Methodists look to change church's LGBT policies

[rightness]

Tommy999:

For Catholics who have been following this issue with the UMC, I have a question. If you were advising the UMC conservatives who oppose homosexual ordinations and marriage, what advice would you give?

I would suggest, for a definite period of time:

• Pray - constantly
• Fast - periodically
• Avoid the media as much as possible, especially any kind of relgious or secular current events
• If possible, seek out spiritual direction, not to help you understand denominations, but to facilitate you coming closer to God.
• Try not to even mentally compare denomination or congregation options during the first two thirds of your discernment period. Last third, do some specific thinking. Remember to differentiate the (current denominational) Faith from the particular Church. Base your choice more on “where is the Truth currently taught” than on where I feel comfortable.
• Remember the best choice for you might not be for someone else.
• Choose.

I would also like to add that people who converted to this and that religion, Catholic to Protestant, Protestant to Catholic, could help give an answer, and do this to supplement the truths you are finding yourself.

As a cradle Catholic, listening to Scott Hahn’s conversion story cassette tape long ago didn’t convert me, because I’m obviously already Catholic, but it made me so interested in my own faith that it helped empower and reinforce the faith in me. I learned so much from this period of inspiration that I could never fall away.

 

[commenter]

Historically Methodism was wildly successful in the USA. It took a “middle position”. It balanced evangelism with the soup kitchen. It was kinda sacramental, scriptural but not too fundamentalist, tried not to over define doctrine. It flourished especially in the Middle of the USA.

In small towns that could only afford one Protestant church, it would often be Methodist, since that was most compatible. I bet the family on “Leave it to Beaver” was Methodist.

Sadly, their passion for compatibility with American people left them vulnerable for compatible with American culture, which has aggressively secularized since the late 1960s.

Thus, the pastor of the largest UMC congregation - in Kansas, of course -
can describe himself as Evangelical, and “prolife, with a heavy heart”, as he promotes legal abortion.

Where the secular media goes, the UMC will go. Last week’s “victory” is just a very brief hit on the Pause button.

 

[Tommy999]

As a Methodist, I think yours is a fair assessment of the history of Methodist Christianity. However, there is hope. The last vote was encouraging to those of us who are more conservative and believe in interpreting doctrine from a biblical perspective rather than caving in to popular cultural pressures. Itwin mentioned how the Southern Baptists became more conservative over time when more conservatives stepped into leadership positions. In my view, if more conservative leaders emerge in Methodist leadership who are willing to enforce the rules instead of allowing permissiveness to reign in order to “keep the peace” within the different factions within the UMC, I think there is a good future ahead for Methodism. Methodists might help shape the culture instead of the other way around. However, if “keeping the peace at all costs” is the mantra of the denomination moving forward, we are only delaying the inevitable breakup of the denomination, which is disheartening. However, I consider myself a Christian first and Methodist second, so may God’s Will be done.

 

[Tommy999]

Just a quick observation about Catholics… while I have a deep and abiding respect and admiration for Catholicism and wouldn’t be here on CAF if I didn’t have curiosity and a desire to learn more about it, and since I consider Catholicism to be the big brother and mentor to all Christian denominations – despite all this – I sometimes sense a feeling of “triumphalism” in some of the responses by Catholics to the plight of Methodists.

When I first came to CAF, I naively thought that since Catholics don’t break up and form other Christian denominations like Protestants do, they must all therefore be united on all matters of faith and morals. I know that if I ever were to become Catholic, I would not do it halfheartedly – I would be all in or not all all.

However, I have found that in trying to objectively follow different threads on CAF, Catholics also seem to run the gamut of liberal, moderate and conservative factions, just like Methodists. For example, I see the pro-Pope Francis faction versus those who criticize and disagree with him on virtually everything. I also see a big difference in attitudes between what I would call the traditionalist faction whose legalistic views sometimes make me cringe and feel like I am a either a lesser Christian for being Protestant, or perhaps an outright heretic who is going to hell unless I become Catholic and start speaking in Latin all the time.

There are also what I call the ‘Vatican II’ Catholics, with whom I agree on more things. For example, I am a big fan of Father John Ricardo on EWTN radio, as well as Father Larry Richards. I think I could possibly become a Catholic and join their parishes if I lived in their area of the country.

While I still view Catholicism favorably, I sometimes wonder if Catholics have many of the same issues as Methodists do, with the main difference being that Methodists openly debate these issues in conference out in the open while some Catholics claim the mantle of unity but are, in some ways, like a married couple who don’t get along, giving each other the cold shoulder and are – for all intents and purposes – like an estranged married couple who stay together for the “sake of the kids” (getting converts), even though the kids see through the facade and perceive more than they realize.

