Methodists

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FireFromHeaven

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What are good arguements for use against Methodists? Does anyone know any good books or websites to research this on? Where exactly do they veer from catholic doctrine?
 
I am a former Methodist but I am not sure what you are looking for in saying that you want arguments against the Methodist Church. I can a least try to give you a little understanding. The Methodist church is basically founded by John Wesley who was an Anglican priest and was known for his passion. His brother Charles Wesley was known for his song writing and penned a number of famous hymns. John Wesley didn’t start out to begin a new denomination and in fact at least the United Methodist Church I grew up in still had its Anglican liturgy for the most part intact. The church I grew up in was United which is the liberal branch and the biggest. The very conservative Free and Weslyan are probably more true to John Wesley than United. I also want to say that there are a lot of great Methodists out there and are very socially conscious. The down side is that at least in the United, it was pretty much a free for all and some what anything goes. I didn’t grow up with any thought that abortion is wrong, women ministers is ok, the Bible is not literal or inerrant etc. They certainly say nothing about divorce. I did see growing up conflict between more conservative or evangelical and the liberal. The one thing that eventually attracted me to the Catholic church was authority because there isn’t any at all in United Methodist church. I was hungry for authority and the definitive instead of a free for all. One good book which is more a testimony of conversion by a former United Methodist is “confessions of a Mega church pastor”. you can get in on your Kindle. I think that might help you. Again, if you are dealing and talking to those is that denomination always treat them with respect, they are often very social conscious caring people and very tolerant.
When i was confirmed growing up, our class went to visit the Catholic Church down the street in order to teach understanding and tolerance. This shows you how they see others and treat them. I now feel fortunate that in growing up in that church, I wasn’t taught a lot of the anti-Catholic things that many other Protestant Churched teach about the Catholic church. I hope this give you a better persective on the Methodist church.
 
The Anglican Church (the Church of England) broke off from the unity of the Catholic Church with King Henry-8, who was annoyed that the Pope would not grant him a annulment from his wife (Catherine of Aragon) to marry his sweetheart (Anne Boleyn).

Henry-8 had been a faithful Catholic, and was named “Defender of the Faith” by the Pope for a treatise ascribed to him (most historians say it was actually authored by St. Thomas Moore, whom Henry had beheaded over the marriage issue).

The Anglican Church became increasingly under the influence of Calvinism. This influence eventually resulted in the Holy See rejecting the validity of Anglican Orders because of a (Calvin-influenced) defect in form (and probably intent).

Sometime later, some Anglicans attempted to return to their more-Catholic roots, and formed the “Oxford Movement.” These became known as “High-Church Anglicans.” This narrative parts company with these Anglicans (and Episcopalians) here.

John Wesley, the inventor of the Methodist Church, was an Anglican priest who was heavily influenced by the Calvinist movement (ie, he was a “Low-Church Anglican”). He lived and died as an Anglican priest, and he never intended to establish a new denomination.

Wesley made his splash in the world with a teaching that is now known as the “Holiness Movement.” This is a teaching that we (while on earth) can achieve holiness (ie. spiritual perfection - the complete aversion to sin). This teaching is actually Catholic doctrine, and is enshrined in the Rule of many Catholic Religious Orders. The Church regards many Saints to have achieved this state, including St. Ignatius of Loyla (the founder of the Jesuit Order, to which our Holy Father Francis belongs).

There are many “Holiness” churches that follow this early teaching, but Wesley personally abandoned it in favor or a more Calvinist/Anglican theology.

The problem with apologetics to Methodists is the same as apologetics to Anglicans. There simply is no such thing as Methodist (or Anglican) doctrine. Their beliefs run a wide gamut. To minister to these folks, you need to know what “type” of Methodist (or Anglican) they are.
 
I notice that you have recently asked a similar question about Methodists, Adventists, Calvanism, Baptists, Lutherans, Zarathusterism, Zoroastrianism, Rastafarianism, Confucianism, and Islam.

You seem very inquisitive, and appear to have a substantial amount of free time to devote to research of topics that would fill the Library of Alexandria. Please forgive me for also noting that your questions are also indicative that you are a troll, and should be ignored.
 
