Messianic Jews Vs Catholics

[tqualey]

Hi, Graceandglory,

Yours was a sad post to read. The reality is that it is painful to see friends experience pain - especially, when we have a good idea about what it is that they are going through.

Do we have a Messianic Jewish expert in the forums? My best friend and her husband “converted” to some brand of Messianic Judaism/Christianity and Zola Levitt is their authority. They no longer worship on Sundays, and since their “congregation” split up over pastoral arguments (as goes so many protestant churches) they have not even attended any church for half a year.

My heart is breaking for my best friend and her husband. They are the closest friends I have. Several years ago we all visited some Passover Seder meals, ever searching for the perfect Church. I converted to Catholicism, and I feel so grounded in my faith, but I feel they are still wandering, trying to invent a perfect blend, while in the meanwhile don’t even have a place of worship and are so outside of orthodoxy it makes me sad.

This is near and dear to my heart.

You really do have a big job ahead of you here - with the Grace of God, to be the kind of Catholic that gives such a positive example that people want to get closer to Christ by joining His Chruch! Unless, I am really off base here… my suggestion would be to pray for this Grace so that you can give the needed example to all whom you meet.

God bless

 

[Kaninchen]

Might I ask of any of the Jewish posters what is the Jewish objection to recognizing and accepting Jesus as the Messiah? I am curious to know. Thank You.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

We’ve had the ‘Why Jews don’t believe in Jesus?’ question many, many times - four times in a week recently, for example. Rather than (yet again) ask the (very few) Jewish posters here, why not use the CAF search facility or even google ‘Why Jews don’t believe in Jesus?’

 

[Javl]

Do we have a Messianic Jewish expert in the forums? My best friend and her husband “converted” to some brand of Messianic Judaism/Christianity and Zola Levitt is their authority. They no longer worship on Sundays, and since their “congregation” split up over pastoral arguments (as goes so many protestant churches) they have not even attended any church for half a year.

My heart is breaking for my best friend and her husband. They are the closest friends I have. Several years ago we all visited some Passover Seder meals, ever searching for the perfect Church. I converted to Catholicism, and I feel so grounded in my faith, but I feel they are still wandering, trying to invent a perfect blend, while in the meanwhile don’t even have a place of worship and are so outside of orthodoxy it makes me sad.

This is near and dear to my heart.

That is sad. Can you get them to contact www.hebrewcatholic.org? I am sure that the Association of Hebrew Catholics can help them without giving up their heritage or identity.
God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

We’ve had the ‘Why Jews don’t believe in Jesus?’ question many, many times - four times in a week recently, for example. Rather than (yet again) ask the (very few) Jewish posters here, why not use the CAF search facility or even google ‘Why Jews don’t believe in Jesus?’

Thank you for your reply. Truthfully, I have never bothered to find out or look it up before, but I will this time. I apologize for both my laxity and ignorance.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Might I ask of any of the Jewish posters what is the Jewish objection to recognizing and accepting Jesus as the Messiah? I am curious to know. Thank You.

The best and most complete answer that I have seen came from Klinghoffer in his book, Why the Jews Rejected Jesus. He provides a remarkably fair and thorough treatment of the question.

There are two main points to keep in mind. Firsty, when we speak of “the Jews” rejecting Jesus, what we really are referring to is a specific segment of second temple Israel. Very many Jews, perhaps even a majority, accepted Jesus as the messiah. For the most part, these Jews were from the lower levels of Israeli society and diaspora Jews. They were not the learned Jews. These Jews who accepted Jesus as messiah probably intermarried with gentiles and so lost their Jewish identity as the Church became numerically dominated by gentiles.

The other, somewhat related point, to consider is that the learned Jews who rejected Jesus were expecting someone very different. In particular, they were expecting a political liberator, someone who would restore the Davidic Israel. Jesus didn’t do this, ergo, he was not the messiah. Bar Khoba tried to do this so he was embraced as a messiah. He failed, though, and nobody since has come along who has met the political criteria.

The question for Jews is, where is the messiah if not Jesus? Many, perhaps, most Jews would rather give up on the messiah concept altogether than admit their mistake.

