Messianic Judaism

[Victorious]

My mistake; I was sure they believed baptism was mandatory for salvation (hence the name “Baptists”). I know there is a denomination that believes that, but I guess I misidentified it.

Well…that would be the Catholic Church. “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’” (John 3:5) Baptism, which corresponds to this [Noah’s flood], now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1 Peter 3:21-22) Baptism confers sanctifying grace and the full remission of both eternal and temporal penalties for sin. In other words, a newly baptized soul is so pure that if the person died at that moment, he would go straight to heaven – do not pass Purgatory, do not collect $200.00. Of course, we spoil our baptismal innocence by personal sin, and it’s even possible to sin so grievously as to lose sanctifying grace; but fortunately, we have the sacrament of confession as a remedy.

There are exceptions to the requirement of baptism – for example, the Holy Innocents, and the just who preceded Jesus, like the Old Testament Patriarchs, and those who receive the grace of baptism by desire or by blood. The Church also teaches that, in ways known only to God, salvation is possible for those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel (in which category I would personally put babies who die unbaptized, though we have not been given certainty as to their fate). But these exceptions do not dispense with the need for sanctifying grace in order to be saved; rather, the sanctifying grace gets around the unavailability of baptism by finding some other channel in which to flow to the soul.

Even so, however, we are not to presume on God’s grace; the only way we can know for certain that someone has recieved sanctifying grace is through baptism. God has given us the Sacraments precisely to accommodate our senses, so that we may have the certainty we crave in matters of such critical importance.

 

[JohnPaul0]

My small effort here to make some sense /peace - ( in this season of Peace and truth ) - of the interesting argument , as to how the women could have come to the tomb ’ after ’ the sabbath …well, if the women had set out right after the Sabbath from their home , may be in this case possibly Bethany - a good enough distance from Calvary, and walked the long and courageous walk ( like many of our Jewish brethren ) they may not have arrived at The Tomb, till day hreak …

Hope The Rabbi and all of us will have a Blessed NewYear and Feast of Mother Of God - a day that can be even more special for our jewish brethren …and also the joy of the comaprison and contrast with the queen mothers of O.T with The Mother !

Hope too , one day soon , our Church will be enriched by the hauntingly beautiful way of the jewish style of singing the psalms and such !

Georgess,

I appreciate the intent of your post, but, don’t worry, it’s an amicable discussion.

As honestly as I can be, I will list the reasons, in order of motivation, why I responded to Rabbi Bernay’s comments:

1. I happened to be online when he posted (with two teenagers in the house, Dad doesn’t get that opportunity much!)
2. It was a subject toward which I thought I could contribute.
3. I enjoy doing it.
4. Rabbi Bernay, after all, did post teachings on this Catholic site which are very different from Catholic teaching, so a response was required for the sake of Catholics who might be confused.
5. Rabbi Bernay himself needs to have these beliefs challenged.
6. As a pastor, and I honestly do respect him for spending his life in the service of G_d, he is particularly responsble for the souls of his flock (*cf *Heb 13:17) :bible1:

I have to say that, so far, he hasn’t provided much basis for his teachings, so I am concerned about reasons 5 & 6.

-JohnPaul

 

[Georgess]

Georgess,

I appreciate the intent of your post, but, don’t worry, it’s an amicable discussion.

-JohnPaul

Apologies here , if needed ;

My post ,as usual, was meant for mostly those of ’ baby faith ’ , the silent readers of these forums , who might have been fascinated , as I was , by the discussion - esp. regarding the sabbath connection ; and grateful to the Rabbi and others , for bringing it up ;yet did not want any one to be troubled by his implication that somehow The Church, The Bride did not get it right !

Hence , it was my effort to share the joy of realising that the Sabbath connection and the time of Resurrection, on Sun early morning goes very well together .

It was not at all meant as attempt to correct you ; and you are right about the discussions being polite and scholarly .

Just realised too, that Bethany is one of the few places in Scripture ( from my limited readings ) where its distance from Jerusalem is mentioned (John11 -18 ) !

My gratitude again - had not thought of previously why the women were there at that hour and now it makes sense - that in His didvine plan , they , who waited for sabbath to be over, to prepare for the anointing , arriving at the right time !

 

[ricmat]

This is a fascinating thread (for me, a Catholic), and I hope it continues!

You can’t understand Christianity without understanding Israel and Judaism. The bible, after all, is 90% Old Testament (I didn’t actually do a page count). Judaism is the great mass of the pyramid on which the Christian capstone is placed.

Even if there is disagreement on some issues, I DEEPLY appreciate the involvement of RabbiAdamBernay and Valke2 on this thread (and others).

This is a thread where we can all learn something if we pay attention

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Adam

Are you Jewish by birth (Jewish mother and father like my wife) or are you Jewish by choice?

