikipedia page, one in 1989 which said, basically, that if you claim to be a Messianic Jew but you were previously a halakha Jew, you are no longer a halakha Jew, in contrast to the situation of an orthodox Jew who becomes a Reform Jew or an atheist. This decision was pretty straighforward.

Then, in 2008, you have this decision where non-halakha Jews converted to Messianic Jews and then claimed a right to return. Note that in both quotations, the court did not order that they be admitted. It only recognized that the previous rule did not cover them and ordered that their applications be reconsidered in light of that fact. It would be strange, indeed, if, ultimately, non-halakha Messianic Jews were given preference over halakha Messianic Jews.

The quote you provided does at least explain the court’s reasoning. Apparently it is belief in the divinity of Jesus that the court relied upon in its original decision to make the distinction.

Interestingly, the same wiki article that you cited includes this: “Some small offshoots exist outside the fringe of the movement which deny Jesus’s divinity entirely.” It will be interesting to see how they are treated.

 

[Splinker]

I think this thread has been pretty played out.

Messianic Jews who did were not jews before converting, but had a jewish relative, can avail themselves of the law of return

The law is meant to protect those who would be persecuted because thier host country considers them jews. This is why the law is over-inclusive. It is not concerned – does not even pretend to be concerned – with whether a person is actually jewish.

Hebrew Catholics are Catholics. They are not Jews. Certainly, they are not practicing judaism. Nor do they claim to be. The Church recognizes that they are catholics. It does not state they are Jews. Jews, Catholics and Hebrew Catholics all agree. They are Catholic.

My last word on the matter.
Enjoy.

 

[Steven_John]

I think this thread has been pretty played out.

I dont think so, de railed sure. i did not chose the question well. I was interested in the similarity and differences between Messianics and Catholics. Only a little has been discussed but some good urls have been offered.

It was kool to learn of Hebrew Catholics though it was not my question.

I would not say i enjoyed you posts here but I thank G-d for His goodness in your offerings.

Shalom

I pray you and yours be blessed and guided as youes submit to Him.

 

[KathleenGee]

About the Hebrew Catholics, for us as fellow believers, I think it most important we know about them…they are our other half.

I think a number of people explained well the Messianic Jews for myself…and lately the difficulties in the issue of Jewish identity in Israel. I think some of that and its complexities are more an issue outside our faith tradition, but it necessary as well to give more light on the various takes on Jews and Christians.

Thank you!

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Messianic Jews who did were not jews before converting, but had a jewish relative, can avail themselves of the law of return

That remains to be seen. According to wikipedia, the applications have simply been returned for reconsideration.

The law is meant to protect those who would be persecuted because thier host country considers them jews. This is why the law is over-inclusive. It is not concerned – does not even pretend to be concerned – with whether a person is actually jewish.

It is obviously not so “over-inclusive” as to allow hallacha Jews who convert to Messianic Judaism to return to Israel. For whatever reason those Jews are not welcome in Israel. And the only test involved is a matter of faith.

Hebrew Catholics are Catholics. They are not Jews. Certainly, they are not practicing judaism. Nor do they claim to be. The Church recognizes that they are catholics. It does not state they are Jews. Jews, Catholics and Hebrew Catholics all agree. They are Catholic.

This, though, presuposes that Catholicism and Judaism are mutually exclusive categories. Historically, Catholics (i.e. first and second century Chrisitians) were virtually all Jews and there are those (e.g. Messianic Jews) who claim that Jewish Christians continued to keep the Torah law. Christians did not leave Judaism, they were forced out by a combination of events.

All Catholics claim to follow Yaweh’s commandments to mankind. Catholics and Jews simply disagree on what those commandments are with Catholics giving central prominance to Jesus (and to Paul’s interpretation) and Jews rejecting his teachings.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I was interested in the similarity and differences between Messianics and Catholics.

Generally speaking, Messianic Jews both believe that Jesus was messiah and divine and also that God is not done with the Jews and that they must continue to keep the Torah Law. Hebrew Catholics are a useful point of comparison because they are Jewish, like Messianic Jews, but they do not keep the Torah.

Personally, I am fascinated with the Messianic Judaism movement because I believe that Christianity lost something in the schism with Judaism. Paul was just one Pharisee and look what he contributed. Imagine what Christianity would be if more Pharisees had followed Jesus.

 

[KathleenGee]

Someone came on another post and said the true believers were Hebrew…so may be that is why the Jewish Catholics call themselves Hebrew Catholic.

But their ancesters came from Israel…I tend to think Jewishness both as an ethnic identity as well as heir to salvation history whether or not they believe in God.

Yes, the ‘Jewish Identity’ on the Hebrew Catholic web page does get into that…

So rather for us Catholics, it is more correct to say then that our roots are Hebrew??? than use the term Jewish??

Whatever is right and appropriate…

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Someone came on another post and said the true believers were Hebrew…so may be that is why the Jewish Catholics call themselves Hebrew Catholic. But their ancesters came from Israel…I tend to think Jewishness both as an ethnic identity as well as heir to salvation history whether or not they believe in God. Yes, the ‘Jewish Identity’ on the Hebrew Catholic web page does get into that…
So rather for us Catholics, it is more correct to say then that our roots are Hebrew??? than use the term Jewish?? Whatever is right and appropriate…

This is actually an interesting point. Sometimes a name is just a name, but maybe not in this case. The term “Jew” is historically intertwined with the tribe of Judah which was the last tribe conqured (the kingdom of Judah) in the first temple period and the tribe that centralized ritual sacrifice in Jerusalem (along with a smattering of refugees from the northern kingdom of Israel).

