Methodists believe in transubstantiation?

[Roy5]

I suggest, OSLuke, that one reason Methodism has lost membership is because too many of the younger ministers are being fed high liturgy in seminary. Consider our local Methodist church, with which I am rather well acquainted. The new minister, a fine young woman, has brought in a variety of changes, some very small, but it loses what Methodism once had which helped it grow so rapidly in years past. Instead of a vibrant, free service, she wants everything to be ‘liturgically correct’ and can make a big issue over nothing. Like altar colors. As though true religion revolves around altar colors! What was a warm atmosphere now focuses more attention upon ‘doing liturgy in a proper way.’ Nonsense.

 This is the main reason why the evangelicals have gained so. I do not like their narrow theology, but most of their churches that I have attended (and I attend houses of worship of all types, including Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) are exciting - in their music, in their informality, in their preaching, etc. Go to a liturgical church and everything is set. For example, the lectionary - in my mind - tends to box in the Holy Spirit. What if the preacher feels led to focus elsewhere in scripture? I've read the Methodist churches that do not use the lectionary are 'more successful' than those that do. Doesn't that say something worth listening to? 

  As far as Wesley is concerned, I admire his dedication, energy, and many of his concepts. But this notion, whether held by Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, or any others that we should be bound by this or that teaching or tradition that may or may not be particularly relevant is wrong. That's one reason why Catholicism has lost so many. They depend so much upon the Church Fathers, brilliant men to be sure, but without a reliable telescope or any microscope. When you believe the earth is the center of the solar system and that disease is caused by Satan or sin - well, I'm not willing to depend on them for my beliefs. The risk is far too much teaching rooted in superstition that may have been acceptable through the medieval age but not now.

 

[Cat_Herder]

  As far as Wesley is concerned, I admire his dedication, energy, and many of his concepts. But this notion, whether held by Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, or any others that we should be bound by this or that teaching or tradition that may or may not be particularly relevant is wrong. That's one reason why Catholicism has lost so many.

O RLY?

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7587

They depend so much upon the Church Fathers, brilliant men to be sure, but without a reliable telescope or any microscope. When you believe the earth is the center of the solar system and that disease is caused by Satan or sin - well, I’m not willing to depend on them for my beliefs. The risk is far too much teaching rooted in superstition that may have been acceptable through the medieval age but not now.

“Superstition” like actually having something to offer on the altar?

If you’re going to get rid of the Church Fathers, why not get rid of that pesky superstitious tome called the Bible? After all, it says that death is the wages of sin, and that those who recieve Communion unworthily may become sick… more superstition?

Beware of hasty generalizations, my friend!

 

[ChadS]

Cat Herder, why do you keep using the term “elder” when referring to the United Methodist Church? In all my years in the UMC I never ran across “elders” in any way, shape, or form. Elders are something I typically associate with Baptists and other fundamentalists and evangelicals. It wouldn’t be correct to refer to others in the UMC as elders and should either talk about ministers, bishops or possibly district superintendents.

ChadS

 

[Cat_Herder]

Cat Herder, why do you keep using the term “elder” when referring to the United Methodist Church? In all my years in the UMC I never ran across “elders” in any way, shape, or form. Elders are something I typically associate with Baptists and other fundamentalists and evangelicals. It wouldn’t be correct to refer to others in the UMC as elders and should either talk about ministers, bishops or possibly district superintendents.

ChadS

call their ministersofficially, after the Greek term presbuteros, from which comes the word “priest.”

But in case it isn’t painfully clear already, the UMC’s “official” positions are not enforced.

 

[Zooey]

I don’t know what you have got against the Order of St. Luke, but like you say - we are a grain of sand on a big beach. You give us FAR too much credit to have single-handedly changed the sacramental theology of United Methodism! And if you think that the bulk of Order members are pushing toward narrowing doctrine, I would simply invite you to a retreat or annual meeting and then tell me what you think after meeting those folks.

The push towards reclaiming a Wesleyan sacramental theology came from a variety of sources - most of them historians and theologians who saw that Methodism had lost the very sacramental and evangelical nature that birthed it; people like Ed Phillips, Karen Westerfield Tucker, Geoffrey Wainwright, Don Saliers, Gayle Felton, Lawrence Stookey - none of them Order of St. Luke members. John Wesley’s sacramental theology was as high as his evangelical bent - and the hymns and liturgies of early Methodism prove it.

Sorry Roy, but history is not on your side.