If you are not part of the traditional Jewish faith, what institution granted you the title of “Rabbi?”

My experience with MJs has been those individuals (God bless them) who have qualms about traditional Christianity, the Catholic Church in all its Rites, and dance around the seemingly contradictory passages in Hebrews and Romans and the Gospels (ones that Protestants spin in their own personal way) into believing St Paul created a new Jewish Faith fulfilled in the teachings and revelation of Jesus the Messiah (“Christ”).

Unfortunately, this is wishful thinking like the recent (more so than the self-styled and self-proclaimed MJs) trend of non-denominational “Orthodox Christian” churches looking like ersatz Greek and Coptic buildings (I visited the one in Riverside, California and was amused at their cafeteria-style ‘orthodoxy’) and claim to be the churches Jesus meant to grow among His followers after his death and Resurrection.

There are many great JEWISH websites dismantling the MJ viewpoints from a strictly Jewish intrepretation of the Tanakh and Torah. Messianic Jews, like Islam and Mormonism, is yet another attempt to avoid the Church, the Catholic Church, and establish their own faith.

 

[Valke2]

Adam

Are you Jewish by birth (Jewish mother and father like my wife) or are you Jewish by choice?

If you are not part of the traditional Jewish faith, what institution granted you the title of “Rabbi?”

.

I’m betting that he got his Masters of Theology in Rabbinic Studies from the Messianic Bible Institute Yeshiva.

 

[ricmat]

Yes and no. Not all of the sacrifices were sin sacrifices, and the only sacrifice Yeshua was the final one of was the sin sacrifices. There is still a need for the other sacrifices, and the other functions of the Temple.

“In the coming Messianic Age, all sacrifices will cease, but the thank offering [Todah] will never cease.” From the Pesiqta, quoted in Harmut Gese “Biblical Theology”.

The Eucharist is the Todah sacrifice.

All of the above taken from “Catholic for a Reason III, Scripture and the Mystery of the Mass”, page 68.

 

[BrianH]

Adam

Are you Jewish by birth (Jewish mother and father like my wife) or are you Jewish by choice?

If you are not part of the traditional Jewish faith, what institution granted you the title of “Rabbi?”

My experience with MJs has been those individuals (God bless them) who have qualms about traditional Christianity, the Catholic Church in all its Rites, and dance around the seemingly contradictory passages in Hebrews and Romans and the Gospels (ones that Protestants spin in their own personal way) into believing St Paul created a new Jewish Faith fulfilled in the teachings and revelation of Jesus the Messiah (“Christ”).

Unfortunately, this is wishful thinking like the recent (more so than the self-styled and self-proclaimed MJs) trend of non-denominational “Orthodox Christian” churches looking like ersatz Greek and Coptic buildings (I visited the one in Riverside, California and was amused at their cafeteria-style ‘orthodoxy’) and claim to be the churches Jesus meant to grow among His followers after his death and Resurrection.

There are many great JEWISH websites dismantling the MJ viewpoints from a strictly Jewish intrepretation of the Tanakh and Torah. Messianic Jews, like Islam and Mormonism, is yet another attempt to avoid the Church, the Catholic Church, and establish their own faith.

“Great” websites dismantling the belief that Jesus is the messiah? I hope other Catholics do not share your praise of such things. Disturbing.

 

[Valke2]

“In the coming Messianic Age, all sacrifices will cease, but the thank offering [Todah] will never cease.” From the Pesiqta, quoted in Harmut Gese “Biblical Theology”.

The Eucharist is the Todah sacrifice.

All of the above taken from “Catholic for a Reason III, Scripture and the Mystery of the Mass”, page 68.

I thought the Eucharist was supposed to be the flesh of Jesus.

 

[ricmat]

I thought the Eucharist was supposed to be the flesh of Jesus.

The CC believes that the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus. When Catholics celebrate the Mass, we are joined with Jesus at both the last supper, when Jesus inaugurated the Eucharist, and on Calvary for the crucifixion (when Jesus as the perfect lamb became the perfect and last sacrifice for sin).

And at Jesus’ ascention, the second phase of the Todah sacrifice occured/occurs - representing the high priest actually offering the slain lamb to God the Father.

The Eucharist is both a sacrament, which gives us grace, and is the final perfect and eternal sacrifice.

Some others can probably explain this better than I can.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

“Great” websites dismantling the belief that Jesus is the messiah? I hope other Catholics do not share your praise of such things. Disturbing.

Brian,

These websites use MJ ‘logic’ and ‘reasoning’ from JEWISH sources. There is NO discussion vis-a-vis the NT and Christian traditions and beliefs.

Not disturbing. Dismantling to the MJ viewpoint that they are the one and true church Jesus founded.

