Methodist pastor's sermon on Catholics

[jesuspsr]

Not bad, I liked it.
jesus g

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Not ALL Methodists believe as this Pastor does.

I was brought up in the Free Methodist Church (my maternal Grandfather was a Minister in that Denomination for over 50 years, as was his father-in-law, all of his brothers-in-law, his youngest son, etc.).

I was taught in Sunday School, in Papa’s church, that the Pope was the Devil Incarnate on this earth. That Nuns wore habits because they were literally “Brides of the Devil”, and the habits hid their horns and tails. That every Nun was required to have a baby fathered by a Priest, and that all of those babies were sacrificed during “Black Masses”, and that the flesh of those babies was eaten by those present.

My mother had no religion at all. But, since we spent every summer with Grandpa and Grandma, we were indoctrinated with his beliefs.

You can imagine how I felt, when in the middle of the 4th grade, my mother decided to put me into a Catholic Boarding School (it was the cheapest school she could find). I was terrified, I literally believed that she was turning me over to Satan.

It took about 5 minutes to learn that this was not the case (and about a week till all of the fear was gone). Those Dominican Nuns were so loving, and so accepting, that i knew even at the age of 9 that what I had been told was pure bunk.

But, I can tell you that there are still Methodist denominations where Catholics are considered to be non-Christian. The United Methodist Church is NOT all of the Methodist church.

 

[anp1215]

Not ALL Methodists believe as this Pastor does.

I was brought up in the Free Methodist Church (my maternal Grandfather was a Minister in that Denomination for over 50 years, as was his father-in-law, all of his brothers-in-law, his youngest son, etc.).

I was taught in Sunday School, in Papa’s church, that the Pope was the Devil Incarnate on this earth. That Nuns wore habits because they were literally “Brides of the Devil”, and the habits hid their horns and tails. That every Nun was required to have a baby fathered by a Priest, and that all of those babies were sacrificed during “Black Masses”, and that the flesh of those babies was eaten by those present.

My mother had no religion at all. But, since we spent every summer with Grandpa and Grandma, we were indoctrinated with his beliefs.

You can imagine how I felt, when in the middle of the 4th grade, my mother decided to put me into a Catholic Boarding School (it was the cheapest school she could find). I was terrified, I literally believed that she was turning me over to Satan.

It took about 5 minutes to learn that this was not the case (and about a week till all of the fear was gone). Those Dominican Nuns were so loving, and so accepting, that i knew even at the age of 9 that what I had been told was pure bunk.

But, I can tell you that there are still Methodist denominations where Catholics are considered to be non-Christian. The United Methodist Church is NOT all of the Methodist church.

True. As someone else pointed out, the Methodists vary widely, ranging from more conservative (mostly in the South), to more liberal (New England), to, apparently, wackadoodle (the one you described). No offense to your grandfather! haha
As with most Protestant denominations, you are likely to find a wide range of attitudes and beliefs.

 

[Roy5]

The appeal of mainline Protestantism to many is the ‘big tent’ philosophy. This means, of course, that these denominations permit wide divergence when it comes to doctrine and various practices. Some Methodists will resemble Episcopalians, maybe in liturgy, including creeds. Others will be more like Congregationalists and Presbyterians, or even Baptists.

 Many Methodists, for example, and especially among the clergy, are very liberal in their theology. Many say, in effect: "Christianity should evolve over the centuries. We should be acquainted with the Church Fathers and such medieval scholars as Aquinas, but there is no need to conform to their views in this 21st century. Our knowledge has expanded manyfold since they wrote, and we are not required to take much of what these ancient and medieval folks wrote all that seriously. They didn't yet have good telescopes nor microscopes and their worldview was based on very limited information and often false premises."

 One should not confuse religious 'openness' with any particular sympathy for Catholicism. Most Methodists I know tend to be 'free-thinking', very unlikely to embrace any form of Christianity which requires strict adherence to specific dogma. But they are slow to judge other faiths harshly because their basic principle is that "we should agree to disagree" while living in peace and mutual respect. I suspect that one reason mainline Protestantism had slipped is that many Methodists (and others) want a more emphatic "we are right!" form of religion and often turn to some variety of evangelicalism which, like Catholicism, is likely to claim that it alone preaches the truth.

 Actually, my experience is that many Catholics are, in effect, cryptic mainline Protestants. They are cultural Catholics, who have a deeply-rooted affection for their church and often their priests, but they really don't believe that it is the 'one true and apostolic church' founded by Jesus himself. They, too - especially since Vatican II - regard Protestantism as 'another room' in the large Christian family. In this area, in fact, many Catholics have joined mainline Protestant churches for a host of reasons - everything from doctrinal differences to divorce/remarriage, from disgust with the sex scandal to a desire for more openness on such matters as artificial birth control and acceptance of a responsible gay lifestyle.   

