Methodological Naturalism Necessary in Empiriological Sciences?

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“Philosophy is not science nor should the natural sciences directly treat philosophical questions.” Is this true?
As long as they are purely philosophical questions that make no empirical predictions.
Not necessarily. One can have hypotheses involving supernatural entities. The trouble lies with how they can be tested if the actions of such entities are not predictable or repeatable. That is why saying “God did it”, no matter how true it may be philosophically, cannot be a scientific hypothesis - how can we predict what God is going to do next, and God is omnipotent, so the hypothesis space is unlimited.
There are proposed alternatives that seek to unify, not divide, philosophy and the empiriological sciences—specifically with the truest, most commonsense philosophy: Scholastic-Thomism.
All I can say is: good luck. From one of the articles you linked to:
The failure to present a purely physical theory, and work out the relationship of this theory to all the physical conclusions of modern science, to supply a dynamic and intrinsic unity of physical doctrine, capable of assimilating in a formal way all the truly physical findings of science, has been the crowning failure of Thomism in the field of physical science
 
Why would we want to not operate on methodological naturalism? We are studying the natural world – it is the best system.
 
One can have hypotheses involving supernatural entities. The trouble lies with how they can be tested if the actions of such entities are not predictable or repeatable. That is why saying “God did it”, no matter how true it may be philosophically, cannot be a scientific hypothesis - how can we predict what God is going to do next, and God is omnipotent, so the hypothesis space is unlimited.
There is also the difficulty of deciding between “God did it”, “Allah did it”, “Krishna did it” etc.

Science can only investigate the material effects of the supernatural, for example there have been studies done in the effects of prayer on hospital patients. Directly investigating the supernatural is currently not possible within science.

rossum
 
As long as they are purely philosophical questions that make no empirical predictions.
I realize that we understand the supernatural order via the natural order, but if the supernatural order has any effect on the natural order, why should we not incorporate our knowledge of it in scientific theories of the natural order?
 
Why would we want to not operate on methodological naturalism? We are studying the natural world – it is the best system.
Methodological naturalism is the studying of the natural world with the exclusion of considering things non-physical having any effect on it.
 
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Science can only investigate the material effects of the supernatural, for example there have been studies done in the effects of prayer on hospital patients. Directly investigating the supernatural is currently not possible within science.

rossum
Thank you for stating the obvious. It is sad that the obvious “Science can only investigate the material effects of the supernatural” is rarely, if ever, referred to on threads. Instead there is this unfounded fear that even the word supernatural can somehow alter material evidence under a microscope. Yes, I admit I am overstating. My apology. It is just that your common sense is like fresh air. Perhaps, all of us who are interested in science, need to open our windows. 😉
 
I realize that we understand the supernatural order via the natural order, but if the supernatural order has any effect on the natural order, why should we not incorporate our knowledge of it in scientific theories of the natural order?
There’s no intrinsic reason why not. You just have to be able to make predictions on what will be observed, otherwise the scientific method can’t be used.
 
There’s no intrinsic reason why not. You just have to be able to make predictions on what will be observed, otherwise the scientific method can’t be used.
When material effects are observed but the source is not found in a material cause, one can use the tools of reason, self reflection, logical evaluation, and analytical thought to come to the conclusion of a spiritual source.
 
I realize that we understand the supernatural order via the natural order, but if the supernatural order has any effect on the natural order, why should we not incorporate our knowledge of it in scientific theories of the natural order?
This is a self-defeating project, for if the “supernatural” has a predictable effect on the natural world in such a way that it can be drawn into scientific hypotheses, explanations of phenomena and theories, then the “supernatural” is not supernatural, but natural. If, on the other hand, the supernatural affects the natural world by rare, capricious and unpredictable changes to the natural order, then science is powerless to study it.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
This is a self-defeating project, for if the “supernatural” has a predictable effect on the natural world in such a way that it can be drawn into scientific hypotheses, explanations of phenomena and theories, then the “supernatural” is not supernatural, but natural. If, on the other hand, the supernatural affects the natural world by rare, capricious and unpredictable changes to the natural order, then science is powerless to study it.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
I would eliminate capricious; but let us say that in the rare and unpredictable times that an actual supernatural, i.e., a transcendent spiritual being does intervene in nature, it would be for a specific cause and have specific effects on specific matter. (This would be way different than a god of the gaps.)

Consequently, the affected matter can be studied by scientists in accord with natural methods. Scientists often term such a cause/effect situation as extraordinary phenonomen. Notice that scientists are not attempting to study the supernatural but only the results which are in the sensory realm. Any individual, regardless of their security badge, can and do offer their opinions.
 
I would eliminate capricious; but let us say that in the rare and unpredictable times that an actual supernatural, i.e., a transcendent spiritual being does intervene in nature, it would be for a specific cause and have specific effects on specific matter. (This would be way different than a god of the gaps.)

Consequently, the affected matter can be studied by scientists in accord with natural methods. Scientists often term such a cause/effect situation as extraordinary phenonomen. Notice that scientists are not attempting to study the supernatural but only the results which are in the sensory realm. Any individual, regardless of their security badge, can and do offer their opinions.
So when you study some matter a) how do you decide that it has been affected by a spiritual agent diddling about with the natural order? b) if supernatural explanations are acceptable in science, how do we avoid falling back on them every time we have difficulty in coming to a natural explanation of a phenomenon and c) if such supernaturally affected matter does exist, just what can we learn by studying it?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Why? Loki/Trickster is one possible god. Capriciousness to be expected form such a god.

rossum
Since capriciousness can be expected from Loki/Trickster, I will gladly use capriciousness in regard to this god.🙂
 
Since capriciousness can be expected from Loki/Trickster, I will gladly use capriciousness in regard to this god.🙂
Well, he’s not that tricky of a god if you know he’s tricky. The really tricky ones are the ones that get people to suppose it can’t lie, perhaps? I think those gods are the ones that merit the most caution in evaluating their claims.