FireFromHeaven said:
What are good arguements for use against Methodists? Does anyone know any good books or websites to research this on? Where exactly do they veer from catholic doctrine?
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I come from a Methodist background and have huge respect for John Wesley. He was a man who wanted to bring the Gospel to people who felt alienated from the Church of England. He, along with George Whitefield, went to preach the Gospel in places where the established Church was reluctant to preach - bringing preaching out of the church buildings and into the community. His message was also one of social change - recognizing the immense damage alcohol was doing to working class families. Traditional Methodism embraces abstinence from alcohol out of the recognition of the damage that it has done to societies.

He had a very pragmatic attitude to faith, recognizing that faith is informed by scripture, tradition, reason and experience (the so called “Wesleyan Quadrilateral”). He talks of having his heart “strangely warmed” one evening at a church service, where he fully grasped that his salvation depended on trusting in Christ, and Christ alone. This marked the beginning of a new zeal in his life. He had a very strong commitment to the Gospel being for, and available to, everyone.

Wesley’s was a very real earthy faith, lived day in day out, and one can (mistakenly, I believe) over-analyse the theology that went along with his faith. To understand Wesley and the roots of Methodism it is best to look at his life and what he did, and to remember his core teachings that the Gospel was for all and that it should be accompanied by social change. I think there is much all churches (including today’s Methodist Church, which does not always resemble the faith of John Wesley) can learn from John Wesley.
 
DavidFilmer said:
I notice that you have recently asked a similar question about Methodists, Adventists, Calvanism, Baptists, Lutherans, Zarathusterism, Zoroastrianism, Rastafarianism, Confucianism, and Islam.

You seem very inquisitive, and appear to have a substantial amount of free time to devote to research of topics that would fill the Library of Alexandria. Please forgive me for also noting that your questions are also indicative that you are a troll, and should be ignored.
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Now I don’t know if he’s a troll. He might spend all his free time researching these topics, which interest him.

I wonder if there’s a book of all these heresies? Or maybe the Catechism would be best, so when doctrine strays, it will be easier to see where.
 
robwar said:
I am a former Methodist but I am not sure what you are looking for in saying that you want arguments against the Methodist Church. I can a least try to give you a little understanding. The Methodist church is basically founded by John Wesley who was an Anglican priest and was known for his passion. His brother Charles Wesley was known for his song writing and penned a number of famous hymns. John Wesley didn’t start out to begin a new denomination and in fact at least the United Methodist Church I grew up in still had its Anglican liturgy for the most part intact. The church I grew up in was United which is the liberal branch and the biggest. The very conservative Free and Weslyan are probably more true to John Wesley than United. I also want to say that there are a lot of great Methodists out there and are very socially conscious. The down side is that at least in the United, it was pretty much a free for all and some what anything goes. I didn’t grow up with any thought that abortion is wrong, women ministers is ok, the Bible is not literal or inerrant etc. They certainly say nothing about divorce. I did see growing up conflict between more conservative or evangelical and the liberal. The one thing that eventually attracted me to the Catholic church was authority because there isn’t any at all in United Methodist church. I was hungry for authority and the definitive instead of a free for all. One good book which is more a testimony of conversion by a former United Methodist is “confessions of a Mega church pastor”. you can get in on your Kindle. I think that might help you. Again, if you are dealing and talking to those is that denomination always treat them with respect, they are often very social conscious caring people and very tolerant.
When i was confirmed growing up, our class went to visit the Catholic Church down the street in order to teach understanding and tolerance. This shows you how they see others and treat them. I now feel fortunate that in growing up in that church, I wasn’t taught a lot of the anti-Catholic things that many other Protestant Churched teach about the Catholic church. I hope this give you a better persective on the Methodist church.
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Thank you for this good advice.
 
Michael_Allen said:
I come from a Methodist background and have huge respect for John Wesley. He was a man who wanted to bring the Gospel to people who felt alienated from the Church of England. He, along with George Whitefield, went to preach the Gospel in places where the established Church was reluctant to preach - bringing preaching out of the church buildings and into the community. His message was also one of social change - recognizing the immense damage alcohol was doing to working class families. Traditional Methodism embraces abstinence from alcohol out of the recognition of the damage that it has done to societies.

He had a very pragmatic attitude to faith, recognizing that faith is informed by scripture, tradition, reason and experience (the so called “Wesleyan Quadrilateral”). He talks of having his heart “strangely warmed” one evening at a church service, where he fully grasped that his salvation depended on trusting in Christ, and Christ alone. This marked the beginning of a new zeal in his life. He had a very strong commitment to the Gospel being for, and available to, everyone.