God bless Catholics, Protestants, and those of every creed, color, culture and country. Too often religion has preached love, humility and peace while, in effect, promoting bigotry, arrogance and hostility.

 

[cooterhein]

I don’t think it’s really a dilemma; I didn’t intend to imply that it was. Just a possibility is all.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I was taught in Sunday School, in Papa’s church, that the Pope was the Devil Incarnate on this earth. That Nuns wore habits because they were literally “Brides of the Devil”, and the habits hid their horns and tails. That every Nun was required to have a baby fathered by a Priest, and that all of those babies were sacrificed during “Black Masses”, and that the flesh of those babies was eaten by those present.

Well, as my old pastor (ahem) used to say, “Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church”.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Methodists have a religious Order of St Luke where the members pray seven times daily, emphasize the means of Grace etc.

John Wesley’s rule for Methodists included one-three hours of prayer morning AND evening with prayers at the Apostolic Hours of nine, noon and three. He advocated frequent reception of the sacraments, scripture-reading as well as reading of the Fathers and fasting.

Methodists even have had their own holy ones whose memory they have honoured in various ways.

Francis Asbury’s tree under which he preached is actually a kind of pilgrimage destination centre for Methodists. When Wesley’s chapel/home was taken down, fundraising was to be had by selling its bricks. A Methodist colonel in the Civil War once distributed pieces of the cloth taken from a reposed and respected Methodist preacher to his men before a battle . . .

This openness to the means of Grace and holiness is what doubtless leads Methodists to appreciate others who do likewise.

One Methodist minister raised a lot of ire when he had an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe installed in his parish. As a Mexican, he said it was simply “our tradition. . .”

I’ve a lot of time for such.

Alex

 

[Roy5]

It would be unwise to assume that the openness of Methodism to other faiths means that they have any tendency toward Roman Catholicism.

While it is true that there is a small group (mainly clergy) that is liturgically ‘high church’ (Society of St. Luke in particular). this is not representative of the denomination. There is a much larger group that is quite emphatically liberal and ‘low church’ Protestant and would identify more with Congregationalists and Presbyterians, say, than with Anglicanism, even though Methodism grew out of Anglicanism.

American Methodism was a frontier religion, and Circuit Riders on their horses were not inclined to carry around vestments and such. There has been a modest liturgical revival over the past 50-75 years, but most Methodist churches still are relatively 'informal' compared to, say, the Episcopalians and Lutherans.

But, as I've mentioned before, Methodism has evolved into a very open religion, a faith that has no concept of being the 'one true church', a faith that respects the beliefs and rituals of others, even non-Christians.. This is perhaps its major difference from traditional Roman Catholicism, which insists upon uniformity and conformity both in doctrine and liturgy and claims to be the only bonafide church founded by Christ himself.

 God bless them all. My own view is that the Lord looks at our hearts and isn't a bit concerned about our tribal differences and loyalties. In fact. our arrogance probably annoys him. Thank God that he is merciful and quick to forgive is our pettiness.

 

[AmateurPianist]

This is a the pastor of a very large Methodist Church in my area…I really enjoyed this sermon and thought he had a refreshingly open-minded attitude about Catholics. Actually a lot of the things he touched on are things that drew me to the faith. I swear this guy wants to be Catholic and just doesn’t know it yet
He even ends with a charitable commentary about the sex abuse scandal.
thewoodlandsumc.org/message/traditional/20110130

Thank you for finding and sharing this.

 

[anp1215]

Thank you for finding and sharing this.

I’m glad you liked it
I feel like perhaps others are reading too much into it. I just thought it was a great example of a Protestant being able to look beyond his denomination and find truth in another. He is a godly man and a pillar of the community.

Have a great day!

 

[cooterhein]

Triumphalism can make one a better Catholic; however, believing one’s Roman bishop-led tribe to be better than any other tribe does not lead one to a better understanding of Christ.

Thus one cannot become a better Catholic and a worse Christian as per you suggestion.

I see what you’re saying and I understand that you believe my observations are intrinsically less worthwhile due to the fact that my tribe is not led by a Roman bishop. However, I feel that your mindset is symptomatic of a problem that you have. One of the dangers of triumphalism is an impaired ability to judge the value or morality of your own group and the things that are associated with it, and the argument that you make at this very moment is a fine example of this.

 

[cooterhein]

It is not a tribe, it is the Body of Christ on earth - His Church.

All members of the Body of Christ have Christ as their leader and their head. However, there is a reason that I use the word “tribe.” There are social, political, and demographic subdivisions within any large population, but the ones that especially have to do with leaders are most readily associated with tribal subdivisions. One of the subdivisions within the Body of Christ pertains to the tribe that is led by the bishop of Rome. Many who belong to this tribe believe there’s something wrong with any Christian that doesn’t belong to their tribe and follow their leader; I disagree with this, but in spite of this disagreement, you should have no problem with seeing that this is tribalism.

