Methodists look to change church's LGBT policies

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To give you a perspective from a German Protestant theologian visiting the US in the 1930s, here is what Dietrich Bonhoeffer had to say about the state of American mainline theology:
While Bonhoeffer acknowledged that the students fell into several basic groups, he noted that “without doubt the most vigorous . . . have turned their back on all genuine theology and study many economic and political problems. Here, they feel, is the renewal of the Gospel for our time.” And while the students showed impressive personal sacrifice in providing food and lodging for some thirty unemployed people over the winter, still he said, “It must not, however, be left unmentioned that the theological education of this group is virtually nil, and the self-assurance which lightly makes mock of any specifically theological question is unwarranted and naïve.”

Bonhoeffer’s observations about the American churches, especially in New York City, were also particularly critical. “The sermon has been reduced to parenthetical church remarks about newspaper events. As long as I’ve been here, I have heard only one sermon in which you could hear something like a genuine proclamation.” He went on to ask, “One big question continually attracting my attention in view of these facts is whether one here really can still speak about Christianity?”

In a significant summary of his observations of the American churches he had witnessed, with the exception of several African- American churches that impressed him deeply, Bonhoeffer wrote, “In New York they preach about virtually everything, only one thing is not addressed, or is addressed so rarely that I have as yet been unable to hear it, namely, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the cross, sin and forgiveness, death and life.” Just what has taken the place of the Christian message? According to Bonhoeffer: “An ethical and social idealism borne by a faith in progress that—who knows how—claims the right to call itself ‘Christian.’ And in the place of the church as the congregation of believers in Christ there stands the church as a social corporation.”
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ltwin said:
“Perfect Love” or “Christian Perfection.” That entire Wesleyan tradition has essentially withered away. The liberals are trying to replace it with a religious version of secular social justice. The conservatives would like to recover the traditional Wesleyan emphasis, but I’m not sure they’ve figured out how to do that.

If you take any of the other mainline denominations (PCUSA Presbyterians, ELCA Lutherans, American Baptists, and the Episcopal Church), you can also see where they essentially have lost any kind of unique confessional identity. To give them a reason to exist, the liberals who dominate these churches attempt to fill the doctrinal and confessional void by focusing on social justice.

That’s my interpretation of the mainline Protestant crisis.
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Both these posts are excellent !! One more contemporary the other more historical. And While Bonhoeffer’s remarks have an excellent comedic touch to his portray of idiosyncrasies bound to appear. Your elaboration follows his excerpt in that regard, and I find both to be a delicious read.
 
Atrocious. They can quibble left and right and split here and there but they fail to realize that the ultimate truth is with Mother Church!

“God made everyone and everyone deserves to be happy by following the rules!”
-Me 2019

With Mother Church, our rules are firm and strong and we will not and cannot budge or else demons may sneak in and tear mother church even further apart than it is!

Stay strong everyone!
 
I didn’t want to start a new thread for this, so here’s the question:

Do you think at the next hypothetical ecumenical council of the Catholic Church, sexuality should be a major issue discussed?
 
No. I think the teachings on sexuality will be clarified more by the Magisterium. Also, the teachings are entrenched and unchangeable. But I do not think we need a council to clarify them.

As far as evangelization. I strongly believe God is behind the picks for Pope. Therefore, Pope Francis’s change in tone is the will of God to give society one last chance for mercy.

We do not need to discuss morality more with people who disagree. We need to keep people in the church at all costs, fight any theologians rejecting the infallible or non-infallible Magisterium, and keep the emphasis on sexuality with the devoted Catholics who will not be turned off by it and are most receptive to it (in a culture hostile to Catholicism).
 
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I just think there is a lot the church is still learning about certain sexual areas, like transgenderism.

Depending on what transgenderism actually IS will affect how the unchanging truths of the faith are applied to it.
 
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Transgender surgery is obviously a mutilation and a sterilization. On the other hand, it is not intrinsically evil for a man to dress up as a woman, but is likely wrong in the circumstances if it promotes an ideology of gender transition and causes scandal. The same can be said for men being allowed to use women’s bathrooms and referring to transgender individuals by the sex they are impersonating. It also may violate modesty and proper roles of men and women. Further, one’s intentions need to be questioned. As far as hormone blockers and cross-sex hormones, once again these are quite likely immoral. Chemical castration is different than surgical castration and it is true the Magisterium needs to clarify. But they should be yellow lighted for the time being.

I do not think we need a council to discuss these more obscure issues of sexuality and gender. Simply because these may not be inherently wrong, but just circumstantially wrong, and because the Holy Office can issue a decree or two/ give its guidance pretty easily without a council.
 
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RealisticCatholic said:
Depending on what transgenderism actually IS will affect how the unchanging truths of the faith are applied to it.
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Ecclesiastes 1

What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done,
and there is nothing new under the sun.
 