The liturgy in the present Hymnal is congruent to the theology of the UMC on the matter. So it is more than theoretical - it is ecclesial and it is practical. As far as “indicting” anyone: how many laity do you know have been excommunicated for practicing birth control, or not believing in transubstantiation? How many priests have been excommunicated for transgressions against canon law? A few I am sure… but not many.

Incorrect. The General Conference has jurisdiction from the day it begins until the last day of the quadrennium before the next General Conference. It’s makeup may change every four years, but its authority and jurisdiction is permanent. A General Conference can be convened at anytime.

GBOD is one of many general agencies (in this case, the discipleship branch) of the denomination that acts (or I should say, is SUPPOSED to act) under the direction of the General Conference and the Book of Discipline. In the language of government, the episcopacy is the executive branch, the general conference is the legislative branch, and the judicial council is the judicial branch. The only authority of the UMC is the General Conference, and it and its decisions present and past is the only authority that can speak for the UMC. All other entities in the church answer to, and fall under, its authority and jurisdiction.

That doesn’t mean it’s always followed, anymore than the Vatican and canon law is always followed by all Catholcis. But that is how it OFFICIALLY works.

“Conference” is used in two ways in Methodism: (1) the two-week gathering, and (2) akin to “diocese.” The General Conference (some call it “Connection”) is divided into Jurisdictions, which are divided into Annual Conferences.

Precisely!!
There is undoubtedly a lot of confusion among non-Methodists about this. (Probably no wonder; I sometimes think I spend half my life translating between Christians & Christians…).

Bishops are amenable to to the Book of Discipline, which is under the jurisdiction and and authority of the General Conference. Just like a Catholic bishop is under the authority of His Holiness, Canon Law, the Catechism, etc. If I am not mistaken, a Catholic Bishop’s authority extends only as far as Canon Law or the Magisterium allows. Bishops in any communion are not lone rangers. In the UMC, as in Catholicism, bishops appoint pastors, they are not hired as in a presbyterian system.

O+

 

[Zooey]

“Elder” is what they officially call their ministers, after the Greek term presbuteros, from which comes the word “priest.”

Exactly!!
An elder is a Methodist pastor. That is what an ordained pastor is.
You aren’t fully ordained, unless you are an elder. :shrug:You aren’t an elder unless you are fully ordained.

But in case it isn’t painfully clear already, the UMC’s “official” positions are not enforced.

It may look that way from the outside, but believe me when I say, that from the inside, it appears that official positions are being enforced, at least every 15 minutes…(sigh…)

 

[ChadS]

Exactly!!
An elder is a Methodist pastor. That is what an ordained pastor is.
You aren’t fully ordained, unless you are an elder. :shrug:You aren’t an elder unless you are fully ordained.

It may look that way from the outside, but believe me when I say, that from the inside, it appears that official positions are being enforced, at least every 15 minutes…(sigh…)

I spent the first 30 years of my life in the UMC as a regular church attender and my family has been active in its church. Never once did I hear the term “elder” is the official term for an ordained minister. We were never taught to believe in any sort of real presence in our communion – the way the elements are taken care of after communion would indicate that. The grape juice is put back with the other grape juice for next time and the remaining bread was either given to the birds, if it was cubed or if it came from a loaf it went home with somebody.

I think what groups like the Order of St. Luke are trying to do favors one of the hisotrical theologies of the UMC over the other. There is an entire other branch that comes from the Evangelical United Bretheren, that is decidedly more non-sacramental and liturgical than Wesleyan theology ever was.

When I come onto CAF and read about the UMC I wonder if we’re talking about the same church I grew up in or that my parents still attend?

ChadS

 

[Cat_Herder]

It may look that way from the outside, but believe me when I say, that from the inside, it appears that official positions are being enforced, at least every 15 minutes…(sigh…)

That’s refreshing to hear, but I am convinced that while procedural aspects of the church are enforced, there is little to no enforcement of substantive doctrinal teaching. The docket of the Judicial Council that I linked to above seems to reflect that. Do you think that is a fair assessment?

 

[Roy5]

A few points.

(1) Yes, UM ministers are officially ‘Elders’. But the term is rarely used except in the Discipline and during ordination. It can be confusing because Elders among various other Protestant denominations can have a very different meaning.

