Methodism and Catholicism

[RyanBlack]

Do Methodists believe that the bread and wine is turned into the actual body and blood of Christ per the words of John 6? Why would one believe John Wesley’s view some 15 centuries after the Church Christ established taught otherwise?

Methodist beliefs about the Eucharist are all over the place–they include transubstantiation and mere memorial meal, and everything in between. As for John Wesley’s view, it is not the same as what you saw on the UMC webpage. John Wesley, thougn he did not believe in transubsantiation, clearly believed that the believer receives the body and blood of Christ in the consecrated elements.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Do Methodists believe that the bread and wine is turned into the actual body and blood of Christ per the words of John 6? Why would one believe John Wesley’s view some 15 centuries after the Church Christ established taught otherwise?

Methodist beliefs about the Eucharist are all over the place–they include transubstantiation and mere memorial meal, and everything in between. As for John Wesley’s view, it is not the same as what you saw on the UMC webpage. John Wesley, thougn he did not believe in transubsantiation, clearly believed that the believer receives the body and blood of Christ in the consecrated elements.
Begs the question; Is the Methodist church faithful to Wesley?

 

[AbideWithMe]

From the United Methodist website. Link here.

PnP

Begs the question; Is the Methodist church faithful to Wesley?

According to the 43 page document in the link under the subject of Communion, they’re trying hard to return to be faithful to their roots in the church universal. (You can get a feel for that without reading the whole document, so I encourage people to take a look at it for answers straight from the source.)

Edit: It’s under “Sacraments”—“The Lord’s Supper (Communion, Eucharist)”----“Read This Holy Mystery, the UMC official statement on Communion.”

 

[AbideWithMe]

Hello Abide,

I was not trying to be “unfair” as I simply copied and pasted what their website states (I did not look nor have time to read an additional 43 pages). Summarize this for me: Do Methodists believe that the bread and wine is turned into the actual body and blood of Christ per the words of John 6? Why would one believe John Wesley’s view some 15 centuries after the Church Christ established taught otherwise?

In all candor, additionally, women ministers are very problematic both from scripture and Tradition. This is even a more recent invention that modernism has brought forward in the last few years. Only 50 years ago per the link here.

PnP

I didn’t think you were being unfair in a personal way. The little bit you quoted doesn’t represent the UMC belief well, though, so to do justice a person needs to go back to the source…that’s all.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

According to the 43 page document in the link under the subject of Communion, they’re trying hard to return to be faithful to their roots in the church universal. (You can get a feel for that without reading the whole document, so I encourage people to take a look at it for answers straight from the source.)

Edit: It’s under “Sacraments”—“The Lord’s Supper (Communion, Eucharist)”----“Read This Holy Mystery, the UMC official statement on Communion.”

Lutherans/ ELCA are in full communion with Methodists and support efforts to unite the Church as expressed in the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity. Could Methodists ccept from “Conflict to Communion”?
lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf

 

[robwar]

I was raised a Methodist. There are a lot of good men and women in the Methodist Church. I was sad to leave my old church, but in the end, the Methodist Church does not have the fullness of the Christian Faith. Probably most importantly, John Wesley specifically denied the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist.

The belief in the Real Presence is highly documented in early Christian writings. It is truly fundamental to the Christian Faith. I suggest you pick up Jimmy Akin’s The Fathers Know Best. It is a great book that will show you the truth of Catholicism through the Church Fathers. I also suggest you check out Eucharistic Miracles and Eucharistic Phenomena in the Lives of the Saints by Joan Carroll Cruz.

Remember, your local Catholic Parish might not have the most activities, the most fired up members, etc. but it has the fullness of the truth. Our most important duty is to follow God and, in the word’s of the Blessed Mother, “Do whatever He tells you.” John 2.6. He told us to Eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood, and we should! God Bless.

-JMR

I was raised a Methodist too and second everything you have sad. I think the one thing that was so lacking in the Methodist church was authority. While there are many wonderful and nice people, there is no authority and it was an anything goes or as one sees fit. I had a religious ed director that didn’t believe in the virgin birth and then I also knew some very conservative evangelical types, all in the same Church. I think that lack of authority and all the conflicts and conflicting ideas sent me on a journey looking for authority. thankfully the Catholic Church has the authority which was set up by Jesus Himself.

 

[robwar]

Begs the question; Is the Methodist church faithful to Wesley?

If you are speaking of United, I don’t think John Wesley would even recognize the it. If you are speaking of Free Methodists or Wesleyan churches, I think they would be more closer to what John Wesley taught and believed.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Lutherans/ ELCA are in full communion with Methodists and support efforts to unite the Church as expressed in the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity. Could Methodists ccept from “Conflict to Communion”?
lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf

I’ll read that.

I would imagine the UMC belief in the real presence of Christ in Communion, while not believing in transubstantiation, would be a problem.

I grew up, was confirmed, and still retain membership in an Evangelical, early American Methodist church which was originally organized by Jacob Albright to teach southeastern PA Germans in their native tongue. I’m not a UMC member, though, but I think I saw a new one around here–maybe he’ll join in the discussion.