My apologies if this post offends anyone. That was not my intent. Just wanted to get that off my chest as a Methodist who sees others living in glass houses appearing, in my opinion, to be throwing stones at Methodism. Perhaps I am being too sensitive. If that is the case, please forgive me and pray for me and all Methodists. These are difficult times for us.

 

[commenter]

As a Methodist, I think yours is a fair assessment of the history of Methodist Christianity. However, there is hope. The last vote was encouraging to those of us who are more conservative and believe in interpreting doctrine from a biblical perspective rather than caving in to popular cultural pressures. Itwin mentioned how the Southern Baptists became more conservative over time when more conservatives stepped into leadership positions. In my view, if more conservative leaders emerge in Methodist leadership who are willing to enforce the rules instead of allowing permissiveness to reign in order to “keep the peace” within the different factions within the UMC, I think there is a good future ahead for Methodism. Methodists might help shape the culture instead of the other way around. However, if “keeping the peace at all costs” is the mantra of the denomination moving forward, we are only delaying the inevitable breakup of the denomination, which is disheartening. However, I consider myself a Christian first and Methodist second, so may God’s Will be done.

A post from one person on the inside, with direct experience of Methodism or whatever, is far more informative than broad statements by Catholics who have a one-size-fits-all view of Protestants, and everything else.

When you have a template (and I think Catholicism is an awfully good template) the temptation is not to notice important case specific data, which can vary.

 

[Thorolfr]

In my view, if more conservative leaders emerge in Methodist leadership who are willing to enforce the rules instead of allowing permissiveness to reign in order to “keep the peace” within the different factions within the UMC, I think there is a good future ahead for Methodism. Methodists might help shape the culture instead of the other way around. However, if “keeping the peace at all costs” is the mantra of the denomination moving forward, we are only delaying the inevitable breakup of the denomination, which is disheartening. However, I consider myself a Christian first and Methodist second, so may God’s Will be done.

I can’t imagine most of those ministers who have been performing same-sex marriages and ordaining gay clergy just deciding not to do those things anymore. And if the rules are enforced and they are disciplined or dismissed for breaking the rules, it’s just going to lead to more conflict. And will liberal congregations who are more inclusive for LGBT members and support same-sex marriage going to allow their ministers to be dismissed without putting up a fight? I would think that many of these congregations would decide to leave the UMC and perhaps form another Methodist denomination. If that were to happen, how would that not be a breakup of the denomination that you predict would inevitably happen by “keeping the peace at all costs”?

And as to Methodists shaping the culture instead of the other way around, how do you envision that happening with respect to issues like same-sex marriage? Polls have shown that a large majority of people under 30 support same-sex marriage, so overall support will just continue to grow as older generations pass away. Most younger people are either not religious or for the small percentage that are, they have no denominational loyalty.

 

[commenter]

Tommy999:

In my view, if more conservative leaders emerge in Methodist leadership who are willing to enforce the rules instead of allowing permissiveness to reign in order to “keep the peace” within the different factions within the UMC, I think there is a good future ahead for Methodism. Methodists might help shape the culture instead of the other way around. However, if “keeping the peace at all costs” is the mantra of the denomination moving forward, we are only delaying the inevitable breakup of the denomination, which is disheartening. However, I consider myself a Christian first and Methodist second, so may God’s Will be done.

I can’t imagine most of those ministers who have been performing same-sex marriages and ordaining gay clergy just deciding not to do those things anymore. And if the rules are enforced and they are disciplined or dismissed for breaking the rules, it’s just going to lead to more conflict. And will liberal congregations who are more inclusive for LGBT members and support same-sex marriage going to allow their ministers to be dismissed without putting up a fight? I would think that many of these congregations would decide to leave the UMC and perhaps form another Methodist denomination. If that were to happen, how would that not be a breakup of the denomination that you predict would inevitably happen by “keeping the peace at all costs”?

And as to Methodists shaping the culture instead of the other way around, how do you envision that happening with respect to issues like same-sex marriage? Polls have shown that a large majority of people under 30 support same-sex marriage, so overall support will just continue to grow as older generations pass away. Most younger people are either not religious or for the small percentage that are, they have no denominational loyalty.

"We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong.” G. K. Chesterton

 

[ltwin]

I can’t imagine most of those ministers who have been performing same-sex marriages and ordaining gay clergy just deciding not to do those things anymore.