It is not mine, I simply belong to it. I am but a tiny, insignificant part of it.

It is “yours” in the sense that you belong to it. It is “your tribe” in the sense that you are a part of it. I’m well aware of the fact that you are not its leader, nor do you own it on paper. When I talk about Keith Bogans and “his team,” the Chicago Bulls, you know I’m not implying that he is the owner or even the star player. It’s not really that difficult.

It is Christ’s Church and, per the Nicene Creed (AD 325), its four hallmarks are that it is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. This is exactly as Christ founded it and exactly as Christ prayed it would remain.

Funny you should bring up Nicea. Who convened that council? Which pope was that?

The Church that Christ founded has the entire deposit of faith. It has all of the divinely revealed truth.

If there were anything in addition to what is written that was memorized and transmitted via oral tradition, I would have some additional material to look at (or listen to, as the case may be). As it is, though, the successors of the apostles were not assigned any further revelation that they were supposed to commit to memory.

You are absolutely correct that those who remain outside of her settle for less.

I didn’t say that this is so; I submitted that perhaps you believe this to be true. (But you knew that, of course). It seems that you do believe this to be true, and it is disappointing.

This is not triumphalism - it is not arrogance.

Triumphalism, broadly speaking, is the attitude or belief that a doctrine, religious affiliation, political theory, sports team…or religious tribe, as another example…is superior to all others. This is what you believe, and I can see that you’re quite committed to it. It is a pejorative term which implies that you might be doing something wrong, so understandably, most people will not apply the term to themselves. But it does describe your attitude, and it makes sense for others to see it before you see it in yourself. That’s generally how it works in these situations.

Arrogance is an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner toward perceived inferiors or in presumptuous claims/assumptions. In your particular case, this can be seen most readily in your attitude toward people like me. You see me as your inferior because, in your mind, I haven’t been enlightened as you have. I don’t have what you have in the Catholic Church, and my criticism of your attitude toward me is unfounded because you actually are my superior and I just can’t see that. Again though, you can’t see anything wrong with that at this time. At one level, I’m sure you’re hoping that I’ll actually admire this “confidence” that you have.

It is confidence.

Polish that turd.

I was outside of her, as you are. I examined her, I questioned her. I studied her. And, I joined her.

And evidently, you came to accept a position of arrogance and triumphalism as non-optional. I hope that you can at least find a way to stop doing that. If you can do that and remain Catholic, God bless you, sir.

I can only implore you to examine her, to study her and to question her.

That’s what I’ve been doing, plus a few other things. I see where you’re going with this, though, and you can keep your application. I mean that.

 

[gtrenewed]

Triumphalism can make one a better Catholic; however, believing one’s Roman bishop-led tribe to be better than any other tribe does not lead one to a better understanding of Christ.

It is not a question of better but of the fullness of the deposit of the faith.

I found two definitions for “triumphalism”; one just saying a belief that one’s doctrine is correct and one that adds proud and arrogant.

Proud and arrogant belief is anti-Catholic/Christian. You cannot be in arrogant triumphalism and be a better Catholic.

A non-believer considers any Christian in triumphalism in both senses. If you have witnessed to any non-believer they consider our adherence to the Gospel saving us and keeping us from hell arrogant. Many believe they just need to be a good person not needing Jesus nor any church in order to go to heaven and escape hell. You can be very humble in following the Gospel but if they are challenged spiritually a non-believer feels that you are arrogant because you are certain of Gospel truth.

When outside of the Church, I was incensed at the arrogance of Catholics who claim to have the fullness of faith. When I left the Church all I saw were Laodicean parishoners who couldn’t wait for Mass to be over in order to get on with their carnal lives. As a Protestant, I was enjoying the gifts of the Spirit, was fluent in Bible knowledge, and totally focused on Jesus; so what could be fuller than this?

I came to understand that fullness is not a matter of personal spiritual accomplishment but of location. In heaven we will enjoy the complete fullness of being in Christ; however, here on earth the deposit of faith left by Jesus to the Apostles and from the Apostles to succeeding generations guided by the Holy Spirit is fully found in the Catholic Church.

This is where the fullnes comes from - authority - from the Father’s Will, to Jesus fulfilling the Father’s Will, to the the Apostles teaching the doctrine learned from Jesus, to those chosen by the Apostles to teach this doctrine, to those chosen in succeeding generations to keep and teach the Gospel. If you look at the early church writings, they describe the worship and doctrine that is found in the Catholic Church today.

By God’s grace, a Christian can be found all over the world outside of the Catholic Church. While they enjoy relationship with Jesus, they do not enjoy the fullness here on earth because they are outside the authority established by Jesus. It is like royal siblings, all are of the royal household but only one is heir to the fullness of the throne. So, a non-Catholic Christian is like a royal sibling, and a Catholic Christian is like a royal sibling that is in line to inherent the throne.

