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GKMotley
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I caught that, just too late, and edited the question out.
VERY slow connection.
VERY slow connection.
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GKMotley
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Baptists are as motley, in their own way, as Anglicans.
As one baptized in the Southern Baptist manner, I can say I never heard any question, re: any other Baptist baptism, raised by any Baptists, anywhere, assuming it was done with the Trinitarian formula and water (immersion, on a person of proper age (of discretion, as they would say).
But who knows?
As one baptized in the Southern Baptist manner, I can say I never heard any question, re: any other Baptist baptism, raised by any Baptists, anywhere, assuming it was done with the Trinitarian formula and water (immersion, on a person of proper age (of discretion, as they would say).
But who knows?
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ATraveller
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Not really. It’s a big misconception for Westerners. Aside from those afflicted by war and violence, most developing countries are improving economically. Regardless, one delegate from Africa said the African church wouldn’t trade the Bible for dollars.
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RealisticCatholic
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Eh, has nothing to do with the point I was making. The Catholic and Orthodox split didn’t occur because of differing conclusions at a council or meeting, etc.
No Protestant church or group of churches can express the same ecclesial structure represented in Acts 15, when the overseers and elders — the Apostles and their associates — met together to definitively decide something that was not explicitly known before, even, apparently, not explicitly taught in Christ’s own ministry. No, Christ gave his church real authority (“bind and loose”), a promise of divine assistance so that the Church under Peter really CAN determine official positions.
Acts 15 did this. The Church proceeded to do this at every council with Peter’s approval. The Catholic Church is the only one that maintains this structure.
Actually, the Catholic Church historically has a high degree of tolerance for heresy. Schism is the great enemy, and the Church at its best does all that it can to keep people together. Hence change occurs slowly in the Church.
But heresy is bad in that it usually always leads to schism, by the heretics’ own choice.
That’s a practical result, but it’s not getting at the crux of the matter. What is Truth, and who has the ability to discern and declare? See Acts 15.
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anon48198893
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St. James presided over the Council of Jerusalem and his word was decisive. St. Peter did not solely convene and bless the opening of this primordial Council; it was an collegial decision of the Apostles to resolve a heresy.
It’s still an ecclesial model absolutely vacant from the governance of numerous protestant communities.
It’s still an ecclesial model absolutely vacant from the governance of numerous protestant communities.
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RealisticCatholic
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It is well known that James led the Jerusalem church. Early Christians like Eusebius say he is the first in the line of bishops there.
But Peter is the shepherd of the entire church, the “rock” and receiver of the keys, which can be shown from numerous places in the NT – Not to mention every early Christian readily got this fact. No one ever said James was above Peter; it was the other way around.
As for Acts 15, Peter spoke and everyone remained silent. James goes on to reiterate what Peter said.
But Peter is the shepherd of the entire church, the “rock” and receiver of the keys, which can be shown from numerous places in the NT – Not to mention every early Christian readily got this fact. No one ever said James was above Peter; it was the other way around.
As for Acts 15, Peter spoke and everyone remained silent. James goes on to reiterate what Peter said.
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Gingersnaps4
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This is how I and many others felt when the Episcopal church first started down that path (I was Episcopalian years ago)…”our parish would uphold traditional Christian morality”etc is what we said. But there was creep…a snowball effect, and it was all overtaken eventually. Only the Catholic Church has the Lord’s promise of being protected by he Holy Spirit so that type of thing happening in other churches is always a possibility.
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HopkinsReb
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Boy does this sound familiar. We said the same thing. Wrong we were.
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Vonsalza
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Think this promotes a great feature in Orthodoxy.Gingersnaps4:
Boy does this sound familiar. We said the same thing. Wrong we were.
As decisions require free assent by the Church at large, it takes generations for anything to eventually change.
This is also Orthodoxy’s worst feature, however.
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HopkinsReb
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It certainly draws me towards Catholicism, which has demonstrated a similarly healthy inertia.
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Vonsalza
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Not at the decision making/dogmatizing front. Over-dogmatization tends to be one of the biggest issues for Catholicism pressing forward - “How do we make this jive with the Council at Clutterbuck in 1287???”.Vonsalza:
It certainly draws me towards Catholicism, which has demonstrated a similarly healthy inertia.
For the Orthodox, the answer to that question is easy. “The Council of Clutterbuck never enjoyed the universal assent of the Church. As such, it fell into dust”.