I agree.

And if the rules are enforced and they are disciplined or dismissed for breaking the rules, it’s just going to lead to more conflict.

And if the rules are not enforced, it will also lead to more conflict. So either way, there will be conflict.

And will liberal congregations who are more inclusive for LGBT members and support same-sex marriage going to allow their ministers to be dismissed without putting up a fight? I would think that many of these congregations would decide to leave the UMC and perhaps form another Methodist denomination.

If they are fundamentally opposed to what the United Methodist Church teaches, then maybe they should leave. While it is unfortunate, I don’t think at this point the loss of at least some churches can be avoided. Either conservative or liberals are going to leave (maybe both). At least afterwards, both sides can begin to move on beyond the constant infighting and move forward as separate bodies in one mind and one accord.

If that were to happen, how would that not be a breakup of the denomination that you predict would inevitably happen by “keeping the peace at all costs”?

It would be better for all involved if those who disagree with the denomination’s current stance be given the option of a “gracious exit.” It’s not ideal, but it’s better than what happened in the Episcopal Church with everybody suing each other and wasting millions of dollars and ending up with empty church buildings that were sold to Muslim congregations or property developers.

The truth is, the Methodists have irreconcilable differences. Rather than pretending otherwise, they need to start getting real and stop pretending that the house isn’t on fire.

And as to Methodists shaping the culture instead of the other way around, how do you envision that happening with respect to issues like same-sex marriage?

The Methodists probably can’t really “shape” the culture anymore. Those days are over. What is left for the Methodists is to be a witness to/against the culture when that culture departs from God’s will for human flourishing.

Polls have shown that a large majority of people under 30 support same-sex marriage, so overall support will just continue to grow as older generations pass away.

Perhaps, but there are other churches who have embraced the prevailing wisdom on human sexuality. It has not led to any kind of revival or halting in the membership decline. Perhaps its too early to tell if the Episcopal Church and others who have embraced LGBT sexuality will find new found relevance.

It’s not like there is a huge demographic of young people saying, “I would become a practicing Christian if only I had a LGBT affirming church in my city.”

 

[GKMotley]

We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong.” G. K. Chesterton

The Catholic Church and Conversion, Chap. V, “The Exception Proves the Rule.”
British ed., 1929, p. 95.

 

[ATraveller]

Splits are unfortunate but nothing new. American Methodism has seen many splits. The Free Methodists broke off from a predecessor of the UMC more than a century ago.

Nothing like the splits, mergers and reunions in American Presbyterianism though. An updated version would include the new ECO that broke off from the PC(USA) not too long ago.

File:Presbyterian Family Connections.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

 

[Thorolfr]

It’s not like there is a huge demographic of young people saying, “I would become a practicing Christian if only I had a LGBT affirming church in my city.”

That’s why I don’t really have a lot of hope for Christianity in general in the US or in most western countries. Just look at what has happened in Great Britain. According to Callum G. Brown, The Death of Christian Britain: Understanding secularisation 1800-2000 (Routledge, 2001), “So weak are the demographics of church connection that the government is now contemplating disestablishing the Church of England.” That was in 2001, so I’m not sure whether that is still something being considered.

On pp. 3-4, Brown writes:

In the year 2000 less than 8 per cent of people attend Sunday worship in any week, less than a quarter are members of any church, and fewer than a tenth of children attend a Sunday school. Fewer than half of couples get married in church, and about a third of couples cohabit without marriage. In England only a fifth of babies get baptized in the Church England, and in Scotland one estimate is that about a fifth are baptized in either the Church of Scotland or the Roman Catholic Church. By some calculations, as few as 3 per cent of people regularly attend church in some counties of England, and in most the non-churchgoers represent over 90 per cent of the population. If church participation is falling, all figures for Christian affiliation are at their lowest point in recorded history. Christian church membership accounts for less than 12 per cent of the people and is falling.

 

[Thorolfr]

Splits are unfortunate but nothing new. American Methodism has seen many splits. The Free Methodists broke off from a predecessor of the UMC more than a century ago.

Nothing like the splits, mergers and reunions in American Presbyterianism though. An updated version would include the new ECO that broke off from the PC(USA) not too long ago.