The term Hebrew is older and broader encompasing all descendants of Israel (at least).

The question that might be posed is whether Christianity/Catholicism draws upon the greater history and, perhaps, challenges some of the religious innovations of the second temple period that was dominated by the tribe of Judah, i.e., the Jews.

One area where this might be the case is the oral torah. That was a product of the second temple period. In other words, the oral torah is Jewish, not Hebrew. Christians/Catholics generally understand the oral torah to be the traditions that Jesus criticized as unnecessarily burdensome.

 

[Javl]

Quoted by Splinker:
Hebrew Catholics are Catholics. They are not Jews. Certainly, they are not practicing judaism. Nor do they claim to be. The Church recognizes that they are catholics. It does not state they are Jews. Jews, Catholics and Hebrew Catholics all agree. They are Catholic.

I disagree. The Church states that they are Jews. They are not denied their ethnic or cultural identity. For further proof www.hebrewcatholic.org

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, agree with Javl here that they are Jews…and the comment how Catholics look at Judah, etc.

I read some more points about the Hebrews…they were the ones who kept their hearts and faith open to God…it makes me feel bad to also think that Jews said the ones who died in the Holocaust were the devout Jews, so religious and loving God and then have to endure that…so sad.

God came to the poor in Bethlehem…such poverty…but isn’t it the beginning of grace and good things?? I read somewhere that it was basically the nurturing Shephardic Jews who believed in Jesus and the Judeans were the rich and powerful and well educated…

With that thought, I then think of the Palestinian Christians. This Maronite priest told me these people were descendents of the original Jewish believers that also intermarried others in time…what a tradition…and to remain and endure there in all they have to for 2,000 years…but now are leaving by force…sad for them.

Lord bless all people who seek and love you, especially those who suffer the most.

 

[Javl]

Might I ask of any of the Jewish posters what is the Jewish objection to recognizing and accepting Jesus as the Messiah? I am curious to know. Thank You.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Splinker]

I disagree. The Church states that they are Jews. They are not denied their ethnic or cultural identity. For further proof www.hebrewcatholic.org

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

The site and the Church itself clearly states that they are Catholic. That they preserve their culture doesn’t change that.

 

[Splinker]

Might I ask of any of the Jewish posters what is the Jewish objection to recognizing and accepting Jesus as the Messiah? I am curious to know. Thank You.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Well, why would a christian object to acknowleding that Jesus is not God?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Splinker

While you evaded the question asked, let me answer yours - and, then maybe you can come back and answer the previous question…

Well, why would a christian object to acknowleding that Jesus is not God?

Here are a couple of reasons you may want to consider:

1.) The Old Testament has numerous references the identify the coming of Christ - with this being the Christmas Season - we have had numerous readings from the OT doing just that.

2.) The New Testament picks up where the OT left off - for example, Herod - a Jewish ruler - is told by the Magi that there is a new born King of the Jews - and Herod goes to the Jewish elders and they tell Herod where Christ is to be born! And, would you believe it, that is just what happened. The sorrow of the mothers who had their male infant and todlers slaughtered at Herod’s order was identified in the OT.

3.) The flight of the Holy Family to Egypt - and their return was identified in the OT … but, then story gets far more interesting.

4.) Christ performs not only physical miracles (calming the storming sea, healing the sick, curing the blind and deaf, raising the dead) but, also spiritual miracles (forgiving sin, providing His Own Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity to us in the form of what once was common bread and wine).

5.) Christ teaches with His Own Authority - and not like the Scribes and Pharisees. This by itself was noteworthy because no one had heard such an approach like this before.

6.) Finally, Christ was very clear that He came to this world to die for our sins - AND that He would rise on the 3rd day. This represented a very serious threat to the Jewish leaders of the time - if He did this - they would be out of a job! So, while they were instrumental in having Pilot crucify Christ - they were directly responsible for having gurads posted at the Tomb… because Pilot refused to do it. These guards all knew that falling asleep on guard duty was an automatic death sentence - so they were quite awake for the Resurrection.

I submit that there is evidence that Christ claimed to be the Son of God and proved it with the many miracles that He worked, with the teachings that He provided - but, mostly with the Church that He founded on Peter that has withstood the attacks of Hell for the past 2,000 years.

Now, it is your turn.

God bless

 

[graceandglory]

Do we have a Messianic Jewish expert in the forums? My best friend and her husband “converted” to some brand of Messianic Judaism/Christianity and Zola Levitt is their authority. They no longer worship on Sundays, and since their “congregation” split up over pastoral arguments (as goes so many protestant churches) they have not even attended any church for half a year.

My heart is breaking for my best friend and her husband. They are the closest friends I have. Several years ago we all visited some Passover Seder meals, ever searching for the perfect Church. I converted to Catholicism, and I feel so grounded in my faith, but I feel they are still wandering, trying to invent a perfect blend, while in the meanwhile don’t even have a place of worship and are so outside of orthodoxy it makes me sad.

This is near and dear to my heart.