Messianic Judaism

[waxwing]

This is part of a post I posted in another thread, didn’t really go to far within that thread though

I know people that have started attending a Messianic Jewish Service, I don’t know much about them and after doing a brief search looks like a Protestant Denomination that embraces and celebrates its Jewish heritage with both Jew and Gentile folks attending. Anyone Jewish or otherwise have any info of them, how does Judaism, Catholicism and Protestanism view this group?

 

[meltzerboy]

This is part of a post I posted in another thread, didn’t really go to far within that thread though

I know people that have started attending a Messianic Jewish Service, I don’t know much about them and after doing a brief search looks like a Protestant Denomination that embraces and celebrates its Jewish heritage with both Jew and Gentile folks attending. Anyone Jewish or otherwise have any info of them, how does Judaism, Catholicism and Protestanism view this group?

According to my understanding, Messianic Judaism is a curious mixture of Christian (mainly Evangelical Protestant with perhaps a touch of Catholicism as well) and Jewish traditions, and it varies somewhat from one congregation to the next. Essentially, most Messianic Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah and the son of G-d, and one of the persons of the Triune G-d. However, some deny that Jesus is the son of G-d while still believing He was the Messiah and that He will return. At the same time, most Jews in the movement follow Torah Law, including the rituals, ceremonies, and the Sabbath, whereas Gentiles–as in mainstream Judaism–are required only to follow the Noahide Law. However, both Jews and Gentiles also believe in Church doctrine based on Apostolic tradition. The codified oral tradition of Talmud complements the Torah and the Church for many, but is secondary. For mainstream Judaism–including Reform Judaism as well as Torah (Orthodox) and Conservative Judaism–Messianic Judaism is not really Judaism at all. (Of course, for many observant Torah Jews, both Conservative and Reform Judaism movements are also heresy.) The reason why Messianic Judaism is outside the pale for mostly all Jews is that it violates two of the most important principles of faith as set down by Maimonides: firstly, the absolute Unity of G-d as One unique spiritual entity; and secondly, the belief that the Messiah is to be a human being, not the son of G-d, and that Jesus did not fulfill the basic requirements of who the Messiah is prophesied to be and what he is to accomplish.

 

[waxwing]

According to my understanding, Messianic Judaism is a curious mixture of Christian (mainly Evangelical Protestant with perhaps a touch of Catholicism as well) and Jewish traditions, and it varies somewhat from one congregation to the next. Essentially, most Messianic Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah and the son of G-d, and one of the persons of the Triune G-d. However, some deny that Jesus is the son of G-d while still believing He was the Messiah and that He will return. At the same time, most Jews in the movement follow Torah Law, including the rituals, ceremonies, and the Sabbath, whereas Gentiles–as in mainstream Judaism–are required only to follow the Noahide Law. However, both Jews and Gentiles also believe in Church doctrine based on Apostolic tradition. The codified oral tradition of Talmud complements the Torah and the Church for many, but is secondary. For mainstream Judaism–including Reform Judaism as well as Torah (Orthodox) and Conservative Judaism–Messianic Judaism is not really Judaism at all. (Of course, for many observant Torah Jews, both Conservative and Reform Judaism movements are also heresy.) The reason why Messianic Judaism is outside the pale for mostly all Jews is that it violates two of the most important principles of faith as set down by Maimonides: firstly, the absolute Unity of G-d as One unique spiritual entity; and secondly, the belief that the Messiah is to be a human being, not the son of G-d, and that Jesus did not fulfill the basic requirements of who the Messiah is prophesied to be and what he is to accomplish.

Thanks for this explanation, now this question may be best suited for someone within Messianic Judaism but will ask anyways …would they consider themselves as Protestant? They are not Catholic, not Orthodox, and considering Protestantism openness or flexibility as to who is in this branch that would be the only remaining spot.

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

Thanks for this explanation, now this question may be best suited for someone within Messianic Judaism but will ask anyways …would they consider themselves as Protestant? They are not Catholic, not Orthodox, and considering Protestantism openness or flexibility as to who is in this branch that would be the only remaining spot.