Christians, on the other hand, are left to wonder why God would seemingly trick so many into a mistaken expectation. The Christian interpretation of prophecy is more strained than the Jewish. Klinghoffer shows, to my satisfaction, that the Jews who rejected Jesus were more faithful to OT prophecy.

 

[graceandglory]

That is sad. Can you get them to contact www.hebrewcatholic.org? I am sure that the Association of Hebrew Catholics can help them without giving up their heritage or identity.
God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

But they aren’t Jewish.

 

[Javl]

The best and most complete answer that I have seen came from Klinghoffer in his book, Why the Jews Rejected Jesus. He provides a remarkably fair and thorough treatment of the question.

There are two main points to keep in mind. Firsty, when we speak of “the Jews” rejecting Jesus, what we really are referring to is a specific segment of second temple Israel. Very many Jews, perhaps even a majority, accepted Jesus as the messiah. For the most part, these Jews were from the lower levels of Israeli society and diaspora Jews. They were not the learned Jews. These Jews who accepted Jesus as messiah probably intermarried with gentiles and so lost their Jewish identity as the Church became numerically dominated by gentiles.

The other, somewhat related point, to consider is that the learned Jews who rejected Jesus were expecting someone very different. In particular, they were expecting a political liberator, someone who would restore the Davidic Israel. Jesus didn’t do this, ergo, he was not the messiah. Bar Khoba tried to do this so he was embraced as a messiah. He failed, though, and nobody since has come along who has met the political criteria.

The question for Jews is, where is the messiah if not Jesus? Many, perhaps, most Jews would rather give up on the messiah concept altogether than admit their mistake.

Christians, on the other hand, are left to wonder why God would seemingly trick so many into a mistaken expectation. The Christian interpretation of prophecy is more strained than the Jewish. Klinghoffer shows, to my satisfaction, that the Jews who rejected Jesus were more faithful to OT prophecy.

Thank you Bubbba for your explanation. It is the most complete one that I have heard. I
understand fully ( I must get that book by Klinghoffer ).

Might is say now that an Orthodox Jew that I know who is a student of the law ( The Tanakh and the Torah ) had in his studies come to the "irrevocable conclusion " that Jesus fulfills all the prophesies of scripture. He says that the Jews expected a political Messiah, but that is not what was prophesied. Because of his studies he has accepted Jesus as the Messiah promised in scripture and has become Catholic because that is the Church founded by Jesus.

He has not given up his Jewishness because Jesus and the Apostles never did, and that Jews that accept Jesus also should not stop becoming Jews. He still wears the Kippah and the tzitzi, and still recites all Hebrew prayers in worship of God. Also, he still considers himself Orthodox and is continuing his studies.

I, although a Gentile and a Catholic, also use Hebrew prayers in my wordhip of God. The Catholic liturgy is based on and bathed in Hebrew tradition. If you attend a Catholic Mass, of any rite, you will recognize much of Judaism in it.

Also, I would add that the late Catholic Archbishop of Paris was Jewish, Jean-Marie Aaron Lustiger. He had said many times that " I was born Jewish and so I remain, even if that’s unacceptable to many. For me, the vocation of Israel is bringing light to the goyim. That’s my hope and I believe that Christianity is the means for achieving it."

“I am not leaving you. I am not passing into the enemy camp. I’m becoming what I am. I am not stopping being a Jew…just the opposite. I am discovering a way of living it.”

“I am a Cardinal, a Jew, and the son of an immigrant.”

It is impossible for a Christian to be a Christian…without the Jewish people.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Kaninchen]

It is impossible for a Christian to be a Christian…without the Jewish people.

Perhaps you might bother yourself with finding out why we Jews didn’t and don’t believe a word of it rather than just reading what some Christian thinks about it?

Or not, depends I suppose.

 

[Javl]

Perhaps you might bother yourself with finding out why we Jews didn’t and don’t believe a word of it rather than just reading what some Christian thinks about it?

Or not, depends I suppose.