Wesley’s was a very real earthy faith, lived day in day out, and one can (mistakenly, I believe) over-analyse the theology that went along with his faith. To understand Wesley and the roots of Methodism it is best to look at his life and what he did, and to remember his core teachings that the Gospel was for all and that it should be accompanied by social change. I think there is much all churches (including today’s Methodist Church, which does not always resemble the faith of John Wesley) can learn from John Wesley.
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That sounds like an amazing man. Do you know any good books on his life?
 
FireFromHeaven said:
That sounds like an amazing man. Do you know any good books on his life?
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John Wesley’s mother was equally amazing too. I think he and Charles almost credit her for their faith. With her Anglican priest husband, they had 15 children altogether. It was said that when she wanted some quite time to pray and with a household of children, she would just pull the apron over her head and the children knew enough to leave her alone. I’ve read that when John was I think 5, there was a major house fire and I think he was one of last to be pulled out which John’s mother took as a sign of divine intervention and purpose for his life.
 
DavidFilmer said:
I notice that you have recently asked a similar question about Methodists, Adventists, Calvanism, Baptists, Lutherans, Zarathusterism, Zoroastrianism, Rastafarianism, Confucianism, and Islam.

You seem very inquisitive, and appear to have a substantial amount of free time to devote to research of topics that would fill the Library of Alexandria. Please forgive me for also noting that your questions are also indicative that you are a troll, and should be ignored.
Click to expand...
nothing wrong in asking questions to gain better understanding and the differences between us and other faiths.
 
robwar said:
I am a former Methodist but I am not sure what you are looking for in saying that you want arguments against the Methodist Church. I can a least try to give you a little understanding. The Methodist church is basically founded by John Wesley who was an Anglican priest and was known for his passion. His brother Charles Wesley was known for his song writing and penned a number of famous hymns. John Wesley didn’t start out to begin a new denomination and in fact at least the United Methodist Church I grew up in still had its Anglican liturgy for the most part intact. The church I grew up in was United which is the liberal branch and the biggest. The very conservative Free and Weslyan are probably more true to John Wesley than United. I also want to say that there are a lot of great Methodists out there and are very socially conscious. The down side is that at least in the United, it was pretty much a free for all and some what anything goes. I didn’t grow up with any thought that abortion is wrong, women ministers is ok, the Bible is not literal or inerrant etc. They certainly say nothing about divorce. I did see growing up conflict between more conservative or evangelical and the liberal. The one thing that eventually attracted me to the Catholic church was authority because there isn’t any at all in United Methodist church. I was hungry for authority and the definitive instead of a free for all. One good book which is more a testimony of conversion by a former United Methodist is “confessions of a Mega church pastor”. you can get in on your Kindle. I think that might help you. Again, if you are dealing and talking to those is that denomination always treat them with respect, they are often very social conscious caring people and very tolerant.
When i was confirmed growing up, our class went to visit the Catholic Church down the street in order to teach understanding and tolerance. This shows you how they see others and treat them. I now feel fortunate that in growing up in that church, I wasn’t taught a lot of the anti-Catholic things that many other Protestant Churched teach about the Catholic church. I hope this give you a better persective on the Methodist church.
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This aligns with my experience. The Methodists I’ve known, have been and are some of the most genuinely nice and generally good, people I’ve known. Although theologically/doctrinally liberal, they are very much gospel oriented. The gist of Christ (charity), if not the correct framework. They’re hard not to like.

…but, as you alluded to, the lack of authority is problematic. You get a laid back, easy going, non-judgmental (but still passionate) congregation–but the Church doesn’t offer a whole lot by way of guidance. I’m ok, you’re ok, it’s all ok… much more relativsit, that actual Christian doctrine.

Everything seems negotiable, and at that point…why bother with Church at all? ‘Church’ itself, becomes negotiable.

(…perhaps my comments/experience are limited to the UMC).

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
FireFromHeaven said:
Thank you for this good advice.
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OK, I think i may be partially responsible for these ‘how do you argue with a X [pro. denom.] threads. When I suggested you’ve gotta’ know who you’re dealing with–and proceeded to list different pro. denoms/schools of thought–I didn’t figure you’d take this approach.