I am a Messianic Jew and most of us consider the question of Domination irrelevant

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

To further answer your question most messianic Jews consider what you would call Christianity to be the final revelation of Judaism. If pressed to pigeonhole us into a category most messianic Jews would call themselves Jews

 

[sojo]

My brother and sister-in-law are Jews for Jesus, which is a type of Messianic Jew, I believe. They are firmly protestant, evangelical. They do celebrate some Jewish rituals like the Passover, but they do it from a Christian perspective and invite non-Jews to the ceremony. My brother and I were born to a Jewish mother and Catholic father (but he returned from WWII an atheist after a devout childhood and youth). His wife was Jewish and practicing through her teen years and then had one of those protestant “born again” experiences.

I am a Jewish convert to Catholicism - I consider myself Jewish as my mother is Jewish, and there is that blood link. I consider Jesus the Messiah. I don’t regularly practice any Jewish rituals anymore except for an occasional candle for the dead, and I’m planning to try and attend the Passover next year with a group that is composed of families with disabled children and is open and welcoming to non-Jews and returning Jews with disabled children. The Passover is no longer “required” for me as I believe Jesus is the Lord and the Messiah, and the old laws are completed. But there is no harm, and great good, especially for the young, to experience the basis for the Passover of our Lord now completed in the Eucharist. I have always love the Passover. I think it was Jesus calling me to Himself all those years ago.

I believe my son is Jewish by birth, Catholic by baptism and upbringing. I want him to know about Jewish history, the holocaust and be proud that he his a blood descendent of Abraham. I am a Hebrew by blood and birth - that cannot be removed. I am a Christian by enormous grace, undeserved and forever cherished till I can thank Our Lord in person, God-willing.

Its all pretty complicated, no???

 

[waxwing]

My brother and sister-in-law are Jews for Jesus, which is a type of Messianic Jew, I believe. They are firmly protestant, evangelical. They do celebrate some Jewish rituals like the Passover, but they do it from a Christian perspective and invite non-Jews to the ceremony. My brother and I were born to a Jewish mother and Catholic father (but he returned from WWII an atheist after a devout childhood and youth). His wife was Jewish and practicing through her teen years and then had one of those protestant “born again” experiences.

I am a Jewish convert to Catholicism - I consider myself Jewish as my mother is Jewish, and there is that blood link. I consider Jesus the Messiah. I don’t regularly practice any Jewish rituals anymore except for an occasional candle for the dead, and I’m planning to try and attend the Passover next year with a group that is composed of families with disabled children and is open and welcoming to non-Jews and returning Jews with disabled children. The Passover is no longer “required” for me as I believe Jesus is the Lord and the Messiah, and the old laws are completed. But there is no harm, and great good, especially for the young, to experience the basis for the Passover of our Lord now completed in the Eucharist. I have always love the Passover. I think it was Jesus calling me to Himself all those years ago.

I believe my son is Jewish by birth, Catholic by baptism and upbringing. I want him to know about Jewish history, the holocaust and be proud that he his a blood descendent of Abraham. I am a Hebrew by blood and birth - that cannot be removed. I am a Christian by enormous grace, undeserved and forever cherished till I can thank Our Lord in person, God-willing.

Its all pretty complicated, no???

Yes I can make sense of someone who is a Jewish Catholic or a Methodist who happens to be Jewish. But the Messianic’s don’t seem to fit nicely in the these “boxes” I have, from my very limited research and a poster here I sensed a reluctance to be placed in the Protestant Box… a category I thought they would find a home in.

 

[waxwing]

To further answer your question most messianic Jews consider what you would call Christianity to be the final revelation of Judaism. If pressed to pigeonhole us into a category most messianic Jews would call themselves Jews

Thanks, would you then consider Christians to be just fellow brothers and sisters within Christianity?

 

[Bezant]

This is part of a post I posted in another thread, didn’t really go to far within that thread though

I know people that have started attending a Messianic Jewish Service, I don’t know much about them and after doing a brief search looks like a Protestant Denomination that embraces and celebrates its Jewish heritage with both Jew and Gentile folks attending. Anyone Jewish or otherwise have any info of them, how does Judaism, Catholicism and Protestanism view this group?

