Methodists

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snowman10:
Exporter,

I agree that MOST individual churches do exactly what you say, though there are a few that do preach about sin, but not many. It really is an “i’m okay, you’re okay” denomination.

All my love,
DU
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I’ve been a UM pastor for 18 years… and I’ve never been appointed to such a church… or even HEARD of such a church. We use a lectionary just like you do (so sin is unavoidable), and Wesleyan theology is very clear about sin, grace, confession of sin, and repentance.

I’m sure there churches out there like what you describe… just as there are Catholic parishes that celebrate hootenanny masses, believe in birth control, etc.

Someone mentioned about Methodism’s belief about Real Presence. We embrace Real Presence, but not in rationalistic/Thomistic terminology. Here is the statement from the official document, This Holy Mystery:
The Christian church has struggled through the centuries to understand just how Christ is present in the Eucharist. Arguments and divisions have occurred over the matter. The Wesleyan tradition affirms the reality of Christ’s presence, although it does not claim to be able to explain it fully. John and Charles Wesley’s 166 Hymns on the Lord’s Supper are our richest resource for study in order to appreciate the Wesleyan understanding of the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. One of these hymns expresses well both the reality and the mystery: “O the Depth of Love Divine,” stanzas 1 and 4 (The United Methodist Hymnal, 627):
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O the depth of love divine,
the unfathomable grace!
Who shall say how bread and wine
God into us conveys!
How the bread his flesh imparts,
how the wine transmits his blood,
fills his faithful people’s hearts
with all the life of God!
Sure and real is the grace,
the manner be unknown;
only meet us in thy ways
and perfect us in one.
Let us taste the heavenly powers,
Lord, we ask for nothing more.
Thine to bless, 'tis only ours
to wonder and adore.…
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United Methodists, along with other Christian traditions, have tried to provide clear and faithful interpretations of Christ’s presence in the Holy Meal. Our tradition asserts the real, personal, living presence of Jesus Christ. For United Methodists, the Lord’s Supper is anchored in the life of the historical Jesus of Nazareth, but is not primarily a remembrance or memorial. We do not embrace the medieval doctrine of transubstantiation, although we do believe that the elements are essential tangible means through which God works. We understand the divine presence in temporal and relational terms. In the Holy Meal of the church, the past, present, and future of the living Christ come together by the power of the Holy Spirit so that we may receive and embody Jesus Christ as God’s saving gift for the whole world.
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Pax,

O+
 
O.S. Luke:
I’ve been a UM pastor for 18 years… and I’ve never been appointed to such a church… or even HEARD of such a church. We use a lectionary just like you do (so sin is unavoidable), and Wesleyan theology is very clear about sin, grace, confession of sin, and repentance.

I’m sure there churches out there like what you describe… just as there are Catholic parishes that celebrate hootenanny masses, believe in birth control, etc.

Someone mentioned about Methodism’s belief about Real Presence. We embrace Real Presence, but not in rationalistic/Thomistic terminology. Here is the statement from the official document, This Holy Mystery:

Pax,

O+
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Chalk it up to different experiences. Yes there are Catholic parishes that neglect to mention Birth Control. That was never said. But that makes the clergy at that Parish accountable, not parishoners. Same goes for Methodism (which I still belong to until I convert). As for the Real Presence, it is NOT the Real Presence that has been accpeted for 2000 years by the Church so the answer is NO!

I thank the UMC for helping build a faith background and I am eternally grateful.

DU
 
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wabrams:
It’s not really that wishy-washy, just like any other church people twist it to fit their own agenda’s. As far as abortion, it’s only seen as acceptable when the mother’s life is at risk. We Methodist’s don’t believe oyu use it for birth control.
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I respectfully disagree. Over the years, their position on
abortion has been all over the map. Do some research and
you’ll see that the UMC lent support to groups that lobbied
the courts to make abortion on demand the law of the land.
Specifically, look up the activities of the UM Womens Division
(UMW) and the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice,
(RCRC), formerly known as the Religious Coalition for Abortion
Rights (RCAR). Read “****The Shame At 100 Maryland Avenue”
****nprcouncil.org/newsletters/nprc1990spring.htm

It was only recently (around 2000?) that the UMC teaching on
abortion has been changed to a position that discourages
abortion in most circumstances.

Now what I’m writing about is the official teaching and not
what the rank-and-file members believe, because I think
they are free to pick and choose from the UMC teaching,
just like most non-Catholic Christians do.

Don’t take my word for it, go to www.google.com and do
your own research, and continue to pray for the Methodists.