 

[Alexius]

rtconstant: Now that’s an enteresting question. I really had never thought of that possibility before. Are there Jews who accept that Jesus was the messiah but not necessarily the divine?

Yes! In the very early Church it was a heresy called Ebionism. The majority of its followers (Known in Hebrew as the Ebyonim) were Jews who maintained that Christ is the Messiah, but that he is not the divine Son of God - the God-man or Incarnate Christ. Hence no Trinity. See the following links:newadvent.org/cathen/05242c.htm

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Valke2]

I’m betting that he got his Masters of Theology in Rabbinic Studies from the Messianic Bible Institute Yeshiva.

This institution accepts anyone over 18 years of age. So I’m assuming it will give the title of “Rabbi” to anyone over 18 years of age who completes its online courses. It’s primary (only?) purpose is to prepare people for a messianic ministry. From what I’ve seen of the site, it hardly embraces jewish theology. Specifically, like Christainity, it believes Jesus is God in the flesh. (This answer’s my earlier question asking if we were talking about Jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah but not Divine – the answer being no).
It teaches that Jesus’ ressurection is the promise of eterenal life. That’s fine for Christians, but why attached “judaism” to it?

And its definition of “Torah” is the Christian bible. Again, fine for christians, but why pretend it has something to do with Judaism? Possibly because they believe all the commandments are still in effect. But that seems more of an indoctrination technique (see how observant we are) than having anything to do with Judaism.

Although the university claims to be accredited by Transworld Accrediting Commission, this is not a State sanctioned or State recognized accrediting agency, nor recognized by the U.S. Department of Education as a crediting agency.

The Yeshiva does not mee the academic standards of the State of VA. Their degrees can credits cannot therefore be applied to legitmate accredited universities.

btw, if you are interested in an online education, you can check out the credentials at ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/Students/closedschool/accred.html#T

 

[ricmat]

…From what I’ve seen of the site, it hardly embraces jewish theology. Specifically, like Christainity, it believes Jesus is God in the flesh. (This answer’s my earlier question asking if we were talking about Jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah but not Divine – the answer being no).
It teaches that Jesus’ ressurection is the promise of eterenal life. That’s fine for Christians, but why attached “judaism” to it?

And its definition of “Torah” is the Christian bible. Again, fine for christians, but why pretend it has something to do with Judaism?

Valke2 - I know very little about Messianic Judaism (and also know little about how much you know about Christianity), so consider that in my response below. Also - I admit that my response is not well formulated, I’m just jotting things down as they come to mind.

**If **Christ indeed was the long awaited Messiah, it certainly “has something to do with Judaism.” Wouldn’t Judaism itself need to be updated or change somehow in response to this? The arrival of the Messiah would be the fulfillment of Judaism (which is the standard Christian teaching).

That some Jews would agree that Christ is the Messiah doesn’t strike me as odd. Nor would it strike me as odd that if they suddenly came to that conclusion today, that they’d sort of go off and become “messianic Jews.”

The messianic Jew thing may be some kind of ploy (you know more about it than I do), but based on your comments so far it’s not clear to me that it is.

And on a separate subject, perhaps you could clarify something for me - I really don’t know the answer to this. If Jesus was not the Messiah, then who was? With no prophets since 500BC (?) how long do you expect to wait? At this point in time, if someone arose and said “I’m the Messiah” how could you ever prove lineage to David, or the patriarchs, etc?

 

[Valke2]

**If **Christ indeed was the long awaited Messiah, it certainly “has something to do with Judaism.” Wouldn’t Judaism itself need to be updated or change somehow in response to this? The arrival of the Messiah would be the fulfillment of Judaism (which is the standard Christian teaching).

If the assumption is that Jesus was the Messiah, and not that Jesus was God, then you can argue that it has to do with Judaism. But if you are teaching that Jesus was God in the flesh, you are teaching a concept that is outside the scope and intent of Judaism and therefore, you are really in a whole other religion.

That some Jews would agree that Christ is the Messiah doesn’t strike me as odd. Nor would it strike me as odd that if they suddenly came to that conclusion today, that they’d sort of go off and become “messianic Jews.”

Pretty much the same answer. TO say he is the Messiah is different than saying he is God in the flesh. The Messianic university that rabbi Adam whatshisname graduated from clearly states the belief that jesus is God in the flesh.

The messianic Jew thing may be some kind of ploy (you know more about it than I do), but based on your comments so far it’s not clear to me that it is.

The vast majority of messianic Jews are concerned with converting Jews to the belief that Jesus is God. They get most of their funding from Christian organizations (not the Catholic Church), and thier ministries are focused primarily on jews. I’ll try to dig up some more information on this in a bit. I’ll avoid Jews for Jesus, as that organization is clearly and without a doubt a Christian funded movement with the intent of converting Jews. I’ll look into the Messianic Bible Institute and see where its money is coming from, if I can.