(2) Re statistics. It is true that Protestants have become a bare majority in the USA today, just surpassing 50%.
    However, a few points to consider.
   (a) Former Catholics, roughly 30 million of them, may be seen as the second largest 'denomination' in the USA, although many of these have become Protestants.
   (b) Catholicism has remained fairly steady for at least these three reasons: 
         1. A large Hispanic influx, much of it illegally here. It is now estimated that between 35-40% of US Catholics today are Hispanic, though large numbers of them become Pentecostalists. An area priest wrote a letter to a local paper strongly supporting illegal immigrants. "They will be filling and saving our empty inner-city churches," he argued.
         2. Nine out of ten Christian immigrants coming to the US today are Catholics when they arrive.
         3. Millions of Catholics disagree with their church on many issues. For example, a poll carried in the *US Catholic*found that 43% of US Catholics disbelieve in transubstantition, perhaps the most crucial doctrine of the church. So, what is the real number of believing and devoted Catholics? Hard to say. In this area less than 25% of Catholic regularly attend mass. 
       
(3) My main point, over and over, is that Catholicism needs to be a 'bigger tent', with less insistence and emphasis upon doctrines and practices that alienate modern, educated minds. This includes everything from some of the debatable aspects of Mariology, certain wild stories about saints like Padre Pio (levitation, bilocation, etc.), and insistence upon belief in guardian angels, various apparitions, praying to a whole panoply of saints, and so on to the insistence upon priestly celibacy and refusal to give women greater status in the church. Catholicism also needs to stop insisting that it is the one and only true church, which suggests both arrogance and also certainty, when more and more people today recognize that our finite minds simply cannot pretend to know many aspects re ultimate things. Dogma developed in early and medieval Christianity was acceptable to  the ancient and medieval mind but can seem quite offensive and even silly to the modern mind. 

But God bless Catholics, Protestants and His children of every faith community!

 

[clmowry]

** No. Maybe. Yes.

“The Presence of Christ
*Principle:
***Jesus Christ, who “is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of
God’s very being” (Hebrews 1:3), is truly present in Holy Communion. Through
Jesus Christ and in the power of the Holy Spirit, God meets us at the Table. God,
who has given the sacraments to the church, acts in and through Holy
Communion. Christ is present through the community gathered in Jesus’ name
(Matthew 18:20), through the Word proclaimed and enacted, and through the
elements of bread and wine shared (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). The divine presence
is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is not a remembrance
of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion only.”

“Article XVIII describes the Lord’s Supper as “a sacrament of our redemption
by Christ’s death; insomuch that, to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith
receive the same, the bread which we break is a partaking of the body of Christ;
and likewise the cup of blessing is a partaking of the blood of Christ””

kintera.org/atf/cf/%7B3482e846-598f-460a-b9a7-386734470eda%7D/THM-BYGC.PDF

"Question: Do United Methodists believe the communion elements actually become the body and blood of Christ?
**Answer: ** “No, we believe that the change is spiritual. They signify the body and blood of Christ for us, helping us to be Christ’s body in the world today, redeemed by Christ’s blood. We pray over the bread and cup that they may make us one with Christ, “one with each other, and one in service to all the world.” (United Methodists and Communion brochure)"

umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=5070513&ct=3334393&notoc=1

The General Conference approved This Holy Mystery - not the GBOD. General Conference action made it the official teaching of the denomination in 2004. As you may or may not know, the General Conference is the ONLY body that can officially speak for United Methodism. It is not a GBOD “ruling” - there is no such thing as a GBOD ruling.

By church law, any elder or deacon teaching something contrary to church law and teaching can be brought up on church law charges, since such is a chargeable offense. The General Conference, and the Book of Discipline, DOES speak for United Methodism.

Your “conclusion”, as well as your understanding of the polity and Discipline of the UMC, is incorrect in this matter.

 

[fjonc]

Ok, this comes from a lay person whose faith has been tried and tested many times through the years. That at the time of what I am about to tell you, I had no idea what anyone in the Methodist church taught or what their teachings are.
First let me say, I was born and raised in the Catholic Church. I went to a Methodist Church with someone who I was dating and thought I would go with them if they would go with me. So I went with them and they had communion thinking it was the same at the time. After communion, I come back and kneel and knew there was something missing but I did not know what. A few years later when I was going through a difficult time I learned a lot more than I had my whole life about the Catholic Church and why it teaches what it does. At the time I also was going through some things in which I did not go to Communion for a year and a half. I still went up for a blessing. Durring that time, I learned that Methodists do not believe in transubstantiation. Then it hit me why I knew there was something missing when I went at the Methodist church. Being away from not having Communion for a year and a half and on that day I received Communion after all that time I felt the presence of Jesus there with me and that he truly forgave me and I knew that he will always love me no matter what. This statement is true and as fresh in my mind as that day and the day I talked with a priest about this too.
Yes it may not be backed with Biblical references and what not from other sources but just a humbled persons personal experience… J