Jeff
 
First of all, I think that we all need to pray for one another. In that spirit, I sincerely thank you for the suggestion to pray for Methodists.The good Lord knows, we all need all the prayer we can get in these days.
You mentioned UMW. The “women’s division” represents the far left wing of Methodism. How & why this came about is too long a story, but I would caution folks not to mistake their statements for offficial pronouncements from the denomination. We are struggling to bring them back to orthodoxy.(This is comparable to some of the far left groups who plague the Catholic church, & every other church). UMW has almost total autonomy…therefore are a prime target for dissidents to become entrenched. Some local churches have banned UMW from meeting in the church building, in fact! But I repeat that they do not speak for the great majority of Methodists–as the cited article points out.
😉 If you don’t blame:nope: me for the UMW, I promise not to blame :nope: you all for :eek: Andrew Greeley…👋 Peace & love.
 
Zooey,

Before I begin, I want to preface my remarks again by saying
that probaby the rank-and-file Methodists do not differ from
us Catholics on knowing that all abortion is murder. The problem
I have is not with the Methodist people, it is with the actions
of their leadership.

I understand that the UMW is far left. However, this does not
refute the fact that the UMC lent support for the RCAR and all
of their horrible actions. I don’t know where the leaderships’
activities fell in the spectrum of honest omission to blatant
deception regarding the disclosure of this to the rank-and-fiile.
My opinion is that it leans more towards deception based on
the fact that the current (as of 2000) teaching is that abortion
is wrong in most cases.

Further, I stand behind what I wrote that UMC has been
all over the map regarding abortion. All one has to do is
look at their position on abortion in the 1970s and compare
it to their position today.

I am grateful to God that their leadership is getting closer
to the Catholic Church’s teaching, and I pray for the people
in the Methodist religon.

As for Fr. Greeley, I have read a transcript of him on
MSNBC. In my opinion, he’s dangerously close to
heresy, if not a heretic already. A good priest friend
of mine once said, “Priests either go to heaven or hell,
but they never go alone.” Father Greeley’s warped theology
is dangerous. He can’t see the difference in killing the
innocent (abortion) vs. killing a murderer (capital punishment).
He also said
MATTHEWS: And speaking of which, I do believe that the Roman Catholic Church had said that capital punishment is wrong, too.
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(CROSSTALK)
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GREELEY: The pope has said that, except in extraordinary circumstances. So, by those standards, we shouldn‘t let George Bush in the Catholic Church because Texas killed so many people in their gas chamber.
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So according to Fr. Greeley twisted reasoning, even if George
Bush (a Methodist against abortion) were a murder and
repented, he should not be in the Catholic Church, right?

However, the parallel you’re trying to fabricate doesn’t work.
The teachings of the Catholic Church on abortion are
immutable doctrine. The Methodists have varied their position.
Fr. Greeley, if he doesn’t teach and believe these doctrines,
is a heretic and excommunicated ipso facto. There is
nothing the UMW can do to be excommunicated from the UMC
because there is no such thing in the UMC.

God bless you and all Methodists,

Jeff
 
Hi, Jeffrey,
I don’t think that we are that far apart in our understanding. My point is that I think there is a comparison to be made between the far left in any church…Everybody has them.
It is true that we don’t have as much that we can do to offload those who are out there as the Catholics do…I would just hope that in any discussion of the beliefs of Methodists, Catholics, or whomever, that we would not judge one another by the worst offenders among us.That would be unfair to both sides.
I only spoke up on the abortion issue in this thread because there was an attempt to compare the Catholic catechism to the Methodist Discipline.This is a very false comparison, as I pointed out. The statements in the LRB are about what can incur penalties (comparable to excomunication).It is not about what the ethical teachings of the church really are.
I still hold, however, that the UMW leaders are (& for some time have been) very close to heresy, just as Fr Greeley & co are…The problem in the 1st case is that we have (as you point out) less ability to act on them; in the 2nd case, it seems to be that no one* will* act on them.
I will continue to pray for your church. I fervently hope that you will continue to pray for mine. God bless.
 
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JeffreyGerard:
Zooey,

However, the parallel you’re trying to fabricate doesn’t work.
The teachings of the Catholic Church on abortion are
immutable doctrine. The Methodists have varied their position.
Fr. Greeley, if he doesn’t teach and believe these doctrines,
is a heretic and excommunicated ipso facto. There is
nothing the UMW can do to be excommunicated from the UMC
because there is no such thing in the UMC.
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Jeff:

That’s not true. A lay person can have church charges filed against them for several offenses. If convicted, their membership is terminated in both the local church and the United Methodist Church; in effect, a layperson CAN be excommunicated.