My other admonition, was to ‘Listen’. Hence what I meant with the two in conjunction, is that first, you shold at least get a broad framework of what each pro. denom. believes–mostly, about themselves. You can look it up I suppose, by denomination–but that’s perhaps a bit too academic an approach, imo–because most people don’t necessarily subscribe to the definitions attributed to them. E.g.–in another thread, it came out that the Lutheran confession holds that the papacy is the anit-christ; but at least one of the lutheran posters in the thread–a pastor no less–didn’t appear to even be aware of that, let alone hold to it.

…hence my second point. LISTEN. Hear the other guy out, in order to understand. Or, as Stephen Covey put it in “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People”:

Seek FIRST to understand, THEN to be understood.

That was my point.

Digging for information with the express purpose of blowing up a guy’s belief’s, and engageing them with that as your agenda or intent, is usually pretty transparent, and not very effective.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
Goya said:
OK, I think i may be partially responsible for these ‘how do you argue with a X [pro. denom.] threads. When I suggested you’ve gotta’ know who you’re dealing with–and proceeded to list different pro. denoms/schools of thought–I didn’t figure you’d take this approach.

My other admonition, was to ‘Listen’. Hence what I meant with the two in conjunction, is that first, you shold at least get a broad framework of what each pro. denom. believes–mostly, about themselves. You can look it up I suppose, by denomination–but that’s perhaps a bit too academic an approach, imo–because most people don’t necessarily subscribe to the definitions attributed to them. E.g.–in another thread, it came out that the Lutheran confession holds that the papacy is the anit-christ; but at least one of the lutheran posters in the thread–a pastor no less–didn’t appear to even be aware of that, let alone hold to it.

…hence my second point. LISTEN. Hear the other guy out, in order to understand. Or, as Stephen Covey put it in “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People”:

That was my point.

Digging for information with the express purpose of blowing up a guy’s belief’s, and engageing them with that as your agenda or intent, is usually pretty transparent, and not very effective.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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You are correct Goya. Though you only caused the Protestant ones. The non Christian ones were my attempt to understand what Catholics think of those religions. Thank you again. Seek FIRST to understand, THEN to be understood. that is excellent advice. Thank you again and God bless.

I don’t know the Latin but

“And also with your spirit”
 
Goya said:
This aligns with my experience. The Methodists I’ve known, have been and are some of the most genuinely nice and generally good, people I’ve known. Although theologically/doctrinally liberal, they are very much gospel oriented. The gist of Christ (charity), if not the correct framework. They’re hard not to like.

…but, as you alluded to, the lack of authority is problematic. You get a laid back, easy going, non-judgmental (but still passionate) congregation–but the Church doesn’t offer a whole lot by way of guidance. I’m ok, you’re ok, it’s all ok… much more relativsit, that actual Christian doctrine.
Everything seems negotiable, and at that point…why bother with Church at all? ‘Church’ itself, becomes negotiable.
(…perhaps my comments/experience are limited to the UMC).
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
Click to expand...
Your observations are accurate, good gentle.
To your comments I add this, as a past Methodist:
“By the fruit shall the tree be known.”
I experienced the United Methodist Church’s bitter fruit early in life and it soured my opinion of the whole outfit.
You see, back about 19 and 66 or in that general area, the high command of the Methodist Evangelist (or Methodist Episcopal, depending on which expert you listen to) and the high command of the Evangelical United Bretheren looked at one another and said “Our doctrine is for all intents and purposes, identical. Let us unite.”
At high command levels they did so, and ordered all subordinate churches to merge.
One thing you do NOT do in Appalachia is tell people what to do.
Hard headed independent Scots Irish folk who’ve had to fight and scratch to make a living, don’t take kindly to being TOLD what to do.
Our church held a referendum; folk who’d not been to church in a half century turned out to vote, I saw good and lifelong friends at one another’s throats and knifing each other in the back over what name to choose for the newly merged church.
The usher would not accept my ballot – “You’re too young to vote” – despite my having been made a full member of the church one month before.
The last straw was when I read their official magazine as a high school freshman and found their political views were radically left of my own; their politics overshadowed their doctrine.
“Feed My Sheep” was replaced with “Believe My Politics.”
On that moment I chose to cleave myself from the United Methodist Church.
My shadow has not darkened their doorstep to this day.
 
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