Then, might I ask, what is your reason? Why don’t you believe it? I would be most interested to know. Thank you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Kaninchen]

Then, might I ask, what is your reason? Why don’t you believe it? I would be most interested to know. Thank you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Follow the links in this post and you’ll find some of my posts on the subject.

 

[Splinker]

The best and most complete answer that I have seen came from Klinghoffer in his book, Why the Jews Rejected Jesus. He provides a remarkably fair and thorough treatment of the question.

There are two main points to keep in mind. Firsty, when we speak of “the Jews” rejecting Jesus, what we really are referring to is a specific segment of second temple Israel. Very many Jews, perhaps even a majority, accepted Jesus as the messiah. For the most part, these Jews were from the lower levels of Israeli society and diaspora Jews. They were not the learned Jews. These Jews who accepted Jesus as messiah probably intermarried with gentiles and so lost their Jewish identity as the Church became numerically dominated by gentiles.

The other, somewhat related point, to consider is that the learned Jews who rejected Jesus were expecting someone very different. In particular, they were expecting a political liberator, someone who would restore the Davidic Israel. Jesus didn’t do this, ergo, he was not the messiah. Bar Khoba tried to do this so he was embraced as a messiah. He failed, though, and nobody since has come along who has met the political criteria.

The question for Jews is, where is the messiah if not Jesus? Many, perhaps, most Jews would rather give up on the messiah concept altogether than admit their mistake.

Christians, on the other hand, are left to wonder why God would seemingly trick so many into a mistaken expectation. The Christian interpretation of prophecy is more strained than the Jewish. Klinghoffer shows, to my satisfaction, that the Jews who rejected Jesus were more faithful to OT prophecy.

FIrst, I agree that Klinghoffer’s book gives a good explanation. Nowhere in his book is it suggested that many – and certainly not a majority of jews – accepted Jesus as the messiah. Quite the opposite. Klinghoffer, rightly in my opinion, states that it is unlikely that very many Jews even heard of Jesus during his life time. And he certainly doesn’t say anything to suggest Jew’s accepted Jesus as the messiah in any large numbers.

 

[Michael_Forrest]

I would recommend reading Salvation is From the Jews by Roy Schoeman. Roy - a former Harvard professor, spent most of his life as a committed practitioner of rabbinic Judaism. He studied under what he describes as “three of the most distinguished Rabbis in contemporary American Jewish life” - Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg, Rabbi Arthur Green and Rabbi Shlomo Carlbach. But he later entered the New Covenant in Y’shua through baptism.

He covers many interesting topics, including his own conversion story, the interplay between the Gentiles and the Jews, and he discusses some interesting facts - including those revolving around what he considers to be some unintentional testimony given by the Talmud on behalf of Christian belief.

He also wrote Honey from the Rock, which relates the stories of 16 Jews who “find the sweetness of Christ.”

Here is a link to his website:

salvationisfromthejews.com/

Here are the links to the books at Amazon, if anyone is interested:

amazon.com/Salvation-Jews-Role-Judaism-History/dp/089870975X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262111794&sr=8-1

amazon.com/Honey-Rock-Sixteen-Sweetness-Christ/dp/1586171151/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

The Association of Hebrew Catholics also has much to offer:

hebrewcatholic.org/

 

[Splinker]

Friedlander’s book “Why the Jews rejected Jesus,” expressly states, btw, the accepted belief that most of the Jews that did convert, and their numbers were very small compared to the gentiles that converted, were Hellenized Jews that were more secular than religious. And these numbers were a very small part of the Jewish population. If Christianity had been more successful in getting Jews to “convert” in the begining, it is likely they would not have expanded their reach to the gentiles. That’s my opinion and one that is shared by Klinghoffer in his book.

 

[Michael_Forrest]

If Christianity had been more successful in getting Jews to “convert” in the begining, it is likely they would not have expanded their reach to the gentiles. That’s my opinion and one that is shared by Klinghoffer in his book.