O+
 
Zooey and Luke,

Regarding excommunication. It is unique to the Catholic
Church regarding heresy, which is defined as follows:

**Heresy **- the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.

If someone is a heretic, he excommunicates *himself *ipso
facto. This means the very act of heresy separates him from
the body of Christ. It does not require the action of a priest
or a vote of the parishoners; nor does it matter if the heretic
**is **a priest. The person has decided by his actions to
separate himself from the body of Christ. Period.

You see, excommunication is not the “offloading” of heretics
**by **the Church – it is the willful separation of the individual
**from **the Church.

In order to have heresy, there has to be a necessary requisite
to accept all doctrine. Catholics are not free to choose the
doctines they follow and the doctrines they will not.
For a Catholic, it’s all or nothing whether he likes it or not.

As far as I know, the Methodist faith does indeed allow
its members to make their own decisions regarding what
they accept and what they will not. Therefore, there can
be no heresy (and hence no excommunication) because
this all or nothing requirement doesn’t exist for Methodists.

Also, don’t confuse my admonishment of past Methodist
leadership with judgment of present Methodist faithful.
I judge no one. What is necessary, however, is public
contrition on the part of the past Methodist leadership
for these grievous errors. If someone lends public scandal to
the natural law (i.e. publicly lends support in word and
deed to those who advocate murder of the innocent),
it is right to require public contrition when someone
repents for the errors of their ways and changes.

Here’s a good example. Take Senator Catholic who runs
for president. Vote after vote in the senate, Senator Catholic
supports funding for abortion, abortion on demaind, partial
birth abortion. Even if senator Catholic has a change of
heart, repents, and confesses; he still must offer a public
contrition because of the public scandal he has
brought against the natural law and Catholic doctrine.

Thank you for your intercessionary prayer. I will continue
to pray for you too and other Methodists close to my heart.

Wtih you both in Christ,

Jeff
 
👋 Hi, it’s me again…I had a message for “Peace bwu”. You sent me a very nice PM, but when I tried to reply, your message box was full. I will try to answer later…Anyhow, thanks for the hello!
 
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JeffreyGerard:
In order to have heresy, there has to be a necessary requisite
to accept all doctrine. Catholics are not free to choose the
doctines they follow and the doctrines they will not.
For a Catholic, it’s all or nothing whether he likes it or not.

As far as I know, the Methodist faith does indeed allow
its members to make their own decisions regarding what
they accept and what they will not. Therefore, there can
be no heresy (and hence no excommunication) because
this all or nothing requirement doesn’t exist for Methodists.
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Actually… it does. Methodists take a loyalty oath when they take church vows - and not just loyalty of presence or financial support - that vow is taken in the context of doctrine, belief, and the Apostes’ Creed in interrogative form. Clergy take a loyalty and defense of doctrine oath. One could argue whether it’s taken seriously or with a wink of the eye… just as I suspect many American Catholics do where birth control is concerned.

But I agree with one statement you said: those who separate themselves from the Body of Christ do so to themselves and by themselves.

Pax vobiscum,

O+
 
It is true that the Methodist church does not have *automatic *excomunication.(I’m not sure that they would be a good idea, frankly, though when something particularly egregious occurs, I confess to a certain degree of :mad: wishing…).
On the other hand, it is possible (though admittedly unlikely) that one can be “excomunicated” from the church at large. What is more common, I think, is that a person might be quietly dropped from the rolls of a local church, or simply asked to leave until they expressed repentance for causing scandal. I stress that this is an extreme step.

The question was asked some time back about Holy Communion. We believe that Christ is in some sense present in the elements; I think that the precise understanding of what that means, may vary from person to person. (I do realize how this must sound to Catholics!). Some of us–including myself–take what might be considered a rather “high church” view, that He is really present behind the bread & wine.(I should say that it is usually juice, not wine, which drives me nuts, but then nobody asked me!). In any case, we do not have “closed communion”; the table is open to all who respond to the “Bidding Prayer”, straight from Mr Wesley’s beloved Book of Common Prayer…
 
Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy.
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In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures.
Wow, it sounds like John Kerry might be a Methodist!!
 
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JeffreyGerard:
Zooey and Luke,

Regarding excommunication. It is unique to the Catholic
Church regarding heresy,
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You are absolutely wrong. Many Protestant churches excommunicate for heresy, and those that do (I’m thinking of conservative Calvinists especially) are generally a lot stricter than Catholics in how they do it.

