L
Lochias
Guest
I’ve long thought that St. Francis of Assisi was John Wesley “done right”. Just goes to show what a person can accomplish if they ground their faith properly, IMO.
- Status
L
Lochias
Guest
Did I say that nobody should struggle with their faith? Putting words in my mouth is not appreciated, either.Amen. John Wesley was a very honest and holy man. Anyone who says they don’t struggle with their faith at times is a liar in my book.
I think John Wesley was, essentially, a good man. I think he was honest with his feelings and approaches, and I can appreciate him for that.
I do not think, however, that he was particularly wise or grounded in his faith.
L
ltwin
Guest
If you think all it took for John Wesley to know he was saved because his heart was warmed, then you obviously have not clue about what Wesley taught or what Methodism is all about.
A
AbideWithMe
Guest
That’s an interesting perspective, Lochias. In my view, though, as much as I admire St. Francis, I think St. Francis was St. Francis done right, and John Wesley was John Wesley done right.
Surely, Wesley was a flawed and complex human with a tender heart and tender conscience who went through periods of walking forward despite darkness. In that, I think Wesley’s comment to his brother has something in common with the admission of Mother Teresa mentioned earlier.If Wesley’s comment makes no sense whatsoever to someone, either they’re unusually blessed with faith, or they’re naturally unreflective, or they just haven’t lived long enough, so it seems to me.
L
Lochias
Guest
I got the whole spiel when I became a member of a Methodist church for about 6 months. The whole thing stressed the “Via Media”, which in the context of this particular Methodist church is the fancy Latin term for relativism. Color me unimpressed.
L
Lochias
Guest
Makes perfect sense to me, as I already stated.
L
ltwin
Guest
So, I take it you haven’t actually read any of Wesley’s work? Considering that most Methodists haven’t, I’m not surprised.
And I thought the Via Media was the Anglican’s public relations campaign. They must have hijacked it.
From the UMC website,
. . . The theology of John Wesley, however, follows more closely a different strand of theology in the Western and the Orthodox (Eastern) tradition that understands salvation is both something God does and in which we cooperate, though not as equals by any means. Only God can initiate salvation. But only by our ongoing, living relationship with God through faith can God’s saving intention be fully realized in our lives.
John Wesley particularly identified his understanding of salvation with the theology and writings of the seventeenth century Dutch theologian, Jacob Arminius, against whose teaching the Synod of Dort was called and its Canons (the TULIP principles described above) were articulated. While Arminius was Reformed, he was far more convinced by the mainstream Roman Catholic theology which spoke of human free will and limited human cooperation in salvation, dissenting strongly from what was already becoming and later would become the standard of Reformed theology in his country.
Arminius, like Calvin and all of classical Christianity, affirmed that there is nothing humans can do to initiate salvation. Only God can do this, and God does so unconditionally, and for all, not just a limited number of the pre-selected. Christ’s saving activity in his life, death and resurrection was thus potentially effective for all. Only faith, which is an exercise of our will, under the influence of divine grace, is required of us. Such faith and responsiveness to God grace, revealed in our works, but not caused by them, keeps us “in grace.” This means it is possible for us to “fall from grace,” a phrase he borrows from verses in Hebrews 6 and 10, by not sustaining our faith. A lapse in our works can be a sign, but again is not a cause, of such a fall from grace. The consequences, if our error is not corrected, can be spiritual death and eternity in Hell… . . .
John Wesley particularly identified his understanding of salvation with the theology and writings of the seventeenth century Dutch theologian, Jacob Arminius, against whose teaching the Synod of Dort was called and its Canons (the TULIP principles described above) were articulated. While Arminius was Reformed, he was far more convinced by the mainstream Roman Catholic theology which spoke of human free will and limited human cooperation in salvation, dissenting strongly from what was already becoming and later would become the standard of Reformed theology in his country.
Arminius, like Calvin and all of classical Christianity, affirmed that there is nothing humans can do to initiate salvation. Only God can do this, and God does so unconditionally, and for all, not just a limited number of the pre-selected. Christ’s saving activity in his life, death and resurrection was thus potentially effective for all. Only faith, which is an exercise of our will, under the influence of divine grace, is required of us. Such faith and responsiveness to God grace, revealed in our works, but not caused by them, keeps us “in grace.” This means it is possible for us to “fall from grace,” a phrase he borrows from verses in Hebrews 6 and 10, by not sustaining our faith. A lapse in our works can be a sign, but again is not a cause, of such a fall from grace. The consequences, if our error is not corrected, can be spiritual death and eternity in Hell… . . .
L
Lochias
Guest
If the guy couldn’t be Catholic, I can’t trust him 100%, and I have to doubt the total nature of his holiness.So, I take it you haven’t actually read any of Wesley’s work? Considering that most Methodists haven’t, I’m not surprised.
