Metaphysics and evolution of consciousness

[Love4All]

I have heard it referred to as non-theist. As a creator God isn’t considered to my knowledge nor denied it’s really not theistic or atheistic. As christianity teaches us to bear our sorrows and grin. The Buddha looked at people being born, living in suffering and sickness and dying. He said none of these things need to be and that all suffering is self induced by ignorance understanding that our sorrows are self induced ignorance and can be stopped sounds better to me than endure your sorrows and bear it. Even if we can lay them at the cross IMO.

The reality, though, is that some of our suffering results from our ignorance, and some results from nature (note: fallen nature), and some, finally, is inflicted on us by the malice of others. Now certainly, meditation, thinking, contemplating our situation, such as is recommended in Buddhism, can be helpful in alleviating those sufferings that we inflict on ourselves in our ignorance. But clearly, ignorance is not the root of all suffering. The Buddha was simply mistaken about that. There is no ignorance whatsoever in the Word Incarnate, and He suffered.

 

[Michael19682]

Consciousness is NOT “really the indwelling of God.” That position is a rather succinct statement of what I call Atmanism.

 

[Love4All]

Love4All;10534735:

Consciousness is NOT “really the indwelling of God.” That position is a rather succinct statement of what I call Atmanism.

Consciousness is a property of a spirit created in God’s image. Image is not the same thing as original. God is God, and creatures are creatures. There is no part of a creature that “is God.”

The indwelling of God is the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Since God is One, where the Holy Spirit is, there is the Father and the Son also. So consciousness is not the indwelling of God, it is the image of God, and the indwelling of God is given us in our Baptism, and can be lost through mortal sin, and is restored in case it is lost, through Reconciliation.

Reconciliation takes place automatically through the mercy of God and the working of the holy Spirit. You should simply feel a need for forgiveness or explicitly ask for it. Isn’t this why those who repel the holy spirit with blasphemy become guilty of an everlasting sin? They push away forgiveness itself. Such people are not doomed, of course, because God can reverse anything, including our evil.

No, Reconciliation does not take place “automatically” in any sense. First, “Reconciliation” as a term refers specifically to the Sacrament, that you have to go to a priest to receive. Secondly, while it is true that the state of grace can be obtained by an Act of Contrition, such an Act, first of all, in the case of mortal sin, MUST include the intention to receive the Sacrament, and additionally, is required. The requirement is not of the specific prayer (The Act of Contrition) per se, but of the spirit of that prayer, i.e., true contrition is required to be restored to grace, it does not happen “automatically.”

Isn’t this why those who repel the holy spirit with blasphemy become guilty of an everlasting sin? They push away forgiveness itself. Such people are not doomed, of course, because God can reverse anything, including our evil.

No. Anyone who commits the Sin against the Holy Ghost is doomed, or damned as they usually say. God can, but will not contradict a final free-will decision. The Sin against the Holy Ghost is the final rejection of all graces of contrition for sin. There is no going back on a final decision.

Love4All;10534735:

The idea that there is a mystery of “how” the “spirit stays lodged in the body” is, again, apparently a nod to Atmanism. There is no “spirit” to “stay lodged.” That would be an Atman, and that is not the Christian concept of the soul. Rather, a human being IS a physical spirit, just as an angel is a pure spirit. Certainly, all of Creation is mysterious, but there is no particular mystery of “how” the human spirit and the human body remain united. It is, rather, a mystery, that we die. And we are informed by the Church that death is a punishment for sin, but also, that death is the means of our Redemption from sin.

The AUM or OM is called the “mystic syllable” in Hinduism. It is conceived of as identical with the Original Vibration from which the entire universe arose. Thus, it can be thought of philosophically as identical with the Logos, the Word. Hindus use it as a tool for meditation, to unite themselves with the Original Word.

The advantage of Catholicism is that, first, the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us, and after that, the Word made Flesh took Bread and commanded us, “take and eat, for this is My Body.”

Thus, that which the Hindus represent as AUM, i.e. the actual Reality they are representing, became Flesh and then became Bread for us to eat. That is why Catholicism is in every way superior to Hinduism.

I don’t know why our society dwells so fervently on a doomed position. Simply owning a thing temporally, or analyzing it from all angles, does not make it yours. Witness some of the Christian groups who go around saying they “have” the holy Spirit. Or ask, “Do you “have” Jesus in your life?” It is so obvious that in our material culture such phraseology is offensive. This is the apparent distaste for the word “indweller”. We dwell on things, think that we own them, and get offended that some say God dwells within them – the implication being that since they own their things by dwelling on them, others own God through his dwelling within them. Unenviable spot to be in, one foot on the dock, the other on a moving craft. It’s not my fault that they don’t get both their feet firmly planted on either dock or craft. As for consciousness being God’s image as opposed to his indwelling, consciousness is full knowledge and awareness. Man was not created with this fullness per se; the tree in the middle of the garden held the key to knowledge of good and evil, which, ironically for the serpent, turned out to be the necessary sin of Adam: which in turn shows all of us that we are not fully conscious until we are united with God in heaven. Paul deals with this problem philosophically in his letter to the Romans.

Consciousness is generally thought of as cognitive awareness. We do possess it now. If you are awake, you are conscious.

The Beatific Vision is another thing entirely, it is the Gift, to those in Heaven, of the contemplation of the Blessed Trinity. Surely the souls in heaven have every advantage over us, but that does not mean that we are “not conscious” in this life. You should, in general, call things what they are normally called. Otherwise, it creates confusion.

Even the Beatific Vision is not the consciousness of the one experiencing it. Our consciousness is simply not, and never will be, the same thing as God.