 

[AbideWithMe]

robwar:
If you are speaking of United, I don’t think John Wesley would even recognize the it. If you are speaking of Free Methodists or Wesleyan churches, I think they would be more closer to what John Wesley taught and believed.

I encourage people again to take a look at the UMC document I referenced earlier. It acknowledges some serious failures in teaching, but it looks like they’re really trying to get back to their roots.

 

[Porknpie]

According to the 43 page document in the link under the subject of Communion, they’re trying hard to return to be faithful to their roots in the church universal. (You can get a feel for that without reading the whole document, so I encourage people to take a look at it for answers straight from the source.)

Edit: It’s under “Sacraments”—“The Lord’s Supper (Communion, Eucharist)”----“Read This Holy Mystery, the UMC official statement on Communion.”

Abide,

Based on what you know in the 43 pages, is their description accurate below… does the word “Symbolizes” reflect their belief?

The Lord’s Supper is a holy meal of bread and wine that symbolizes the body and blood of Christ.

Back to the purpose of the thread, Komeeks has to discern the Truth, what was it that Christ taught the apostles and what did the apostles teach their descendants on the subject of not only the Eucharist but also on faith and morals, the Priesthood and more. And where does she go to seek this Truth? The Church, One Holy Catholic and Apostolic has never been confused on his words on the Eucharist. The Body of Christ has been torn by men teaching false beliefs and pulling people away from the Church Christ established. The Evil One especially wants to spread the belief that the meal is a “memorial meal”, symbolic only and that Christ did not established a Church, singular, with seven sacraments by which he gives us grace for our salvation.

PnP

 

[ChrisB103]

Perhaps we should start another thread to discuss the Methodist view of the Lord’s Supper. I wouldn’t want the OP to get bogged down and disheartened by this straying conversation. Hopefully he’ll chime back in soon with some follow up thoughts.

 

[Porknpie]

She not he.

 

[komeeks18]

Sorry I’m just now replying; I’ve been very busy with school and work! Thank you for all of your replies. To answer the question of the my doubts in Catholic theology, my doubts include papal infallibility and moral sin. I just find it hard to believe that if we were to do one wrong thing before we die, but if we don’t make it to confession, that one thing could ruin our entire life’s work and faith in Christ.

 

[robwar]

about the mortal sin part, it isn’t so black and white as you are painting it. Plus if one is unable to get to a priest for confession but would have or had the intention or desire that does count per say. Concerning the pope and papacy, I think for me at least having a clear and final leader was a big attraction. I looked at the chaos I grew up with in UMC as well as what I experienced with non-denominational churches and realize that you have all these different people reading the Bible yet coming up with very different conclusion concerning a number of things. So who is right? There is a very good book by Patrick Madrid called “Pope Fiction”. He is an adult Catholic convert and he deals the Papacy. He has an easy read style and each chapter is a stand alone thought. Concerning papal infallibility, there are a number of misconceptions. It doesn’t mean that the pope is perfect or not a sinner and the Catholic church has had some rather less than perfect popes. But what infallibility means that the Pope by a special charism (gift) of the spirit in the office of the papacy that prevents him from teaching error in faith and morals. Only when the Pope rules “ex Cathedra” (from the throne) the chair of St. Peter is that infallible and that has only been used twice since vatican I which defined papal infallibility. I hope this helps.

 

[jmr_1985]

I just find it hard to believe that if we were to do one wrong thing before we die, but if we don’t make it to confession, that one thing could ruin our entire life’s work and faith in Christ.

As other’s have said, the teaching is more complicated than that. I’m sure others can help you more than I can with the actual teaching of the Church, but I will say the idea of mortal sin can be a difficult concept for someone raised Baptist. So, you are not alone in your struggles with this!. I live in the deep south. So, 80% of my RCIA class members are former Baptists! This was the concept they had the most difficulty with as well. I will say that Methodist do believe that salvation can be lost.

A good book on the topic of sin and salvation is Marcus Grodi’s book What Must I do to Be Saved?. Marcus was a former pastor who believed in “Once Saved Always Saved” before he became Catholic. It’s a cheap book. I think it might help you.

JMR

 

[rfournier103]

Sorry I’m just now replying; I’ve been very busy with school and work! Thank you for all of your replies. To answer the question of the my doubts in Catholic theology, my doubts include papal infallibility and moral sin. I just find it hard to believe that if we were to do one wrong thing before we die, but if we don’t make it to confession, that one thing could ruin our entire life’s work and faith in Christ.

about the mortal sin part, it isn’t so black and white as you are painting it. Plus if one is unable to get to a priest for confession but would have or had the intention or desire that does count per say. Concerning the pope and papacy, I think for me at least having a clear and final leader was a big attraction. I looked at the chaos I grew up with in UMC as well as what I experienced with non-denominational churches and realize that you have all these different people reading the Bible yet coming up with very different conclusion concerning a number of things. So who is right? There is a very good book by Patrick Madrid called “Pope Fiction”. He is an adult Catholic convert and he deals the Papacy. He has an easy read style and each chapter is a stand alone thought. Concerning papal infallibility, there are a number of misconceptions. It doesn’t mean that the pope is perfect or not a sinner and the Catholic church has had some rather less than perfect popes. But what infallibility means that the Pope by a special charism (gift) of the spirit in the office of the papacy that prevents him from teaching error in faith and morals. Only when the Pope rules “ex Cathedra” (from the throne) the chair of St. Peter is that infallible and that has only been used twice since vatican I which defined papal infallibility. I hope this helps.