Lutherans aren’t much different.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) has only been around since 1988 and was a merger of the American Lutheran Church (ALC), the Lutheran Church in America (LCA) and the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches (AELC). The ALC was formed between 1960 and 1963 by merging the United Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church and the Lutheran Free Church. The LCA was formed in 1962 by merging the United Lutheran Church in America (which was itself a merger of three earlier Lutheran synods in 1918), the Augustana Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church of America and the American Evangelical Lutheran Church. The AELC was formed in 1976 from 250 congregations that had left the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod when it was taken over by the conservatives. The AELC brought approximately 100,000 Lutherans into the ELCA.

 

[ATraveller]

The AELC was formed in 1976 from 250 congregations that had left the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod when it was taken over by the conservatives.

The LCMS was always going to be conservative because of its roots. It was always confessional (quia rather than quatenus). It was founded as such after the bizarre idea Lutheran and Reformed churches in Prussia could be merged despite theological differences. A brief move towards liberalism in the 50’s and 60’s wasn’t going to go far because of what the LCMS started as. 250 breaking links with over 5000 congregations reveals the conservative nature of the LCMS.

 

[commenter]

I’m tempted to put in a joke about the Split P’s, but this is tragic, not humorous.

 

[adgloriam]

@ltwin @Thorolfr

Interesting series of posts guys.

I’m having some difficulty (as a non-US citizen) to grasp all of this.

 

[adgloriam]

large majority of people under 30 support same-sex marriage, so overall support will just continue to grow as older generations pass away.

Well, because those now under 30 will grow old themselves and a shift in opinion generally accompanies age.

It’s said people tend to becoming more conservative as they grow older.

What does generally prevail, is tolerance held in their youth more than endorsement which might shift. (by analogy, folks who smoked and drank will be more comprehensive although perhaps less endorsing. Whilst they may shift from apologists to opponents, they will keep tolerant and comprehensive as in their youth.)

 

[ltwin]

I’m having some difficulty (as a non-US citizen) to grasp all of this.

Are you from Greece (looking at your profile pic)?

Anyway, what don’t you understand? Is it the situation surrounding gay marriage or how the United Methodist Church works?

 

[commenter]

Polls have shown that a large majority of people under 30 support same-sex marriage, so overall support will just continue to grow as older generations pass away.

People are far more willing to steal than they used to be. They’ll steal your car, your spouse, your reputation, your credit identity.

This trend is confirmed, by data. The fact that this, as well as your citing the bandwagon also moving on same sex marriage, does not prove it is good. Some trends may be good, but no bandwagon, no peer pressure automatically good just because it’s a trend.

 

[adgloriam]

adgloriam:

I’m having some difficulty (as a non-US citizen) to grasp all of this.

Anyway, what don’t you understand? Is it the situation surrounding gay marriage or how the United Methodist Church works?

Well, the organization and logic governing protestant congregations is completely new to me. Because there are few protestants in my country, and with small communities these “fracturing issues” tend not to cause division.

Then, there’s the other issue of how Protestants integrate LGBT persons into their community. Which is also odd, like for example: I can’t “wrap my head around” what happened with the Anglicans/Scandinavian churches because of ordination of woman and LGBT’s on top of that.

So, I do think it’s interesting (as if something from another world) to read about it.

 

[ltwin]

Well, the organization and logic governing protestant congregations is completely new to me. Because there are few protestants in my country, and with small communities these “fracturing issues” tend not to cause division.

The irony is this, the UMC is considered the most hierarchical Mainline Protestant denomination in the US!

Then, there’s the other issue of how Protestants integrate LGBT persons into their community. Which is also odd, like for example: I can’t “wrap my head around” what happened with the Anglicans/Scandinavian churches because of ordination of woman and LGBT’s on top of that.

So, I do think it’s interesting (as if something from another world) to read about it.

The issue is that mainline Protestants (and to some degree but in different ways this applies to evangelical denominations as well) have lost any kind of common theology.

It used to be that Methodists were united around a common theological framework inherited from Wesley–an evangelical conversion driven piety structured through a sacramental theology and connectional church that focused on the pursuit of “Perfect Love” or “Christian Perfection.” That entire Wesleyan tradition has essentially withered away. The liberals are trying to replace it with a religious version of secular social justice. The conservatives would like to recover the traditional Wesleyan emphasis, but I’m not sure they’ve figured out how to do that.

If you take any of the other mainline denominations (PCUSA Presbyterians, ELCA Lutherans, American Baptists, and the Episcopal Church), you can also see where they essentially have lost any kind of unique confessional identity. To give them a reason to exist, the liberals who dominate these churches attempt to fill the doctrinal and confessional void by focusing on social justice.

That’s my interpretation of the mainline Protestant crisis.