Methodists

[clem456]

Yes, I understand. However, those who are not Trinitarian (JWs, LDS) DO self-identity as Christian. Various faith communities may disagree and not accept baptisms, but bottom line, they get to decide for themselves.

Well, sort of.
A person can self-identify however they want. That’s simply freedom of expression. Freedom of expression should be respected. Part of that respect is to discuss it, and even to point out the inconsistencies.

Whether or not a person is actually what they self-identify as can be discussed.

For instance, I am a pro-basketball player. Truly. I have the arms, the legs, the ball and the game.

Assertion does make reality.

Somewhere at the kernel of all the various expressions of belief, and the human words used to express it, there is a real content to faith.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Well, sort of.
A person can self-identify however they want. That’s simply freedom of expression. Freedom of expression should be respected. Part of that respect is to discuss it, and even to point out the inconsistencies.

Whether or not a person is actually what they self-identify as can be discussed.

For instance, I am a pro-basketball player. Truly. I have the arms, the legs, the ball and the game.

Assertion does make reality.

Somewhere at the kernel of all the various expressions of belief, and the human words used to express it, there is a real content to faith.

You can point out inconsistencies, but it makes no difference if the faith tradition says, ‘No, we worship Jesus, We are Christian.’

It doesn’t matter what others believe, except to the others.

 

[clem456]

You can point out inconsistencies, but it makes no difference if the faith tradition says, ‘No, we worship Jesus, We are Christian.’

It doesn’t matter what others believe, except to the others.

I get that people use words in malleable ways to mean whatever they assert they mean. (that’s kind of a disease that’s going around these days) but the word Christian should point the Christian to a real content.

Faith is a gift initiated by a real person, God. God has real attributes and a real nature which are not determined by assertion.

Or maybe god is the guy in the mirror…

In any case, I am a pro basketball player.

 

[clem456]

Well, sort of.
A person can self-identify however they want. That’s simply freedom of expression. Freedom of expression should be respected. Part of that respect is to discuss it, and even to point out the inconsistencies.

Whether or not a person is actually what they self-identify as can be discussed.

For instance, I am a pro-basketball player. Truly. I have the arms, the legs, the ball and the game.

Assertion does NOT make reality.

Somewhere at the kernel of all the various expressions of belief, and the human words used to express it, there is a real content to faith.

oops.

 

[Erich]

bottom line, they get to decide for themselves.

They get to decide for themselves what they think they are.

it makes no difference if the faith tradition says, ‘No, we worship Jesus, We are Christian.’

Speaking of faith tradition… it’s not enough to just “worship Jesus” to be considered a Christian. What it really means to be a Christian was hammered out in the earliest centuries of the Church, culminating in the creeds that came out of the councils of Nicaea (325) and Constantinople (381).

 

[ComplineSanFran]

They get to decide for themselves what they think they are.

Speaking of faith tradition… it’s not enough to just “worship Jesus” to be considered a Christian. What it really means to be a Christian was hammered out in the earliest centuries of the Church, culminating in the creeds that came out of the councils of Nicaea (325) and Constantinople (381).

‘Followers of the Way’ came even before that. And for those faith communities that prefer to take their theology and doctrine from the earlier Church, I think they have a right to do just that.

It’s all in the interpretation.

 

[Wannano]

‘Followers of the Way’ came even before that. And for those faith communities that prefer to take their theology and doctrine from the earlier Church, I think they have a right to do just that.

It’s all in the interpretation.

 

[Erich]

It’s all in the interpretation.

I see that you self-identify as Anglican. I know that some Anglicans consider themselves Catholic; I don’t know if you are one such, but let’s hypothetically assume, for the sake of discussion, that you are.

If someone new moved in to your neighborhood and asked you where the nearest Catholic Church is, would you direct them to your Anglican parish, or not?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I see that you self-identify as Anglican. I know that some Anglicans consider themselves Catholic; I don’t know if you are one such, but let’s hypothetically assume, for the sake of discussion, that you are.

If someone new moved in to your neighborhood and asked you where the nearest Catholic Church is, would you direct them to your Anglican parish, or not?

I would ask them to tell me what SORT of Catholic Church they wished.

 

[GKC]

I would ask them to tell me what SORT of Catholic Church they wished.

So would I.

 

[andrewstx]

Thank you, Andrew. This is outside of my area of study. Could you please explain the difference for me? I’d really like to learn.

I can try. I went to the Nazarene church when I was a small child. Now I am 60. They did not seem to be very involved with the sacraments. During the years I was there I never saw a baptism, and Holy Communion once. What seemed very more important was ‘getting saved’. They also had a second act of grace called sanctification. They did not have an ‘altar call’ but when they did it lasted at least 1/2 hour. It involved a lot of emotion, tears and Kleenex.