I don’t think there’s a unified and codified Catholic view specifically on MJ anymore than there is on Quakers (touch wood). There are too many branches of Protestantism for there to be a policy.

From my conversations and interactions with Jews, the movement’s considered Christian (or at least non-Jewish), though most don’t care about MJ in and of itself.

On the other hand, Messianic Jewish missionaries often go out of their way to pester Jews with their evangelism, earning the disdain of some Jews.

Driving Bear also said that most Messianic Jews consider themselves Jews. I also notice that most Messianic Jews who insist on their definition of ‘Jewishness’ who are not halakhically Jewish often annoy Jews.

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

Thanks, would you then consider Christians to be just fellow brothers and sisters within Christianity?

No we would consider what you think of as Christians to be fellow brothers and sisters of Judaism.

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

To further add I would suggest that you read again the 11th chapter of Romans.

In that chapter Paul describes this answer to question this way

the jews are a natural branch of an olive tree and the gentiles are a wild branch, the gentile by Jesus were grafted on the natural olive tree

hope this helps

 

[waxwing]

No we would consider what you think of as Christians to be fellow brothers and sisters of Judaism.

Thanks, I was a bit in the fog on that point and this does help.

 

[Tonga]

We Jews look at the Messianic faith (it is not Judaism) as a sect of Christianity.
It holds the same basic tenets as Christianity, and most of it’s adherents are not Jews.

If they just stuck to celebrating the Biblical holidays and shabbat in a manner of their
own observance, I wouldn’t have a problem with them. But they copy so much from
Judaism and from Jewish culture, that it is a big problem…using our rituals in an
inappropriate way, presenting the appearance of being Jews when they are not.

Some in the movement call themselves “Jewish” when they are not according to Jewish law, claim they are “grafted in” and there fore Jewish, or go through phony conversions to “Messianic” Judaism and claim that it makes them a Jew.

 

[Tonga]

would they consider themselves as Protestant?

The ones I am familiar with-who are mostly gentile-dislike being called Christian.

 

[Tonga]

in and of itself

.
But they are causing problems by coming into Jewish communities and passing themselves off as Jews or trying to have conversions to Judaism by deceit (failing to
admit they believe in Jesus). Of course, I am speaking of the gentile Messianics, who make up the bulk of the Messiaanic movement.

. I also notice that most Messianic Jews who insist on their definition of ‘Jewishness’ who are not halakhically Jewish often annoy Jews.

Big time. The vast majority of Messianic “Jews” I see post on line are not halachaly
Jewish. They can have some pretty strange ideas of what makes one a Jew.

 

[LOCO]

My brother and sister-in-law are Jews for Jesus, which is a type of Messianic Jew, I believe. They are firmly protestant, evangelical. They do celebrate some Jewish rituals like the Passover, but they do it from a Christian perspective and invite non-Jews to the ceremony. My brother and I were born to a Jewish mother and Catholic father (but he returned from WWII an atheist after a devout childhood and youth). His wife was Jewish and practicing through her teen years and then had one of those protestant “born again” experiences.

I am a Jewish convert to Catholicism - I consider myself Jewish as my mother is Jewish, and there is that blood link. I consider Jesus the Messiah. I don’t regularly practice any Jewish rituals anymore except for an occasional candle for the dead, and I’m planning to try and attend the Passover next year with a group that is composed of families with disabled children and is open and welcoming to non-Jews and returning Jews with disabled children. The Passover is no longer “required” for me as I believe Jesus is the Lord and the Messiah, and the old laws are completed. But there is no harm, and great good, especially for the young, to experience the basis for the Passover of our Lord now completed in the Eucharist. I have always love the Passover. I think it was Jesus calling me to Himself all those years ago.

I believe my son is Jewish by birth, Catholic by baptism and upbringing. I want him to know about Jewish history, the holocaust and be proud that he his a blood descendent of Abraham. I am a Hebrew by blood and birth - that cannot be removed. I am a Christian by enormous grace, undeserved and forever cherished till I can thank Our Lord in person, God-willing.

Its all pretty complicated, no???

