Metropolitan Kallistos on Orthodox - Catholic Union

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An interesting talk. The first part amounts to almost a direct rebuke towards my personal attitude towards reunion, and would thus probably encourage my leaving this site forever. The second part actually has the most “meat” in it, but I would possibly question His Eminence’s opinion on whether progress has been made.

I think their idea of separating the issues of Primacy and Infallibility and dealing with each independently to be a good one. Each is a HUGE obstacle towards unity, and separating them will allow for a better analysis. His Eminence brings up a core part of the issue: Canon 34 and the declarations of Vatican I seem irreconcilable, and I cannot see how they can be meshed without one Church having to seriously relinquish Sacred Beliefs, or both Churches having to do those philosophical and intellectual gymnastics which many on both sides find frustrating, political, and ultimately false.

I don’t know how this is ever going to work out, despite His Eminence impressing upon me that it is a truth that we must strive for unity. If two did again become One I feel the result would be something completely alien to BOTH Churches. I fear unity for very simple reasons: I fear having to agree with Roman theology, which I do not believe in and I do not believe is “two ways of saying the same thing”. I fear that the power of the Pope would overpower the rights of Bishops and impede the development of local, autocephalous Churches. I fear having to attend a Novus Ordo Mass, that I will have to affirm truths I do not believe in, and that unity would kill the Church that I love.

Then again it’s pretty good odds that this won’t happen in my lifetime anyway. Still, it’s part of my responsibility to preserve The Church for my future genetic carriers.

I don’t know…
 
Rawb, I’ve got to say that your approach really stifles dialogue. I am not sure how anything very fruitful could ever come out of the constant reaffirmation of pessimism. There is always hope and more than hope there is faith in that which has been prophesied to be inevitable. For a moment, let’s agree that you are right about everything – you are the “big winner.” Well, when people extend the hand of friendship and you bite their fingers, then I would say that you are off-putting regardless of what you have to say. Or, as my Southern Baptist Grandmother would say, “You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.” Perhaps you should take some rest from this site and come back with some renewed vigor or just take a step make and smile your frown away.

Lovingly,

Thomas
 
Dear brother Rawb,

I understand the position you hold, and I do disagree with it. But I must say I have not found your approach to dialog off-putting in the least (unlike others who hold the same position as you).

I welcome your (name removed by moderator)ut here.

However, I am puzzled by your statement “The first part amounts to almost a direct rebuke towards my personal attitude towards reunion, and would thus probably encourage my leaving this site forever.”

Did you come here expecting to proselytize? Though this Forum is the most open I have seen as far as a religious site representing a particular Church in allowing others to express their personal opinions, that is certainly not allowed in this site (like any other religious website representing a particular Church). If you did not come here expecting to proselytize - instead of to learn - why should you have made the comment above?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Well, I think that there are all sorts of reasons to be optimistic, not the least of which is Metropolitan Kallistos himself and his participation in the dialogue!

As an Orthodox Hierarch, his positions are very clear vis-a-vis Roman Catholicism.

At the same time, he is not afraid to be critical of Orthodoxy (ie. the Bulgarian Orthodox Church).

The various points of division can and will be hammered out to create an entirely new synthesis which will become the foundation of a reunited Church, bypassing the limitations of Florence and Lyons and the previous Unia models of unity.

There is every reason to be optimistic.

And, once that unity is achieved, I look forward to my UGCC Church becoming one with its Mother Orthodox Catholic Church.

Alex
 
mardukm said:
Dear brother Rawb,

I understand the position you hold, and I do disagree with it. But I must say I have not found your approach to dialog off-putting in the least (unlike others who hold the same position as you).

I welcome your (name removed by moderator)ut here.

However, I am puzzled by your statement “The first part amounts to almost a direct rebuke towards my personal attitude towards reunion, and would thus probably encourage my leaving this site forever.”

Did you come here expecting to proselytize? Though this Forum is the most open I have seen as far as a religious site representing a particular Church in allowing others to express their personal opinions, that is certainly not allowed in this site (like any other religious website representing a particular Church). If you did not come here expecting to proselytize - instead of to learn - why should you have made the comment above?

Blessings,
Marduk
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No, Marduk, though reading it I can see why you might think that. I didn’t come to proselytize OR to learn really, more just to talk. I used to frequent this site when I was Catholic and I know it’s very active; it’s very easy just to have long conversations about religion, and I really, really like to talk about religion lol. So I’m really here just to talk.

Why I said what I said is because, to be frank at the risk of rudeness, I still loved the Catholic Church when I first came here, but the attitudes I find from Catholics about my faith has killed that. I no longer love the Catholic Church, and His Eminence spoke very clearly about the need to love one another. In the interest of preserving or fostering that love I should distance myself from online debates with Catholics.