And I thought the Via Media was the Anglican’s public relations campaign. They must have hijacked it.
From the UMC website,
. . . The theology of John Wesley, however, follows more closely a different strand of theology in the Western and the Orthodox (Eastern) tradition that understands salvation is both something God does and in which we cooperate, though not as equals by any means. Only God can initiate salvation. But only by our ongoing, living relationship with God through faith can God’s saving intention be fully realized in our lives.
John Wesley particularly identified his understanding of salvation with the theology and writings of the seventeenth century Dutch theologian, Jacob Arminius, against whose teaching the Synod of Dort was called and its Canons (the TULIP principles described above) were articulated. While Arminius was Reformed, he was far more convinced by the mainstream Roman Catholic theology which spoke of human free will and limited human cooperation in salvation, dissenting strongly from what was already becoming and later would become the standard of Reformed theology in his country.
Arminius, like Calvin and all of classical Christianity, affirmed that there is nothing humans can do to initiate salvation. Only God can do this, and God does so unconditionally, and for all, not just a limited number of the pre-selected. Christ’s saving activity in his life, death and resurrection was thus potentially effective for all. Only faith, which is an exercise of our will, under the influence of divine grace, is required of us. Such faith and responsiveness to God grace, revealed in our works, but not caused by them, keeps us “in grace.” This means it is possible for us to “fall from grace,” a phrase he borrows from verses in Hebrews 6 and 10, by not sustaining our faith. A lapse in our works can be a sign, but again is not a cause, of such a fall from grace. The consequences, if our error is not corrected, can be spiritual death and eternity in Hell… . . .
Would that he could have been faithful to Mother Church, and to see the fruits that might have been. I lament the loss.
Y
yogosans14
Guest
Wow, were doing the im holier than thou now are we.If the guy couldn’t be Catholic, I can’t trust him 100%, and I have to doubt the total nature of his holiness.
L
Lochias
Guest
A
aemcpa
Guest
It’s not “I’m holier than thou” as much as it is “my religion is holier than thy religion”. Which is true when the speaker is a Catholic.
Y
yogosans14
Guest
I dont believe arrogance is a fruitage of the spirit…
B
Bob_Crowley
Guest
I’m not aware of any Protestants that believe in the existence of Purgatory. I was originally Presbyterian, but my wise old pastor was a Methodist by training, so I wasn’t clobbered by any hardline Calvinism.
I don’t remember any discussion of Purgatory at any time.
But on a personal, “spiritual” note, I still remember going to one of his son’s residences not long after the pastor died. On the wall there was this small photo of the pastor. As I stood looking at it, pondering his recent death, I had this strange sense of a sweaty torridness in relation to him, as though he himself were undergoing a rather unpleasant experience. At the time I was still Protestant, and some years away from becoming Catholic.
With hindsight, and my later acceptance of Catholicism, I think I was being given a spiritual hint of the fact that even he was in Purgatory. And he was one of the holiest men I’ve met. He probably wasn’t there long, but I still remember this weird sense of a torrid experience. Yet I had no particular reason to even think about it at the time, since Purgatory just didn’t figure in my scheme of things.
To me, it’s a case of character as much as anything. I believe that my own father is in hell, for reasons I’ve stated before (he appeared in my room the night he died). He had a foul temper, and by the time he died, his temper controlled him.
But suppose he’d made a deathbed confession. Since God must be true to Himself, then I think he’d have been forgiven. But God’s not going to clean up all our faults for us. Even if my father had made such a hypothetical confession, he’d have died pretty much the same man he was before he died, someone who had indulged a vile temper most of his life, and gradually getting worse and worse, and who had done practically nothing to bring it under control. He’d have taken his hair trigger temper with him.
He’d have had a bit of cleaning up to do. If he wasn’t prepared to do something about this temper of his before he died, then he’d have to be purged of it after he died. Nothing gets into heaven unless its perfect. And God’s not going to just wave a magic wand and do everything for us. Otherwise all the talk about God’s absolute holiness is just so much hot air.
I think Protestants get a shock when they die, and find out that the Catholic concept of Purgatory was correct after all, and that it’s not just a Monopoly game with a $200 get out of jail card granted to all Christians, regardless of their confessional status and character failings.
C
Carlan
Guest
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
I am a former Methodist, and my parents are Methodist to this day. While my experience is purely anecdotal, I can attest that I never heard of purgatory until I became Catholic in college, and just last month, my father and I exchanged many emails on the subject because he considers purgatory to be one example of how Catholicism went “off the rails” requiring the Reformation to get the Church back on track.
After MUCH back and forth, I think he now begrudgingly agrees that there is nothing unscriptural about purgatory, so while he maintains his view that it does not exist, he can’t prove that the Catholic Church is wrong.
I hope that nags at him to go “deeper into history”.
- Status