Not really all that complicated. The Catholic Church has no ‘issues’ with Jews who willingly convert but wish to continue to practise their Jewish religious traditions. Catholicism is an extension of Judaism, a fulfilment of OT prophecy. It is from the Jewish perspective that converts are not allowed or discouraged to continue attending/performing Jewish religious traditions once converted.

In any event, the Catholic Church has a policy of not actively seeking to ‘convert’ Jews to Catholicism.

POPE BENEDICT XVI clearly suggests the church should not be targeting Jews for conversion efforts.

“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. The historical duration of this “proper time,” Benedict says, cannot be calculated.

In terms of the proper Christian attitude in the meantime, Benedict approvingly quotes Cistercian abbess and Biblical writer Hildegard Brem: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.”

ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/church-should-not-pursue-conversion-jews-pope-says

 

[Bezant]

Hi

But they are causing problems by coming into Jewish communities and passing themselves off as Jews or trying to have conversions to Judaism by deceit (failing to
admit they believe in Jesus). Of course, I am speaking of the gentile Messianics, who make up the bulk of the Messiaanic movement.

Yes, I agree.

What I meant, however was that most Jews I’ve spoken with don’t care if Gentile Messianics keep Shabbat or kashrut, believe in Jesus’ Messiah-ship, etc.

The problem for them, is when these MJs take their convictions and try to pass them off as “real” Judaism.

Big time. The vast majority of Messianic “Jews” I see post on line are not halachaly
Jewish. They can have some pretty strange ideas of what makes one a Jew.

There’s actually some interesting articles about non-Jewish Messianics trying to make aaliyah, and insisting that they automatically qualify under the Right of Return.

 

[Bezant]

We Jews look at the Messianic faith (it is not Judaism) as a sect of Christianity.
Tonga;7873861:

It holds the same basic tenets as Christianity, and most of it’s adherents are not Jews.

If they just stuck to celebrating the Biblical holidays and shabbat in a manner of their
own observance, I wouldn’t have a problem with them. But they copy so much from
Judaism and from Jewish culture, that it is a big problem…using our rituals in an
inappropriate way, presenting the appearance of being Jews when they are not.

Some in the movement call themselves “Jewish” when they are not according to Jewish law, claim they are “grafted in” and there fore Jewish, or go through phony conversions to “Messianic” Judaism and claim that it makes them a Jew.

I shouldn’t call myself an expert on MJ, but from what I know of it and have been exposed to, this is my personal opinion.

Frankly, it seems that they’re trying to practice in a framework neither constructed for them nor by them, and therefore appear extremely awkward.

As far as whether MJ is Christianity; theologically, it seems most/many congregations are, but in the Messianic services I’ve attended I’ve never felt comfortable praying there, even as a Christian.

I found some of the songs and prayers a little deceiving, some of the scriptural interpretations were remarkably shallow and lacking the depth I’ve read in other Protestant, Jewish, and Catholic commentaries. At the congregation I visited, the pastor enjoined everyone to come for the Passover and Purim celebrations, making no mention of Easter.

I think between Christianity and Judaism, Jesus is a deal breaker, and there is no more “half-way” between them than being “half-way” pregnant.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi

Yes, I agree.

What I meant, however was that most Jews I’ve spoken with don’t care if Gentile Messianics keep Shabbat or kashrut, believe in Jesus’ Messiah-ship, etc.

The problem for them, is when these MJs take their convictions and try to pass them off as “real” Judaism.

There’s actually some interesting articles about non-Jewish Messianics trying to make aaliyah, and insisting that they automatically qualify under the Right of Return.

The Jews you spoke with must have been either Conservative or Reform, like me. Orthodox Jews do care if Gentile Messianics keep Shabbat or kashrut, because by law they are not allowed to do so until they convert to Judaism. It’s similar to non-Catholics participating in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

 

[Bezant]

The Jews you spoke with must have been either Conservative or Reform, like me. Orthodox Jews do care if Gentile Messianics keep Shabbat or kashrut, because by law they are not allowed to do so until they convert to Judaism. It’s similar to non-Catholics participating in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

Ok…I see.