 

[ChadS]

(3) My main point, over and over, is that Catholicism needs to be a ‘bigger tent’, with less insistence and emphasis upon doctrines and practices that alienate modern, educated minds. This includes everything from some of the debatable aspects of Mariology, certain wild stories about saints like Padre Pio (levitation, bilocation, etc.), and insistence upon belief in guardian angels, various apparitions, praying to a whole panoply of saints, and so on to the insistence upon priestly celibacy and refusal to give women greater status in the church. Catholicism also needs to stop insisting that it is the one and only true church, which suggests both arrogance and also certainty, when more and more people today recognize that our finite minds simply cannot pretend to know many aspects re ultimate things. Dogma developed in early and medieval Christianity was acceptable to the ancient and medieval mind but can seem quite offensive and even silly to the modern mind.

But God bless Catholics, Protestants and His children of every faith community!

1. So basically you would like Catholics to become just another Protestant denomination.
2. A lot of people come to the Catholic church for the various things you say need to be changed. For example I know the certainty of the Catholic church and its teaching authority drew me to it since many Protestant denominations can be very wishy washy and can’t take a stand on some important issues.
3. I suppose I’m glad I have a medieval sort of mindset if the alternative means turning Catholicism into another Protestant denomination.

ChadS

 

[Cat_Herder]

A few points.
(2) Re statistics. …

Some friendly advice: Don’t repeat some conclusion about statistics unless you’ve seen the data. Trust but verify. In this case, the data indicates that there is no mass exodus from the Catholic Church.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7616
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7615

My graphs are generated from the General Social Survey. It’s very easy to use.

With regard to your comments about Mexican immigrants, you need to study your history. There is nothing new under the sun.

(3) My main point, over and over, is that Catholicism needs to be a 'bigger tent', with less insistence and emphasis upon doctrines and practices that alienate modern, educated minds.

Where by “modern, educated minds” you mean people who want to define what Christianity is based on their own human reasoning rather than what the Bible says. To wit:

This includes everything from some of the debatable aspects of Mariology,

Ez 44:2, Gn 3:15, Rev 12:1-14, etc.

certain wild stories about saints like Padre Pio (levitation, bilocation, etc.),

And that wild one about the Jewish carpenter’s boy who rose from the dead…

If you try to explain your double standard away by saying “it’s in the Bible,” the problem you face is that so is everything else in this reply…

and insistence upon belief in guardian angels,

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:10[/BIBLEDRB]

various apparitions,

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 12:1[/BIBLEDRB]

praying to a whole panoply of saints,

Lk 9:30-31, Mk 9:4, Rev 6:9-11, Heb 12:1, Lk 16:19-30, Rom 15:30, Col 4:3, 1 Thes. 5:25, 2 Thes. 1:11, 3:1, Eph. 6:18-19, Ps. 149:1-4, Mk 12:26-27, Jos 5:12-15, Dan 8:17, Lk 20:36, Mt 22:30, etc.

and so on to the insistence upon priestly celibacy

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:11-12[/BIBLEDRB]

and refusal to give women greater status in the church.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 14:34-35[/BIBLEDRB]

Catholicism also needs to stop insisting that it is the one and only true church, which suggests both arrogance

[BIBLEDRB]John 10:16[/BIBLEDRB]

and also certainty, when more and more people today recognize that our finite minds simply cannot pretend to know many aspects re ultimate things.

Hail Pilate!

[BIBLEDRB]John 18:37-38[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Cat_Herder]

And now some graphs that are specific to United Methodism.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7618

Take-away:

9% of children raised in the UMC are now agnostic or atheist
8% are Catholic
3% are unspecified Christian

It is also possible to determine what percentage of Protestants in that graph are still UMC.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7620

Only 64% of the 85% “Protestants” are still Methodist == 54% of “Protestant” in the first graph are Methodist. The remaining 31% have lapsed into another Protestant denomination.

9% + 8% + 3% + 31% == That’s a 51% total lapse for United Methodism. Compare to the Catholic Church, at 9% lapse (see the first graph on the previous post).

I would suggest that this whole “big tent” idea is not working so well.

(For those of you playing along at home, filter the survey by DENKID(22000) to get only those respondents who were raised United Methodist.)