 

[Michael19682]

Love4all,

no, reconciliation does not take place “automatically” in any sense. First, “reconciliation” as a term refers specifically to the sacrament, that you have to go to a priest to receive.

i disagree. Read, or rather, hear, if you are like me and need the priest:
“god, the father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his son has reconciled the world to himself”
jesus died and was resurrected. Reconciliation therefore is done! It has been for some 2 thousand years.

no. Anyone who commits the sin against the holy ghost is doomed, or damned as they usually say. God can, but will not contradict a final free-will decision.

not sure how you know what god will do specific to that sin. Many passages suggest he might be referring to forgiveness in this temporary world. “this age or the age to come”.

the sin against the holy ghost is the final rejection of all graces of contrition for sin. There is no going back on a final decision.

mark gives that saying in the context of accusations of an unclean spirit. You might refer to the other passages on actual unclean spirits in general. One says, “but with god all things are possible”

consciousness is generally thought of as cognitive awareness. We do possess it now. If you are awake, you are conscious.

The beatific vision is another thing entirely, it is the gift, to those in heaven, of the
contemplation of the blessed trinity. Surely the souls in heaven have every advantage over us, but that does not mean that we are “not conscious” in this life.

i meant fully conscious. The highest order of a thing is its definition; that which the subordinates must immitate. Therefore, consciousness of jesus at all times is very close to godhood. Though unrepentant sinners are awake, i wouldn’t call them very conscious. Sartre, though his book on the subject book was banned at one time, tried to show philosophically that consciousness had to be of something. It isn’t empty. Therefore proper consciousness is consciousness (of) god. With influence, it is becoming among people everywhere a synonym for.

you should, in general, call things what they are normally called. Otherwise, it creates confusion.

Even the beatific vision is not the consciousness of the one experiencing it. Our consciousness is simply not, and never will be, the same thing as god

.
The church is yet still the body of christ. Presumably the body has consciousness (of) itself.

 

[Love4All]

Love4all,

i disagree. Read, or rather, hear, if you are like me and need the priest:
“god, the father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his son has reconciled the world to himself”
jesus died and was resurrected. Reconciliation therefore is done! It has been for some 2 thousand years.

This is not a matter for debate, for you to agree or disagree. Catholic Doctrine is that, in the case of mortal sin especially, if so-called “contrition” does not include the desire for the Sacrament, it is not true contrition, and there is no forgiveness of the sin.

It is not sufficient to recall to one’s mind the words of absolution. It is necessary for a priest to speak them after hearing your confession.

not sure how you know what god will do specific to that sin.

Because He says so, in Holy Scripture. The Sin against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. It is an eternal sin.

Eternal sin == Hell.

The church is yet still the body of christ. Presumably the body has consciousness (of) itself.

Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body. We are members of the Body. We are not the Head.

 

[Michael19682]

Because He says so, in Holy Scripture. The Sin against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. It is an eternal sin.

 

[Love4All]

The Sin against the Holy Ghost is the final rejection of all graces of contrition for sin.

 

[Michael19682]

The Sin against the Holy Ghost is the final rejection of all graces of contrition for sin.

Cathechism
107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”​

What do you say “for the sake of our salvation” means?

Mt 19:26

26l Jesus looked at them and said, “For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”​

All things means all things!

Psalm 95

Oh, that today you would hear his voice

8 Do not harden your hearts as at Meribah,

as on the day of Massah in the desert.*​

Did the Holy Spirit through the psalmist write these words to condemn, or to free?

 

[Michael19682]

This is not a matter for debate, for you to agree or disagree. Catholic Doctrine is that, in the case of mortal sin especially, if so-called “contrition” does not include the desire for the Sacrament, it is not true contrition, and there is no forgiveness of the sin.

So in other words, if I have no faith, the sacrifice of Christ Jesus from which the spirit of forgiveness proceeds is void/? Or if there remain unfaithful, unbelievers, the crucifixion never happened?

 

[Love4All]

Cathechism
107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”​

What do you say “for the sake of our salvation” means?

Mt 19:26

26l Jesus looked at them and said, “For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”​

All things means all things!

Psalm 95

Oh, that today you would hear his voice

8 Do not harden your hearts as at Meribah,

as on the day of Massah in the desert.*​

Did the Holy Spirit through the psalmist write these words to condemn, or to free?

Matthew 12:31
Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

I am not making this up.

 

[Love4All]

So in other words, if I have no faith, the sacrifice of Christ Jesus from which the spirit of forgiveness proceeds is void/? Or if there remain unfaithful, unbelievers, the crucifixion never happened?

How are you getting that from, if you have committed a mortal sin you have to go to Confession?

 

[Michael19682]

Matthew 12:31
Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

I am not making this up.

Obviously I’ve read the verse. My point is, if there are any “contradictions” between this verse and the word that God forgives all as in Matthew, also – then where is the truth?

The debate is polarized by only scriptural quotes.

But since that is all you have provided, what is the meaning of “this age or the age to come”?

 

[wittgenstein]

Reincarnation is a delusion (maya). Buddhists take it one giant step further. The idea that I am the same person I was a nano-second ago (reincarnated) is an illusion. That knowledge frees us from the wheel of life and death by making us realize that the ego (a persistent self) is a delusion. One cannot fear death when one knows that there is no self to die.

 

[Michael19682]

Reincarnation is a delusion (maya). Buddhists take it one giant step further. The idea that I am the same person I was a nano-second ago (reincarnated) is an illusion. That knowledge frees us from the wheel of life and death by making us realize that the ego (a persistent self) is a delusion. One cannot fear death when one knows that there is no self to die.

And how do you know that?