Holiness women are easily recognized. They are the ones with long hair, and long dresses/skirts. Sanctification was to remove original sin and temptation.

Pentecostals are more ‘vivid’ and demonstrative. Holiness people are more quiet. The Nazarenes were originally called ‘The Pentecostal church of the Nazarene’ but quickly dropped the word Pentecostal since they denied speaking in tounges.

 

[andrewstx]

Bye the way there were many Holliness and Pentecostal churches that broke away from the Methodist church. This happened when the Methodists became more ‘respectable’ and middle class. The break aways were more blue collar.

 

[ltwin]

Thank you, Andrew. This is outside of my area of study. Could you please explain the difference for me? I’d really like to learn.

I can try. I went to the Nazarene church when I was a small child. Now I am 60. They did not seem to be very involved with the sacraments. During the years I was there I never saw a baptism, and Holy Communion once. What seemed very more important was ‘getting saved’. They also had a second act of grace called sanctification. They did not have an ‘altar call’ but when they did it lasted at least 1/2 hour. It involved a lot of emotion, tears and Kleenex.

Holiness women are easily recognized. They are the ones with long hair, and long dresses/skirts. Sanctification was to remove original sin and temptation.

Pentecostals are more ‘vivid’ and demonstrative. Holiness people are more quiet. The Nazarenes were originally called ‘The Pentecostal church of the Nazarene’ but quickly dropped the word Pentecostal since they denied speaking in tounges.

Both holiness and Pentecostal movements developed mainly out of a theological concept that John Wesley (founder of Methodism) promoted–Christian perfection. For Wesley, perfection meant a purity of intention and a dedicating of all of one’s life to God. Perfection or “entire sanctification”, according to Wesley, should be the goal of every Christian; perfection essentially equating to “maturity” in the faith.

For Wesley, the attaining of perfection could be both gradual or instantaneous. Later Methodists, sensing a decline in religious commitment within the Methodist Church, felt that the problem was too many Methodists were no longer serious about Christian perfection, so they began to emphasize it more and eventually started to preach about a way to shorten the wait. By “laying all upon the altar” (during a period of intense prayer and consecration) they could achieve entire sanctification instantly. This experience was said to be a “baptism in the Holy Spirit.” These people were forced out of the Methodist Church and started their own churches, such as the Wesleyan Church and the Nazarene Church.

It was people steeped in the holiness movement who first made the connection between speaking in tongues and the baptism in the Holy Spirit (which up until that time had been synonymous with sanctification). Wesleyan-Pentecostals today continue to preach 3 distinct “crisis” experiences–conversion, sanctification, and baptism in the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues).

 

[AbideWithMe]

Both holiness and Pentecostal movements developed mainly out of a theological concept that John Wesley (founder of Methodism) promoted–Christian perfection. For Wesley, perfection meant a purity of intention and a dedicating of all of one’s life to God. Perfection or “entire sanctification”, according to Wesley, should be the goal of every Christian; perfection essentially equating to “maturity” in the faith.

For Wesley, the attaining of perfection could be both gradual or instantaneous. Later Methodists, sensing a decline in religious commitment within the Methodist Church, felt that the problem was too many Methodists were no longer serious about Christian perfection, so they began to emphasize it more and eventually started to preach about a way to shorten the wait. By “laying all upon the altar” (during a period of intense prayer and consecration) they could achieve entire sanctification instantly. This experience was said to be a “baptism in the Holy Spirit.” These people were forced out of the Methodist Church and started their own churches, such as the Wesleyan Church and the Nazarene Church.

It was people steeped in the holiness movement who first made the connection between speaking in tongues and the baptism in the Holy Spirit (which up until that time had been synonymous with sanctification). Wesleyan-Pentecostals today continue to preach 3 distinct “crisis” experiences–conversion, sanctification, and baptism in the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues).

I was hoping you’d be around, Itwin. I’ve read some out of print books about Jacob Albright, the German speaking Methodist who, in the late 1700’s, first organized the church I grew up in. Curiously, to me, I’ve read his own account of what was then a unusual experience: Albright, while in prayer, felt an overwhelming–but good–weight press him to the floor. I think I’ve seen later charismatic Christians refer to something similar as “the weight of glory”.

Albright’s colleagues also spoke of other charismatic occurences. This group came to call themselves the Evangelical Association around 1803, part of which later become one of the three main bodies merging to form the UMC; another part did not got through the mergers and is now the church I grew up in. What’s curious to me is that the early charismaticism of the movement was lost both in my church and the UMC. I haven’t really been able to trace the point at which it was lost.