RealisticCatholic said:
I didn’t want to start a new thread for this, so here’s the question:

Do you think at the next hypothetical ecumenical council of the Catholic Church, sexuality should be a major issue discussed?
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What needs to be addressed, by Catholics, Methodists, and other denominations, is the rising power of Secular Humanism, and how to respond to it. The fact that the media is far more powerful today, and is far more concentrated in the hands of a few people, is more important than this or that issue the media is commanding our attention to, at the moment.
Too many Catholics and Methodists are floating along with the current, rather than objectively evaluating the current.
 
I listened to a Methodist Pastor’s response to the council’s decision on sexuality. I found his position to be shocking. I will quote his statement on marriage, but his position toward LGBTQ people is liberal, inclusive and accepting. Re: Marriage: “I will try very hard to be a Pastor of all opinions, especially when we have a difference of opinion on something that is not central to the Christian faith; nowhere in The Apostle’s Creed does it say a Christian holds to THIS view on marriage or sexuality. This is a uh, uh , non, uh, this is a negotiable issue in the Christian community.” He said marriage and sexuality are NOT central to the Christian faith and that it is NEGOTIABLE. He stumbled over his words there almost as if he couldn’t believe what was coming out of his mouth. This is bad.
 
Raoul212 said:
nowhere in The Apostle’s Creed does it say a Christian holds to THIS view on marriage or sexuality.
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This is common, I find, among mainline Protestants who argue for same-sex marriage in the church. I heard it among Episcopalians (the creeds say nothing about gay people! . . . imagine that). They’re taking a true fact – the creeds do not contain a complete doctrinal system – and then deriving from that fact that any particular view of marriage (and anything else they’d like to change or ignore) is not an essential belief.

It’s very odd for a Methodist pastor to take this line of argument since while they do profess the creeds Methodists have never claimed that only the creeds are essential to Christian belief. As a UMC pastor he would have affirmed the following at his ordination:

“Are you persuaded that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments contain all things necessary for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and are the unique and authoritative standard for the church’s faith and life?”

And

“Will you be loyal to The United Methodist Church, accepting and upholding its order, liturgy, doctrine, and discipline, defending it against all doctrines contrary to God’s Holy Word, and committing yourself to be accountable with those serving with you, and to the bishop and those who are appointed to supervise your ministry?”

Doesn’t mention anything about the creeds.
 
If marriage is negotiable, then I guess it could be anything I want it to be, right. What if I were to say, “In my opinion, marriages should only last ten years. After that, people get bored and it’s time to move on.” I should be allowed to do that because the Apostle’s Creed doesn’t say marriage is permanent. The Methodist Church is doomed to separate over this issue. With Pastor’s like this, who openly disobey, there’s no other option. Sad
 
ATraveller said:
many of the so-called progressives say they will not take the gracious exit route because they want to battle for changes to the Book of Discipline.
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Sounds familiar, if we just replace “Book of Discipline” with “Catechism.”
 
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Raoul212 said:
If marriage is negotiable, then I guess it could be anything I want it to be, right. What if I were to say, “In my opinion, marriages should only last ten years. After that, people get bored and it’s time to move on.” I should be allowed to do that because the Apostle’s Creed doesn’t say marriage is permanent. The Methodist Church is doomed to separate over this issue. With Pastor’s like this, who openly disobey, there’s no other option. Sad
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One famous “Catholic writer” had publicly rejected almost all the doctrinal and moral truths of Catholicism, including monotheism. She was asked why don’t you separate from the Church?

Her answer was “because the Church has the Xerox machine”. This has usually been the pattern in mainlines Protestantism, too. Even if the liberals are able to take their office equipment in a split, most will stay inside, where they can get media attention as they lobby for secularism. They want to pull the whole denomination in their direction.
 
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mcq72 said:
Well, would you schism if the CC embraced homosexuality ?
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Do you mean change church teaching that marriage is between a man and a woman and all sexual activity outside of the covenant of marriage is sinful?

It is impossible for the church to change her teaching on this. The church is infallible on the teachings of morality.
 
vsedriver said:
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mcq72:
Well, would you schism if the CC embraced homosexuality ?
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Do you mean change church teaching that marriage is between a man and a woman and all sexual activity outside of the covenant of marriage is sinful?

It is impossible for the church to change her teaching on this. The church is infallible on the teachings of morality.
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True.
The Church can however modify its pastoral practices. It can oppose prejudice against individuals. It can, and does, offer group support, such as Courage and Encourage.
 
commenter said:
The Church can however modify its pastoral practices. It can oppose prejudice against individuals. It can, and does, offer group support, such as Courage and Encourage
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The church already opposes prejudice against individuals so that would not be any kind of pastoral change in church teaching or practice.

And the church has always had various support groups so that too would not be any kind of pastoral change. I’m sure there will be new types of support groups in the future to help people grow in their faith no matter what cross they are bearing.
 
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