An opinion which would seem to have been borrowed from that well-known Jewish student of the great Rabbi Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) - St. Paul:

Romans 11:

I say then, have they so stumbled, that they should fall? God forbid. But by their offence, salvation is come to the Gentiles

, that they may be emulous of them. 12 Now if the offence of them be the riches of the world, and the diminution of them, the riches of the Gentiles; how much more the fulness of them? 13 For I say to you, Gentiles: as long indeed as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I will honour my ministry, 14 If, by any means, I may provoke to emulation them who are my flesh, and may save some of them. 15 For if the loss of them be the reconciliation of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?…

21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, were grafted into the good olive tree; how much more shall they that are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in.

26 And so all Israel should be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 And this is to them my covenant: when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are most dear for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as you also in times past did not believe God, but now have obtained mercy, through their unbelief;31 So these also now have not believed, for your mercy, that they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he may have mercy on all. 33 O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsellor?

 

[KathleenGee]

The reference to the Jews being more Hellenistic…I heard a reference at the priest’s homily this past year that their faith?..or their fidelity to the Law?..I can’t remember the exact word…but he did say that Judaism was at the point of collapse when Christ’s revelation came.

Yes, I read Roy Shoeman’s book and it is most highly recommended for Gentiles to read to help us understand sensitivities in relating to Jews as well. It helped me alot.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

FIrst, I agree that Klinghoffer’s book gives a good explanation. Nowhere in his book is it suggested that many – and certainly not a majority of jews – accepted Jesus as the messiah. Quite the opposite. Klinghoffer, rightly in my opinion, states that it is unlikely that very many Jews even heard of Jesus during his life time. And he certainly doesn’t say anything to suggest Jew’s accepted Jesus as the messiah in any large numbers.

Note, first, that the question is not how many Jews accepted Jesus as the messiah (or even heard of him) in his lifetime. The claim that I (and other before me) make is that, particularly upon his ressurrection, Christianity spread like wildfire within Judaism.

In fact, Klinghoffer makes the, I think correct, point that the learned Jews were the ones who rejected Jesus. I don’t think he goes so far as to concede that the majority of Jews did, ultimately, accept Jesus as messiah but that is certainly a view consistent with his arguments given that only a small minority of Jews were learned in the sense he describes.

There is no direct evidence one way or another but much indirect evidence in favor of this view of history.

 

[Splinker]

Note, first, that the question is not how many Jews accepted Jesus as the messiah (or even heard of him) in his lifetime. The claim that I (and other before me) make is that, particularly upon his ressurrection, Christianity spread like wildfire within Judaism.

In fact, Klinghoffer makes the, I think correct, point that the learned Jews were the ones who rejected Jesus. I don’t think he goes so far as to concede that the majority of second temple Jews did, ultimately, accept Jesus as messiah but that is certainly a view consistent with his arguments given that only a small minority of Jews were learned in the sense he describes.

There is no direct evidence one way or another but much indirect evidence in favor of this view of history.

That’s a completely unsupported claim, contrary to the facts and opinions set forth in Klinghoffer’s books and at odds with what I’ve read from biblical scholars

.Responding to the ancient charge of deicide, Jewish Forward columnist David Klinghoffer argues maybe a half of one percent of the first-century Jews heard of Jesus, first or second-hand. And most of them would not have been aware of the possible gravity of accepting or rejecting Jesus as messiah. If the Jews of his day rejected Jesus, it was as messiah and divine. First, there were other exorcists, miracle workers, Pharisees and would-be messiahs at the time so Jesus’ claims were not so unusual. Second, as messiah, Jesus didn’t raise an army, fight the Romans, return Jewish exiles or do anything a King Messiah was supposed to do. The Hebrew Scriptures set out conditions by which one would know the messiah-and Jesus failed to meet those conditions in Jewish eyes.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Might is say now that an Orthodox Jew that I know who is a student of the law ( The Tanakh and the Torah ) had in his studies come to the "irrevocable conclusion " that Jesus fulfills all the prophesies of scripture. He says that the Jews expected a political Messiah, but that is not what was prophesied. Because of his studies he has accepted Jesus as the Messiah promised in scripture and has become Catholic because that is the Church founded by Jesus.