 

[ltwin]

I was hoping you’d be around, Itwin. I’ve read some out of print books about Jacob Albright, the German speaking Methodist who, in the late 1700’s, first organized the church I grew up in. Curiously, to me, I’ve read his own account of what was then a unusual experience: Albright, while in prayer, felt an overwhelming–but good–weight press him to the floor. I think I’ve seen later charismatic Christians refer to something similar as “the weight of glory”.

I’ve experienced something like this several times in my life. I’ve heard it described as the weight of God’s glory as well the power of God.

John Wesley himself described something like this in a meeting with his brother, George Whitefield, and 60 other people. It was a “love-feast” at Fetter-Lane, an early meeting place for Moravians in London. He writes, “as we were continuing instant in prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, inasmuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground.” Taken from The Works of John Wesley, vol. 1, p. 170.

Albright’s colleagues also spoke of other charismatic occurences. This group came to call themselves the Evangelical Association around 1803, part of which later become one of the three main bodies merging to form the UMC; another part did not got through the mergers and is now the church I grew up in. What’s curious to me is that the early charismaticism of the movement was lost both in my church and the UMC. I haven’t really been able to trace the point at which it was lost.

There is a great book that might interest you, Religion and Violence in Early American Methodism: Taking the Kingdom by Force by Jeffrey Williams. It’s available on Amazon Kindle. I have not read the whole book, but the first few chapters deal with how Methodists saw the body as a site of spiritual conflict between opposing forces of good and evil–and how later Methodist views evolve.

Page 38 seems to suggest that “bodily experiences” became rare early on. It says that Wesley himself noted that they had declined after a few years.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I’ve experienced something like this several times in my life. I’ve heard it described as the weight of God’s glory as well the power of God.

John Wesley himself described something like this in a meeting with his brother, George Whitefield, and 60 other people. It was a “love-feast” at Fetter-Lane, an early meeting place for Moravians in London. He writes, “as we were continuing instant in prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, inasmuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground.” Taken from The Works of John Wesley, vol. 1, p. 170.

There is a great book that might interest you, Religion and Violence in Early American Methodism: Taking the Kingdom by Force by Jeffrey Williams. It’s available on Amazon Kindle. I have not read the whole book, but the first few chapters deal with how Methodists saw the body as a site of spiritual conflict between opposing forces of good and evil–and how later Methodist views evolve.

Page 38 seems to suggest that “bodily experiences” became rare early on. It says that Wesley himself noted that they had declined after a few years.

Thanks very much, Itwin—interesting!

I live near a seminary of the Evangelical Methodist denomination of which I’m a member; I’m sure I can find that book in their library.

 

[ltwin]

Thanks very much, Itwin—interesting!

I live near a seminary of the Evangelical Methodist denomination of which I’m a member; I’m sure I can find that book in their library.

The whole topic of “religious enthusiasm” as it used to be called is very interesting. I think the Methodist experience actually fits an often repeated pattern in American religions in which a religious movement starts in the midst of revival and over time becomes more established and respected and in turn gives birth to newer revival movements that themselves eventually “mature” and sadly often stagnate (as is the case with many of the mainline churches in my opinion).

Even Pentecostals have seen the oldest organizations in the movement become less Pentecostal and more generically evangelical. In my own life, I can say that locally the full gospel churches 10 years ago were more enthusiastic and assertive in their ministry and today there has been sort of a change in emphasis (more about personal health and wealth and institution building).

It’s very interesting.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Are people following the General Conference that began today in Portland, OR? It is the national governing assembly and happens once every four years.

National Catholic Reporter did a piece on the 6 things to watch for during this session.

ncronline.org/news/spirituality/6-things-watch-methodist-general-conference

They are:

1. LGBT issues
2. Abortion
3. Religious Freedom
4. Welcoming immigrants and refugees
5. Divestment from companies supporting Israeli-Palestinian conflict
6. Gun Violence

Certainly the first one has already come before the public as 100+ clergy and seminarians have come out as gay or lesbian in an open letter to the denomination.

 

[ltwin]

Are people following the General Conference that began today in Portland, OR? It is the national governing assembly and happens once every four years.

Point of clarification, the United Methodist Church, while based in the US, is an international denomination. Of its 12 million members, 4 million live outside in the US with the fastest growth occurring in Africa.

 

[Little_Sheep]

I would ask them to tell me what SORT of Catholic Church they wished.

Indeed; they certainly run the gamut.

That said, I am an Episcopalian and consider Episcopalians to be both Catholic and Protestant, but if someone new to town asked me where the closest Catholic Church was, I wouldn’t assume they were looking for an Episcopal Church.

I always enjoy the points you make about the difference b/w mainline Protestant churches teaching and leading its adherents and the way of the RCC in that regard. I do think this fundamental difference can naturally lead to a disconnect when chatting about things theological.