I’ve been debating leaving anyway, and I was just thinking aloud about that when I made that comment.
 
Rawb said:
…but the attitudes I find from Catholics about my faith has killed that.
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Interesting, and disappointing. I had the same experience when I posted for a short time at Orthodox Answers. I had gone there to learn a bit more about the Eastern Church and was almost immediately attacked. After a few days of that, I left.

I, for one, hope you do not leave and stick it out here at CAF. I pray regularly for a reunification of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches and hope to see it in my lifetime. I can’t help but think that seeing His church split up like this causes our blessed Lord great pain.
 
tlimon said:
Rawb, I’ve got to say that your approach really stifles dialogue. I am not sure how anything very fruitful could ever come out of the constant reaffirmation of pessimism.
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I’m sorry I was honest? :confused: I don’t do fake optimism tlimon, in fact I generally find it one of the most annoying of emotions. I’m a realist. Despite His Eminence’s luxurious and pleasing way of saying “primacy” he points out that we have yet to establish what that word means, and that’s of “prime” concern in these talks. When we can both agree what that means I’ll feel a bit more optimistic.
For a moment, let’s agree that you are right about everything – you are the “big winner.” Well, when people extend the hand of friendship and you bite their fingers, then I would say that you are off-putting regardless of what you have to say.
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The tone of this completely misrepresents my reason for posting and my attitude towards my faith. I don’t seek to a “big winner”. I’m sorry you find me off-putting, and I bite no fingers of friendship, I just don’t pretend to see things as other than I see them.

I assure you I say all of the above without anger, malice, or anything.
 
Rawb said:
I’m sorry I was honest? :confused: I don’t do fake optimism tlimon, in fact I generally find it one of the most annoying of emotions. I’m a realist. Despite His Eminence’s luxurious and pleasing way of saying “primacy” he points out that we have yet to establish what that word means, and that’s of “prime” concern in these talks. When we can both agree what that means I’ll feel a bit more optimistic.

The tone of this completely misrepresents my reason for posting and my attitude towards my faith. I don’t seek to a “big winner”. I’m sorry you find me off-putting, and I bite no fingers of friendship, I just don’t pretend to see things as other than I see them.

I assure you I say all of the above without anger, malice, or anything.
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There is a thread in the Catholic News section called, “Are talks with Orthodox getting anywhere? Pope says yes.”
 
jam070406 said:
There is a thread in the Catholic News section called, “Are talks with Orthodox getting anywhere? Pope says yes.”
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I don’t put much stock in his Holiness’ opinion on the matter, frankly. He is, rather as Metropolitan Ware is, schooled in the art of politics.
 
Rawb said:
I don’t put much stock in his Holiness’ opinion on the matter, frankly. He is, rather as Metropolitan Ware is, schooled in the art of politics.
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The Pope just met with delegates of Constantinople recently as well.
 
jam070406 said:
There is a thread in the Catholic News section called, “Are talks with Orthodox getting anywhere? Pope says yes.”
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Well, the Pope might be saying yes, but what do the Orthodox Bishops say?

And does the Pope acknowledge the Orthodox Bishop’s opinions on whether or not the talks are getting anywhere?

It is one thing to say, “I think we’re making progress”, but it doesn’t mean much unless BOTH sides feel that progress is being made.

Is the Pope even aware of that? If not, then that’s the problem.
 
Dan-Man916 said:
Well, the Pope might be saying yes, but what do the Orthodox Bishops say?

And does the Pope acknowledge the Orthodox Bishop’s opinions on whether or not the talks are getting anywhere?

It is one thing to say, “I think we’re making progress”, but it doesn’t mean much unless BOTH sides feel that progress is being made.

Is the Pope even aware of that? If not, then that’s the problem.
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It depends on the Bishop. The Ecumenical Patriarchate would probably say yes, progress is being made. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, in his talk linked to above, says that progress has been made and he is correct: Orthodox are talking more frankly, since the meeting at Ravena (sp?), about the role of the Pope and admitting (in so many words) that they were wrong about denying that he had ANY role in the early church as above any other Bishop. The Moscow Patriarch, on the other hand, is notorious for being much more cautious about declaring any steps towards unity, if any at all.

In my opinion that’s such a small amount of progress that I wouldn’t declare it publicly as “progress”. However I came into Orthodoxy at a time when these things are spoken about more frankly, so I’ve never heard Orthodox deny Papal Primacy in extreme terms. Maybe that was a bigger problem in the past than it is now and this is something to proclaim.
 