 

[Cat_Herder]

And now some graphs that are specific to United Methodism.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7618

Take-away:

9% of children raised in the UMC are now agnostic or atheist
8% are Catholic
3% are unspecified Christian

It is also possible to determine what percentage of Protestants in that graph are still UMC.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7620

Only 64% of the 85% “Protestants” are still Methodist == 54% of “Protestant” in the first graph are Methodist. The remaining 31% have lapsed into another Protestant denomination.

9% + 8% + 3% + 31% == That’s a 51% total lapse for United Methodism. Compare to the Catholic Church, with a 35% total lapse, only 9% of which is to Protestantism (see the first graph on the previous post).

I would suggest that this whole “big tent” idea is not working so well.

(For those of you playing along at home, filter the survey by DENKID(22000) to get only those respondents who were raised United Methodist.)

 

[Cat_Herder]

And now some graphs that are specific to United Methodism.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7618

Take-away:

9% of children raised in the UMC are now agnostic or atheist
7% are Catholic
3% are unspecified Christian

It is also possible to determine what percentage of Protestants in that graph are still UMC.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7620

Only 64% of the 85% “Protestants” are still Methodist == 54% of “Protestant” in the first graph are Methodist. The remaining 31% have lapsed into another Protestant denomination.

9% + 7% + 3% + 31% == That’s a 50% total lapse for United Methodism. Half of the church has left.

Compare to the Catholic Church, with a 35% total lapse, only 15% of which is to Protestantism. A third is bad, but it’s better than a half.

I would suggest that this whole “big tent” idea is not working so well. Just ask the Episcopalians…

(For those of you playing along at home, filter the survey by DENKID(22000) to get only those respondents who were raised United Methodist.)

 

[Roy5]

A couple quick points.

**Protestants 'change denominations" easily** because most mainstream Protestants regard other such denominations as part of the same family. I recall having a Methodist minister mention that only 15% of his congregation had been Methodist all their lives. The large majority had gone to different churches in different towns, for example, not because they rejected their former association but because the new church was closer, had a better Sunday School, had a preacher they preferred, had friends and/or neighbors in their new church, etc., etc. Few mainstream Protestants have a strong attachment to a denomination these days. In Canada, for example, the Methodists and Congregationalists, along with most Presbyterians, have 'disappeared'. Why? In 1925 they merged for form the United Church of Canada. There have been innumerable mergers in this country as well.

** One of my hobbies is to visit different churches** and other houses of worship. This past Sunday, for example, I attended a United Church of Christ in the morning and then a Wicca ‘church’ in the afternoon. This grows out of my lifelong interest in different ways that different people seek God. I have found, especially in attending evangelical churches, that a high percentage of the people were ex-Catholics. At this Wiccan church, one of the two ‘reverends’ was a former Catholic, the other raised a ‘pagan’. Several evangelical ministers in this area were former Catholics.

** As for the statistic that 30,000,000 Americans are ex-Catholics** - this has been widely cited. Probably it can be traced to a Pew or Gallup poll? I did have a college professor of religion who indicated years ago that 50% of those who came to America from Europe had been Catholic but that several million became Protestants oln the frontier and elsewhere, in part because at that time there were no Catholic churches or priests in those areas, etc., etc.**

** None of this, of course, proves that one or another church is correct**. **Frankly, I’m not interested in that, as I concluded some time ago that Jesus was less concerned with our church affiliation or our doctrines than with our sincere love of God and one another. “Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?” I greatly admire the outreach of Catholicism to the poor and the sick, etc. In those arenas it merits an A. But over the years, despite my French-Canadian Catholic heritage (paternal line), I have become increasinly alienated from what I find on - say - EWTN.

** Just this morning a Catholic historian on EWTN was railing against Protestantism** and the Reformation. That is no better than those Protestant bigots who twist and misrepresent Catholicism. Religious bigotry and dishonesty is wrong, whatever its source. I had hoped, after Vatican II, that there was a new ecumenism in the air, but I find that certain important segments of Catholicism view ecumenism only as the ‘return’ of Protestants to the one, true church. Sorry, but I reject that concept.

** I am proudly and rather aggressively a ‘big tent’ Christian**, as I strongly believe that Jesus wants that. He found plenty of room for publicans, sinners, Samaritans, and all sorts of ‘heretics’. The whole concept of ‘hated heresies’ - in my view - contradicts the spirit of Christ. I deeply treasure true freedom when it comes to our personal religious faith. I’m sure God honors honest seekers who diverge from one another in their theological thinking. Frankly, there’s a lot we don’t and won’t know in this life, and I’m content to wait to find out the ‘true faith’ in the world to come. My guess is that we’ll all be miles off because of our finite minds that can’t begin to understand this mammoth, mysterious and miraculous universe.
**God bless all of his children - no exceptions!**

 

[Cat_Herder]

A couple quick points.