This is only half the question, though. You really need two interrelated explanations here: first, you must explain why how prophecy predicts Jesus as Messiah. There is such an interpretation, of course, it is the orthorox catholic interpretation. But you must also explain why the most learned Jews opted for the political interpretation. Were they stupid? Evil? I’m glad for your friends realization but ask him to now explain why he saw what so many others dd not.

He has not given up his Jewishness because Jesus and the Apostles never did, and that Jews that accept Jesus also should not stop becoming Jews. He still wears the Kippah and the tzitzi, and still recites all Hebrew prayers in worship of God. Also, he still considers himself Orthodox and is continuing his studies.

This is essentially Messianic Judaism. I think it is very interesting and it would be interesting to follow him through Jewish society and see how he is treated. Judging from the previous discussions the critical question will be: does he accept Jesus as divine or merely a human? This seems to be the hard line between Christianity and Judaism.

I, although a Gentile and a Catholic, also use Hebrew prayers in my wordhip of God. The Catholic liturgy is based on and bathed in Hebrew tradition. If you attend a Catholic Mass, of any rite, you will recognize much of Judaism in it.

Absolutely. But for various reasons it is less Jewish than one might imagine. The interesting question is why? Why, for example, do we celebrate Easter on a different date than Passover? Why do we hold mass on Sunday? (Messianic Jews claim that the ressurection actually fell on a Saturday.)

Also, I would add that the late Catholic Archbishop of Paris was Jewish, Jean-Marie Aaron Lustiger. He had said many times that " I was born Jewish and so I remain, even if that’s unacceptable to many. For me, the vocation of Israel is bringing light to the goyim. That’s my hope and I believe that Christianity is the means for achieving it."

On the one hand, I completely agree with this and disagree with the various posters who claim that Catholics are not (and never claim to be) Jewish. On the other hand, the key element missing is perpetuity. There are no second-generation Jewish Catholics.

It is impossible for a Christian to be a Christian…without the Jewish people.

Historically, this is certainly true. But here we come to the paradox of the question who is a Jew. According to orthodox catholicism gentiles who accepted Jesus were grafted onto the tree of Israel and those who rejected Jesus were pruned away. According to that view, in some sense at least, catholics are Jewish and orthodox Jews are not. But even the most orthodox Catholics do not call themselves Jews.

Do the blood descendants of Israel who have rejected Jesus still have a special place in salvation history or is Judaism simply a fact of history only?

 

[Splinker]

After Paul reconceptualized Jesus and Christianity became the dominant Western religion, Jews continued to reject him. What really rankles Jews, says Klinghoffer, is the presumed incarnation of Jesus. The next hardest thing for a Jew to accept is the denial of God’s covenant with Israel and the commandments at Sinai. After all, the covenant (and the commandments) is the reason why God brought the Jews out of Egypt to meet Him.
In our post-modern age, the Holocaust has been a sticking-point. The case against Jesus is not as much against him as against the ethical heritage of those who follow him.
byaaronhoward.com/index.php?action=details&record=41

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

That’s a completely unsupported claim, contrary to the facts and opinions set forth in Klinghoffer’s books and at odds with what I’ve read from biblical scholars.

It is, in fact, a claim with a great deal of support, though not from Klinghoffer’s book which does not address the history of Judaism and Christianity in the longer term.

The most interesting evidence is based on numbers. Historians estimate that Jews constituted up to 10% of Roman society including both those living in the province of Judea and those in the diaspora. After the bar kohba revolt Jews were negligable in number. Where did they all go? The wars and resulting famines would have killed some but not that many. The most logical conclusion is that they became Christians and no longer counted themselves as Jewish for purposes of the special tax levied on Jews by the Romans.

Other evidence comes indirectly from the history of Akiba and the bar khoba revolt. Why did Akiba annoint Bar Khoba as messiah? In order to cast Christians out of Judaism and staunch the movement. (Christians had their messiah, of course, and would not follow another which made them traitors.) Similarly there are many elements of Rabbinical Judaism, itself, that are best explained in terms of immunizing Judaism from Christian influence (e.g. the rejection of the LXX OT).