Rawb said:
I don’t put much stock in his Holiness’ opinion on the matter, frankly. He is, rather as Metropolitan Ware is, schooled in the art of politics.
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That seems like quite a negative way to characterize three great churchmen ot our day. If you want to be fair then really any high ranking bishop (orthodox or catholic) can just as easily be characterized as a politician.
 
Formosus said:
That seems like quite a negative way to characterize three great churchmen ot our day. If you want to be fair then really any high ranking bishop (orthodox or catholic) can just as easily be characterized as a politician.
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Thanks to the advent of the printing press and the proliferation of writings it is sadly easy to oppose oneself to one’s own leaders and those who have been entrusted with the passing on of the Apostolic Faith. Sadly too many authors on both the Catholic and Orthodox side have done nothing but repeat the polemic cliches of the past and thus continue the opposition of one communion of Churches to another. I recently stumbled upon some historical disinformation in the Orthodox Study Bible that would serve to illustrate the point, but I won’t go into that here.

I agree with Rawb to an extent, however. I am not pessimistic that reunion will ever happen, but I believe I am realistic in acknowledging that it will probably not happen in my lifetime. Both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have much to do in taking responsibility for the sins of history as well as in making the extra effort to really understand what the other is saying.
 
Rawb said:
I don’t do fake optimism tlimon, in fact I generally find it one of the most annoying of emotions. I’m a realist. I just don’t pretend to see things as other than I see them.
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Your omission of the last two sentences of my post is telling. You picked out the dissonance and stopped short of the resolution. Being a realist is not antithetical to speaking truth or reality with a kinder and softer veneer. I am certain that his Eminence in the video is probably no more exuberant about reconciliation than you are. That said, he certainly has a way about him that would entice me to listen to more of what he has to say. I am intelligent enough, many are intelligent enough, to read between the lines of sincere decency.

In law school we learn to distance ourselves from the case and deal with fact patterns instead of people. In short, I know a lot about dry “realistic” language. However, we also deal with people and there is no way around that. Working at the County Prosecutor’s office, you learn quickly that those you prosecute are criminals true, but they are also human beings who carry around a lot of baggage. Depicting DUI offenders as “no good drunken bums” may well be accurate but one’s persuasiveness in front of jury increases when you say something like, “The facts clearly show that John Doe is a decent man with a few bad angels but a guilty man none-the-less.” You see what I mean?

I am sorry that people have treated you poorly. Maybe you have treated people poorly in retaliation. Perhaps if all spoke a little sweeter, then we could put some of the passive aggressive stuff to rest. People on CAF can be verbally violent toward one another when they lose sight of the broader goal of apologetics and religious discourse. I know you probably do not want to hear this, but I think you can be guilty of the same Rawb. My mom likes to say, “A good friend will tell you when you have lettuce in your teeth.” Now that you have friended me, I feel like I can take some liberty in telling you! Take care and God bless. I think you are probably a good guy, a jaded guy, but a good guy that spent too much time with the “tit for tat.”

I hope that on second blush that you see my point was actually very narrow. You do not need to fire back right away. Just think about what I said for a bit maybe I have a point. Take care and God bless.
 
Peter_Mogila said:
Noted Orthodox theologian, writer and Metropolitan Bishop Kallistos (Timothy Ware) gave this excellent lecture recently while visiting Atlanta, Georgia. It’s up at You Tube in two parts.

Part 1

youtube.com/watch?v=c_6utrkUjMc

Part 2

youtube.com/watch?v=tAQ_v-0iP70

Peter
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I watched these two clips earlier today. He makes some good observations (e.g. that East and West differed early on regarding the role of the Pope of Rome). Yet, I was hoping for a more direct statement on what changes must take place in the Latin Church and in the Eastern Churches for reunion to occur. Based on my reading of the ecumenical dialogue, there is more change incumbent on the Latin Church for reunion. I do not think the Latin Church is ready to make these changes, however, because it would be seen as an admission of error.
 
Madaglan said:
I watched these two clips earlier today. He makes some good observations (e.g. that East and West differed early on regarding the role of the Pope of Rome). Yet, I was hoping for a more direct statement on what changes must take place in the Latin Church and in the Eastern Churches for reunion to occur. Based on my reading of the ecumenical dialogue, there is more change incumbent on the Latin Church for reunion. I do not think the Latin Church is ready to make these changes, however, because it would be seen as an admission of error.
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It is the High Petrine position which was dogmatized by the Vatican Councils, and the High Petrine teaching requires no admission of heterodoxy or error from either side.

Fortunately, the Absolutist Petrine and Low Petrine views have not been dogmatized. All each Church has to do is cleanse ourselves of these opinionated theologumena for rapprochment to occur on this issue.

The details of praxis will also have to be worked out, but that is not an issue of doctrine.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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