And on a separate subject, perhaps you could clarify something for me - I really don’t know the answer to this. If Jesus was not the Messiah, then who was? With no prophets since 500BC (?) how long do you expect to wait? At this point in time, if someone arose and said “I’m the Messiah” how could you ever prove lineage to David, or the patriarchs, etc?

How it will be proven, I don’t know. I only know it would be proven. Perhaps if the other requirements are fullfilled, his statement regarding his lineage will be sufficient.

 

[Valke2]

THe MBI"s mission statement is to" facilitate the Messianic Jewish Restoration until all Israel is saved**; to the Jew first **and also to the Gentile or non-Jew."

So it seems, like Jews for Jesus (who’s two leaders are baptist ministers), the MIB’s goal is focused primarily on getting Jews to accept that Jesus is God.

They also state that they center on the Jewish return to Jesus. They seem to sprinkle key terms in Hebrew ('t’shuva for return, “shema” for hear/listen). Quite frankly, reading the website makes it sound, to me, like a long sales pitch.

The leader of the MBI is not, I think, a (originally) jew. he was ordained and pastored in four churches.

It is also difficult to figure out what the MBI means by rabbi. It does not appear as if anyone involved with the institute was ordained as a rabbi by any institution outside the MBI. In other words, they have not been ordained as rabbis by any accepted jewish movement, i.e. orthodox jews, conservative jews, or even reform jews. (I say this knowing full well that there is a certain amount of “infighting” between these three types of judaism when it comes to things like ordaining rabbis).

The website goes to some length in trying to tie the founder of the MIB to Jewish roots (grandmother on his father’s side was jewish, he had a second cousin who was an orthodox rabbi. For a Jew, these credentials set off all kinds of warning bells.

I can’t, of course make any conclusion as to his sincerity but I can assume, given the history of messianic judaism, that the movement is theologically closer to christanity than judaism and its stated motive is to convince jews that Jesus is God.

 

[ricmat]

If the assumption is that Jesus was the Messiah, and not that Jesus was God, then you can argue that it has to do with Judaism. But if you are teaching that Jesus was God in the flesh, you are teaching a concept that is outside the scope and intent of Judaism and therefore, you are really in a whole other religion.

Ahh…that clears it up for me. Sort of.

This is going off-topic, but what do Jews see as the scope and intent of Judaism?

In a nutshell, (IMHO) Christians see the intent of Judaism as being the key instrument of mankind’s salvation / reconciliation with God, and the scope of this intent as all of humanity.

Do Jews see the Talmud / OT as actually “prohibiting” the Messiah as being God / Son of God? Or does the interpretation just not come to the conclusion that the Messiah would be God / Son of God?

 

[Valke2]

Ahh…that clears it up for me. Sort of.

This is going off-topic, but what do Jews see as the scope and intent of Judaism?

In a nutshell, (IMHO) Christians see the intent of Judaism as being the key instrument of mankind’s salvation / reconciliation with God, and the scope of this intent as all of humanity.

Do Jews see the Talmud / OT as actually “prohibiting” the Messiah as being God / Son of God? Or does the interpretation just not come to the conclusion that the Messiah would be God / Son of God?

Jews do not believe that God has or ever will appear as a man. That God has no corporeal body, no physical being. So a messiah who is God would be outside of the theology. If you look at Jewish history regarding false messiahs, you see that those who followed them never viewed them as God, but as military/political leaders.

 

[JohnPaul0]

Valke2 - I know very little about Messianic Judaism

ric and Valke,

I just came across this impressively detailed description of Messianic Judiasm. It’s in booklet 2 (The Messianic Jewish Movement, An Introduction) at the link below:

tjcii.org/books.html

Also see my new post about the Jerusalem Council II, which comes from the same main website.

From what our friend Rabbi Bernay was saying, especially about Torah, he’s a full product of the American version of Messianic Jews.

 

[ricmat]

Jews do not believe that God has or ever will appear as a man. That God has no corporeal body, no physical being. So a messiah who is God would be outside of the theology. If you look at Jewish history regarding false messiahs, you see that those who followed them never viewed them as God, but as military/political leaders.

I’m out of my league here, but there’s some information in the book we use to teach confirmation classes at my church - and I’m stealing this idea from that book

Here’s a quote from Matthew 22:41-45, which refers to Psalm 110.

*While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus questioned them, saying, “What is your opinion about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They replied, “David’s.”

He said to them, “How, then, does David, inspired by the Spirit, call him ‘lord,’ saying:
‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet”’?
If David calls him ‘lord,’ how can he be his son?”

*The Catholic interpretation of this is that David can call his son “lord” because David’s son (in the flesh) is also the Son of God.

How might Jews today answer that question?