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HopkinsReb
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We view these questions differently, I think.
But regardless of that view, it shares the resistance to quickly formally adopting the fads of the day.
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ProdglArchitect
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By that logic, there is literally not a single decision in the last millennium that would hold up to scrutiny, since no Orthodox council has ever included all branches of the Orthodox churches / universal assent.
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Vonsalza
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Minus little changes to the liturgy and things like that, you’re largely right. Really.Vonsalza:
By that logic, there is literally not a single decision in the last millennium that would hold up to scrutiny, since no Orthodox council has ever included all branches of Orthodox / universal assent.
And the EO are perfectly “cool” with it. As the Church makes pronouncements that draw its policies closer and closer to the Deposit of Faith (or Holy Tradition, as they call it), why is there a need for additional dogmatizing? They’d argue that they already have it about right.
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ProdglArchitect
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There is need for dogmatization because it prevents backtracking, such as with the question of divorce and remarriage.
Historically, the Orthodox churches held the same belief as Catholics, that marriage was indissoluble, and that remarriage was a no-go. Nowadays, divorce and remarriage are permitted once, which stands in direct contradiction to historical teaching.
Don’t get me wrong, Orthodoxy is still leaps and bounds beyond Protestantism in terms of Truth and adherence to it. If I weren’t Catholic, I’d be Orthodox. That doesn’t change the fact that the only thing truly keeping them from becoming like the Protestant communities is that they can’t agree on anything…
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GKMotley
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Your comment is most understandable. Some of my family went to Rome.
Other Episcopalians have found our Continuing parish as home.
Other Episcopalians have found our Continuing parish as home.
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Vonsalza
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As an aside, universal assent doesn’t have to take place in one building at one specific time. It doesn’t require the Catholic model where everyone gets locked in a room and no one can leave until all agree or the pope makes a decree.
You’ve got to admit, they get to avoid things like the Galileo Affair since it’s so difficult for them to do something like declaring geocentrism as magisterial in the first place.
And on marriage, I think they permit 3 marriages, but the latter ceremonies are not particularly celebratory. Some describe them as a bit penitential. And the required annulments get more difficult to obtain.
The historical issue on divorce in the Church is a bit more complicated than a Catholic view would suggest. The Shepherd of Hermas mandated divorce if your spouse was unfaithful and unrepentant, permitted remarriage and mandated the return to a repentant spouse if they asked forgiveness before your next marriage. Origen wasn’t hostile to remarriage in the case of the unfaithful spouse, The council at Arles recommended celibacy if a marriage failed due to unfaithfulness, but stopped short of naming remarriage a punishable offense.
The present Catholic view became dominant in the west after the 5th century. But even then exceptions abound. I think Newt Gingrich is on his 3rd Catholic marriage…
The Orthodox just have better economy on the issue, imo.
You’ve got to admit, they get to avoid things like the Galileo Affair since it’s so difficult for them to do something like declaring geocentrism as magisterial in the first place.
And on marriage, I think they permit 3 marriages, but the latter ceremonies are not particularly celebratory. Some describe them as a bit penitential. And the required annulments get more difficult to obtain.
The historical issue on divorce in the Church is a bit more complicated than a Catholic view would suggest. The Shepherd of Hermas mandated divorce if your spouse was unfaithful and unrepentant, permitted remarriage and mandated the return to a repentant spouse if they asked forgiveness before your next marriage. Origen wasn’t hostile to remarriage in the case of the unfaithful spouse, The council at Arles recommended celibacy if a marriage failed due to unfaithfulness, but stopped short of naming remarriage a punishable offense.
The present Catholic view became dominant in the west after the 5th century. But even then exceptions abound. I think Newt Gingrich is on his 3rd Catholic marriage…
The Orthodox just have better economy on the issue, imo.
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Vonsalza
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But enough about Orthodoxy. Back to Methodism.
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ProdglArchitect
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For starters, the whole Galileo affair is completely overblown. What people think they know about it is a Protestant/Atheistic caricature of the facts, but that’s not important right now.
To me, what you just described sounds like happening to avoid trouble through sheer incompetence. I know you probably don’t understand it that way, but a lack of action is not a positive avoidance.
You’re probably right that we should get back to the topic at hand. I apologize for bringing up the marriage thing, it’s a can of worms we really don’t need to be opening in this thread >_>
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Vonsalza
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(10 char req)
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