**Protestants 'change denominations" easily** because most mainstream Protestants regard other such denominations as part of the same family.

So Protestants are an interchangable “family” but Catholicism is as foreign as atheism? Justify your double standard, please.

** One of my hobbies is to visit different churches** and other houses of worship. This past Sunday, for example, I attended a United Church of Christ in the morning and then a Wicca ‘church’ in the afternoon. This grows out of my lifelong interest in different ways that different people seek God. I have found, especially in attending evangelical churches, that a high percentage of the people were ex-Catholics. At this Wiccan church, one of the two ‘reverends’ was a former Catholic, the other raised a ‘pagan’. Several evangelical ministers in this area were former Catholics.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 10:20-21[/BIBLEDRB]

As Paul says, the Eucharist is the antidote.

** As for the statistic that 30,000,000 Americans are ex-Catholics** - this has been widely cited. Probably it can be traced to a Pew or Gallup poll? I did have a college professor of religion who indicated years ago that 50% of those who came to America from Europe had been Catholic but that several million became Protestants oln the frontier and elsewhere, in part because at that time there were no Catholic churches or priests in those areas, etc., etc.****

There are more ex-insert Protestant denomination here than ex-Catholics.

** None of this, of course, proves that one or another church is correct**

. Frankly, I’m not interested in that, as I concluded some time ago that Jesus was less concerned with our church affiliation or our doctrines than with our sincere love of God and one another. “Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?” I greatly admire the outreach of Catholicism to the poor and the sick, etc. In those arenas it merits an A. But over the years, despite my French-Canadian Catholic heritage (paternal line), I have become increasinly alienated from what I find on - say - EWTN.

Do you have a problem with people proclaiming the Gospel? Do you think of EWTN the same way as, say, Joel Osteen?

 

[Roy5]

** I have trouble with EWTN** because its attitude is so bigoted toward other groups, especially Protestants and Masons. This morning (early) I was watching as some Catholic historian was giving a strongly biased (distorted) interpretation of medieval and Reformation-era history. The bitterness toward Protestantism seems so deep on EWTN that it drives people like me away, people firmly committed to ecumenical, pan-Christian unity. I guess I tire of haranging against Protestants just as some Protestants annoy me when they seem so hung-up against Catholicism. They remind me of negative political ads, which alienate me also.

** In contrast I enjoy reading** *Commonweal * the National Catholic Reporter, *Catholic Worker *and US Catholic. I also receive other Catholic journals, * Our *Sunday Visitor, among them. OSV is like EWTN. I much prefer a quiet civil discussion of religious faith rather than denunciations of the religion of others.

** As you can probably see, I’ve had a big problem with Catholicism because of what seems to be its narrowness.** I find few Catholics reflect this attitude. They seem pleased to work together with Protestants without assailing their faith. They embrace the idea of agreeing to disagree. I embrace that same idea.

** It strikes me that there is a war on for the Catholic soul**.There are those who insist that it continue on, quoting ancient and medieval writers and papal encyclicals as though these are authoritative forever. I’ve read many of these same tomes and pronouncements and many of them belong to another age. The church needs to move on in light of new knowledge and discoveries. Otherwise it will increasingly become a relic of the past and someday will be regarded much as we now regard astrology.

** As for disputing church membership **and such, both Catholicism and Protestantism are under attack and we are wasting our energy by battling one another. I returned to my grandparents’ birthplace in Quebec this past summer. The large Catholic church there, which used to dominate, is now up for sale. Only a few old people were attending mass. I was reading not long ago that the Catholic population in Connecticut has dropped from 47% to 38% over the past few years. When in France and Italy not long ago, I found churches nearly empty for mass, though the situation was somewhat better in Ireland and much better in Poland. But even in those two countries Catholicism has lost much of its clout. Not long ago Spain voted to permit same-sex marriage! We used to say the Spanish were more Catholic than the Pope! The situation in Protestant countries, of course, is no better, except perhaps here in the USA.

** The bright spot is the third world,** where Catholic and Protestant missions appear to be very successful.

** But God bless all his children. No exceptions.**

 

[Cat_Herder]

Roy, I think we have definitely gone off the rail; your points (and my prior reply) have nothing to do with Methodists or transubstantiation.

So I am going to move our discussion over to this new thread, “Does Doctrine Matter?,” because that is the real question you are asking.

Reply will be forthcoming.