Like I said, this does not mean better or worse Christian for God judges this. We must all strive to use the grace and and measure of faith given but we all fall short at onetime or another. To become one royal family again, we all will be in the authority and fullness given to us by Jesus.

 

[jb3842]

Methodists are some of our brothers and sisters who are best disposed toward the Church. I enjoy conversation with them. As to the Pastor, well, we will see. Have you heard of Catholic Deacon Alex Jones? He was pastor of his own non-denom community and, from scripture, realized that the true Church was Apostolic in nature. So, he began to become Apostolic in his services. The congregation began grilling him on whether or not he was becoming Catholic, and he responded “No, I’m just being Apostolic” Bottom line, he and 50+ of his congregation all converted. Praise God!

true of the two (pastors amy and tim) at the asbury ministry at drexel, p.a. said she’s ‘co-celebrated’ some Holy Week stuff with Catholics =-ot and also they had an ash service ash wednesday and follow a similar if not the same liturgical calendar as we do…they’re Bible studies thus far and mini-worship stuff has been cool too PLGB thanks be to GOD Indeed, prayers for all Christianity and God Willing all creation to unite in Christ And The Word Of GOD PLGB

 

[jb3842]

‘ecumenical Christian(s) practicing the Catholic tradition’ or similar, PLGB…i think they’ve some belief in Presence In or Near The Blessed Sacrament too ne? PLGB Bible and jn.17 unity knows best, better than any one person, Christ aside, God Willin’

 

[zdon011]

Methodists are some of our brothers and sisters who are best disposed toward the Church. I enjoy conversation with them. As to the Pastor, well, we will see. Have you heard of Catholic Deacon Alex Jones? He was pastor of his own non-denom community and, from scripture, realized that the true Church was Apostolic in nature. So, he began to become Apostolic in his services. The congregation began grilling him on whether or not he was becoming Catholic, and he responded “No, I’m just being Apostolic” Bottom line, he and 50+ of his congregation all converted. Praise God!

:thumbsup:Great story

 

[dcisn]

This is actually pretty good! However…he is still wrong about Mary…she is the Mother of God…but he said we worship her as we do Christ…when are they ever going to get that right! Ugh! She is His mother…and she leads us to her Son over and over…our Heavenly Mother! God bless you all!

 

[lelden]

I just wanted to thank the OP for posting this link. I enjoyed the sermon and am forwarding it to my mom & dad–a lapsed Catholic and an ecumenical Methodist. I am a Catholic convert who is blessed with an ecumenical spirit, and it gives me hope and joy to encounter others who share my yearning for unity in the body of Christ.

 

[Roy5]

A couple thoughts

 Lots of Protestants would like a united Christianity. However, as long as Catholicism insists that everything it teaches and preaches is the one and only truth, that will not happen. Millions of Protestants (and millions of Catholics, too, by the way) think independently. They embrace Christ and try to be faithful disciples, but they have their own ideas re eternal life, Mary, saints, the Pope, etc. They are not likely to fit well into any cookie-cutter version of Christianity that requires giving up that independence. More and more education increases this sense of independence.

 It's important that Catholics don't interpret friendliness toward Catholicism and other forms of Christianity as a drift toward Catholicism. Methodists, for example, are likely to be intensely ecumenical. In fact, they move easily from one denomination to another, if they go to a different community. In places like Canada Methodists have disappeared because they have merged with Presbyterians and Congregationalists (the United Church of Canada). This tendency is not toward Catholicism but actually away from it. Catholicism requires a firm conviction that one and only one church is correct, which is alien to the thinking of most Methodists as well as many others.

  To millions of Christians Christ was not a harsh, one-way-only Redeemer. He spoke of other sheep not of this fold. He used a Samaritan as his model - and Samaritans were despised by the Jews of that time. He identified those to be 'saved' not as members of any church but as those who fed the hungry and visited the sick and imprisoned. The central focus of Christianity should not be on belonging to the correct tribe but having a heart that reflects the love of Christ. "Faith, hope and love, these three abide, and the greatest of these is love." All this emphasis on doctrinal purity or 'one true church' is mistaken - in my view.

 Then again, 'different strokes for different strokes'. I admire so much about Catholicism, the 'faith of my fathers' (literally), but over the years I have come to treasure more and more the freedom to explore and appreciate other faiths as well. I believe that Christians should be humble and stop insisting that we alone have the truth. God alone has the truth, and I doubt if we ever know it significantly this side of heaven.

 God bless God-serving people of every creed, color, culture and country. May religion become a bridge rather than a barrier.

 

[Roy5]

Oops! “Different strokes for different folks!” Am getting sloppy in my old age. Sorry.