-TS
 
Thank you for stating the obvious. It is sad that the obvious “Science can only investigate the material effects of the supernatural” is rarely, if ever, referred to on threads. Instead there is this unfounded fear that even the word supernatural can somehow alter material evidence under a microscope. Yes, I admit I am overstating. My apology. It is just that your common sense is like fresh air. Perhaps, all of us who are interested in science, need to open our windows. 😉
Are not you contradicting yourself? First you say there are “material effects of the supernatural,” which science investigates; then imply that the supernatural cannot “somehow alter material evidence under a microscope.” Does the supernatural affect physical matter or not?
 
Well, he’s not that tricky of a god if you know he’s tricky. The really tricky ones are the ones that get people to suppose it can’t lie, perhaps? I think those gods are the ones that merit the most caution in evaluating their claims.

-TS
Can’t help :rotfl: It is too close to “trick or treat” time. The really little kids are so cute trying to trick me as to whom they really are.
 
Are not you contradicting yourself? First you say there are “material effects of the supernatural,” which science investigates; then imply that the supernatural cannot “somehow alter material evidence under a microscope.” Does the supernatural affect physical matter or not?
You bring up some very good points for discussion.

Let’s go back to what I said, please. The first thing refers to the scope of science –
Science can only investigate the material effects of the supernatural. In other words, science, at this point in time, does not investigate the supernatural.
What you see as an implication refers to the unfounded fear that even the word supernatural can somehow alter material evidence under a microscope. I used the word can instead of cannot. I also used the literal word supernatural rather than actual action. This sounds like splitting hairs but after reading tons of confusion about this subject I find that splitting hairs is necessary.

Regarding your question "Does the supernatural affect physical matter or not? At this point I am trying to put forth some opinions regarding this question. Right now, I feel that it is the reader who needs to answer that question for herself or himself.

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So when you study some matter a) how do you decide that it has been affected by a spiritual agent diddling about with the natural order? b) if supernatural explanations are acceptable in science, how do we avoid falling back on them every time we have difficulty in coming to a natural explanation of a phenomenon and c) if such supernaturally affected matter does exist, just what can we learn by studying it?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
We’re operating in a historical context in which science has fared extremely well, but it didn’t have to be that way. Just because naturalistic explanations have fared so well up to this point and there is no reason to think that won’t continue in the future doesn’t mean that it is logically necessary that strictly natural explanations always work, if one admits the logical possibility of supernatural entities. And in fact, many atheists try to make the case that there is no (physical) evidence for supernatural entities. This assumes that if there were a supernatural entity messing around in the physical world we could detect evidence of it and infer its existence, otherwise the atheists’ claim is meaningless.

And there are such hypothetical cases, sharp discontinuities from the regularity we normally see in nature which make it impossible (or virtually) so to obtain a parsimonious explanation. So I’ll be hypothetical, and assume a case where a supernatural entity is affecting the natural order and show how your questions will be answered, with of course the caveat we don’t get “proof” but only inference to the best explanation. If the stars followed general relativity except for, say, December 25, and then inexplicably everywhere on earth you looked they spelled out “God is Great” in the sky (in many different languages), and then mysteriously resumed their normal courses on December 26, what would you think? Moreover, the message has been documented in history, as occurring in the extant languages at the time.

We could postulate some strange ad hoc “December 25 exception” to GR which has all stars (or starlight, to be exact) moving where they go. But this is no explanation at all - the explanation is just as complex as what is explained, and has no explanatory power - any motion of the stars could be explained by such a device.

We could postulate a very strange space-time curvature which cause the starlight to bend in just the right manner to see “God is great” every December 25. But would cause that? You’d have to have almost as many entities (or maybe more, who knows, I’m not an expert in GR) to cause the right curvature. Again, no explanation.

We could postulate some new physics. But again, where’s the parsimony? Yes, new physical theories have been made to explain things previously unexplainable (e.g. blackbody radiation, Michelson-Morley, etc.) but these things were repeatable and predictable.

We could give up on any explanation, like we do for random events in quantum mechanics. Yet that’s unsatisfying too, because there are messages in various languages read by the inhabitants of the earth.

Clearly the most parsimonious explanation is that some supernatural entity wishes to communicate with us, has the power to move the stars (or at least starlight), and is using it to do so.

So, the answer to a) and b) is that to avoid an argumentum ad ignorantium (we can’t see how a natural explanation would work, so none must be possible) we must have a positive reason to think so, meaning a lack of a possible parsimonious explanation. Yet this isn’t always a clear-cut issue. Let’s I have a scatter-plot of variable Y vs. X, and they’re unrelated, I get just a bunch of noise around the mean. Yet I can always find some function that fits. But if I’m tailoring the function to the data that’s “cheating”. Yet if the data more or less fit a sine-function we’d recognize a pattern. Hmmm.

The answer to c) is hopefully we can learn something about supernatural entities.
 
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