Edwin
 
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Peace-bwu:
Wow, it sounds like John Kerry might be a Methodist!!
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Please don’t insult our Methodist brethren this way.

John Kerry, according to Catholic teaching, is a heretic and
guilty of assisting in the murder of thousand upon thousands
of innocent babies, and lending public scandal to same.
No Methodist’s actions I know of (including our president)
are as heinous as JK’s.

John Kerry is a dangerous man. Once you can time and
again publically support the murder the innocent, then nothing
is out of bounds. He acts as if the fifth commandment has been
effaced from his conscious and heart.

To the man who is given more, more will be expected.
JK’s actions pole vault clear over horrible to purely evil.
May God have mercy on his soul.

Jeff
 
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Contarini:
You are absolutely wrong. Many Protestant churches excommunicate for heresy, and those that do (I’m thinking of conservative Calvinists especially) are generally a lot stricter than Catholics in how they do it.

Edwin
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Fine. But I offered my comments in the context of a Methodist
and Catholic comparison, which is wholly appropriate
given the thread topic.

Sorry for the confusion and any offense it may have generated.

Jeff
 
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Zooey:
Some of us–including myself–take what might be considered a rather “high church” view, that He is really present behind the bread & wine.(I should say that it is usually juice, not wine, which drives me nuts, but then nobody asked me!). In any case, we do not have “closed communion”; the table is open to all who respond to the “Bidding Prayer”, straight from Mr Wesley’s beloved Book of Common Prayer…
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There is nothing wrong with the Methodist Church giving Communion to whomever wants it. You do not have the True Presence in the Eucharist, so a person under mortal sin would not be held accountable for the body and blood of Christ, it is simply Christians eating bread and grape juice to symbolize the last supper, it is a symbol.

For Catholics, the The Eucharist becomes the actual body, blood soul and divinity of Christ, under the humble appearance of bread and wine. The bread and wine no longer exist, they don’t co-exist, The bread and wine, may appear to be bread and wine but they actually become the body and blood of Christ. They become the True Presence of Jesus. This is why St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians, after reminding us about Jesus instituting the sacrament of the Eucharist in 1Cor 23-26, Saint Paul says:

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink withoutdiscerning the body, eat and drink judgement against themselves. (1 Cor. 23-26)

Because of this, the Eucharist is taken very seriously. Catholics have been martyred by protecting the Eucharist from being defiled.

When a Catholic finds him or herself under mortal sin, he or she must go the the sacrament of reconciliation before receiving Communion. We must be in a state of Grace. This is not intended to make people feel rejected but to keep them from eating and drinking judgement upon themselves. Unfortunately my generation (I just turned 30) went through very weak Catechism and may not know all they need to know about this doctrine.
 
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JeffreyGerard:
Please don’t insult our Methodist brethren this way.

John Kerry, according to Catholic teaching, is a heretic and
guilty of assisting in the murder of thousand upon thousands
of innocent babies, and lending public scandal to same.
No Methodist’s actions I know of (including our president)
are as heinous as JK’s.

John Kerry is a dangerous man. Once you can time and
again publically support the murder the innocent, then nothing
is out of bounds. He acts as if the fifth commandment has been
effaced from his conscious and heart.

To the man who is given more, more will be expected.
JK’s actions pole vault clear over horrible to purely evil.
May God have mercy on his soul.

Jeff
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Although joking a bit, I was serious. It sounds like his beliefs on abortion are more aligned to the previously given Methodist view of abortion, which I quoted in my comment, rather than the Catholic view. It sounds like he is more Methodist in his view of abortion than Catholic. He is a heretic, I have no qualms with calling him that. John Kerry was given Communion in my hometown parish, my family changed parishes. My comment was not intended to insult Methodists, if the given statement about abortion was accurate, why would they be insulted if John Kerry agrees with them? If a person doesn’t like what their church teaches about abortion, that is easily remedied by finding a church that teaches what they believe. Just stating a fact, John Kerry’s views on abortion seem more Methodist than Catholic. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=18586
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=20230
 
I should have pointed out that the Bidding Prayer, is a solid reminder that those who recieve should do so only after repenting of sin…
I do agree that the difference in understanding about Holy Communion is far from a small one!! Nevertheless, I can assure you :yup: that we do take very seriously the need to be at peace with God & our fellows before recieving Holy Communion.
God bless.
 
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