As other’s have said, the teaching is more complicated than that. I’m sure others can help you more than I can with the actual teaching of the Church, but I will say the idea of mortal sin can be a difficult concept for someone raised Baptist. So, you are not alone in your struggles with this!. I live in the deep south. So, 80% of my RCIA class members are former Baptists! This was the concept they had the most difficulty with as well. I will say that Methodist do believe that salvation can be lost.

A good book on the topic of sin and salvation is Marcus Grodi’s book What Must I do to Be Saved?. Marcus was a former pastor who believed in “Once Saved Always Saved” before he became Catholic. It’s a cheap book. I think it might help you.

JMR

Good afternoon, komeeks. There IS a difference between mortal and venial sin. The passages I look to to give me MY inderstanding of mortal sin is 1 JOHN 5:16-17: If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

Deadly = mortal (ie: a mortal would, mortal combat, etc…)

We as Catholics look to Christ’s Church to define for us what sins fall into what category (see 1 Tim 3:15… The Church is the pillar and ground of truth).

 

[The_Reginator]

komeeks,
This is a good response to consider:

I was raised a Methodist too and second everything you have sad. I think the one thing that was so lacking in the Methodist church was authority. While there are many wonderful and nice people, there is no authority and it was an anything goes or as one sees fit. I had a religious ed director that didn’t believe in the virgin birth and then I also knew some very conservative evangelical types, all in the same Church. I think that lack of authority and all the conflicts and conflicting ideas sent me on a journey looking for authority. thankfully the Catholic Church has the authority which was set up by Jesus Himself.

I grew up an Anglican. The final straw that convinced me that my doubts over, say, the teachings about Mary, were nothing compared to the question of authority. I finally realized that Christ instituted a teaching Church, one that teaches with authority.
In the Anglican tradition it is virtually impossible to know the what the official Anglican teaching is. I was raised in the ‘low church’ which is much different than the ‘high church’.
In the Catholic Church you know what the teachings are. You may not like them, but they do come from the Holy Spirit.

I hope you’re having a blessed Advent,
Reg.

 

[commenter]

archives.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1732

The statement on abortion from the UMC is essentially prochoice. This would be the biggest difference between the UMC and the Catholic Church, or between the UMC and what John Wesley believed. Wesley also regarded birth control itself as immoral.

 

[robwar]

All Christians did until the 1930’s when the Anglican communion issued a statement in support of birth control. Like I said in my earlier posts, I don’t think John Wesley would recognize UMC church of today. Actually, John Wesley was an Anglican priest and didn’t originally set out to start a new denomination.

 

[komeeks18]

about the mortal sin part, it isn’t so black and white as you are painting it. Plus if one is unable to get to a priest for confession but would have or had the intention or desire that does count per say. Concerning the pope and papacy, I think for me at least having a clear and final leader was a big attraction. I looked at the chaos I grew up with in UMC as well as what I experienced with non-denominational churches and realize that you have all these different people reading the Bible yet coming up with very different conclusion concerning a number of things. So who is right? There is a very good book by Patrick Madrid called “Pope Fiction”. He is an adult Catholic convert and he deals the Papacy. He has an easy read style and each chapter is a stand alone thought. Concerning papal infallibility, there are a number of misconceptions. It doesn’t mean that the pope is perfect or not a sinner and the Catholic church has had some rather less than perfect popes. But what infallibility means that the Pope by a special charism (gift) of the spirit in the office of the papacy that prevents him from teaching error in faith and morals. Only when the Pope rules “ex Cathedra” (from the throne) the chair of St. Peter is that infallible and that has only been used twice since vatican I which defined papal infallibility. I hope this helps.

Thank you for this explanation!

As other’s have said, the teaching is more complicated than that. I’m sure others can help you more than I can with the actual teaching of the Church, but I will say the idea of mortal sin can be a difficult concept for someone raised Baptist. So, you are not alone in your struggles with this!. I live in the deep south. So, 80% of my RCIA class members are former Baptists! This was the concept they had the most difficulty with as well. I will say that Methodist do believe that salvation can be lost.

A good book on the topic of sin and salvation is Marcus Grodi’s book What Must I do to Be Saved?. Marcus was a former pastor who believed in “Once Saved Always Saved” before he became Catholic. It’s a cheap book. I think it might help you.

JMR

I don’t believe in “once saved always saved”, so that doesn’t interfere with my hesitance towards the idea of mortal and venial sin. I just have a hard time grasping how sin has so much of an impact when Christ has already died for us.