Mexican Catholicism... idolizes Our Lady of Guadalupe?

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Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I just have a very straight question: Do you think Mexican Catholics idolize Our Lady of Guadalupe to the point of turning her into a goddess?

I know that people say that they are only honoring her, but looking at videos from the Mexican City Basilica where men and women are moving on their bleeding knees for miles, it just doesn’t seem right to me, that sort of, well, fanatism… :o

I’ve seen that type of devotion among Mexicans to some saints, such as St. Jude.
My sister-in-law is very anti-Catholic (even though she’s a craddle Catholic). She makes fun of my mother-in-law for having an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in her house. I respect her views as well as our fellos Mexican Catholics, but I don’t show that degree of devotion to Mary nor the saints. I respect them, ask for their intersession, but I don’t go to that extent… 😊

Thank you for your answers!
En Cristo,
Pablo
 
pabloSD said:
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I just have a very straight question: Do you think Mexican Catholics idolize Our Lady of Guadalupe to the point of turning her into a goddess?

I know that people say that they are only honoring her, but looking at videos from the Mexican City Basilica where men and women are moving on their bleeding knees for miles, it just doesn’t seem right to me, that sort of, well, fanatism… :o

I’ve seen that type of devotion among Mexicans to some saints, such as St. Jude.
My sister-in-law is very anti-Catholic (even though she’s a craddle Catholic). She makes fun of my mother-in-law for having an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in her house. I respect her views as well as our fellos Mexican Catholics, but I don’t show that degree of devotion to Mary nor the saints. I respect them, ask for their intersession, but I don’t go to that extent… 😊

Thank you for your answers!
En Cristo,
Pablo
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Good luck with that question!

You will find maybe 2-3 Catholic CAF members out hundreds who will ever admit that Marian devotion can be taken so far by a small minority, that it borders on idolatry.
 
I don’t think that Mexicans are the only group who have poorly catechized individuals who may confuse our Lady’s position in the Church Triumphant. From my travels in Mexico, and elsewhere I have heard many a sermon which clarifies that our Lady is not a Goddess, and is our greatest human advocate before the throne of God.

Just as some mistake the pagan practices of some in Mexico, or the West Indies, Africa or East Asia, as proof that the veneration of the saints is wrong. Or that most or all Catholics in those lands are worshiping Saints of our Lady as gods and goddesses, when in fact these people are either pagans who take Catholic trappings on, or Catholic who were never taught the Faith.

As to the penances preformed in Mexico and other lands, while they seem rather fanatical, they are doing things which are rather mild compaired to the penances imposed on people in the Early Church. Public displays of devotion are frowned upon by modern society, but that does not minimize the merit one can gain from them.
 
I don’t think there is anything wrong with extreme displays of honor towards the saints. Honor in any form towards the saints is acceptable, because showing them honor is not a sin. To think of these fanatical displays as idolatry is problematic because of what idolatry actually is.

First, for these fanatic displays to be idolatrous, the people doing them would actually have to think their actions are -worship-, not just veneration. Next, they would have to be praying to Mary herself to help them, as if she had some kind of power, instead of praying to her to ask for God’s help.

Extreme displays may seem idolatrous because they show such incredible humility and honor towards a saint, but that alone doesn’t constitute idolatry. Remember, when Moses died, the Israelites wept and mourned for thirty days. That wasn’t idolatry. One could compare it to the way Tammuz’s followers wept for him. -That- was idolatry. External appearances can confuse the two, but it is the internal intention that is far more important.
 
OxygenMan said:
First, for these fanatic displays to be idolatrous, the people doing them would actually have to think their actions are -worship-, not just veneration. Next, they would have to be praying to Mary herself to help them, as if she had some kind of power, instead of praying to her to ask for God’s help.
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You don’t know anyone who does this?
 
TrueLight said:
You don’t know anyone who does this?
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I don’t, but that’s probably just because I don’t know many people. Actual Catholics who do this are either sinning intentionally, or were just poorly educated on how to properly honor the saints, and the extent of saintly abilities. I really don’t know much about the state of Catholicism in Mexico, though, so I can only speak from a doctrinal standpoint.
 
pabloSD said:
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I just have a very straight question: Do you think Mexican Catholics idolize Our Lady of Guadalupe to the point of turning her into a goddess?

I know that people say that they are only honoring her, but looking at videos from the Mexican City Basilica where men and women are moving on their bleeding knees for miles, it just doesn’t seem right to me, that sort of, well, fanatism… :o

I’ve seen that type of devotion among Mexicans to some saints, such as St. Jude.
My sister-in-law is very anti-Catholic (even though she’s a craddle Catholic). She makes fun of my mother-in-law for having an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in her house. I respect her views as well as our fellos Mexican Catholics, but I don’t show that degree of devotion to Mary nor the saints. I respect them, ask for their intersession, but I don’t go to that extent… 😊

Thank you for your answers!
En Cristo,
Pablo
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Querido Pablo,

Our Lady of Guadalupe IS Mary, Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ,for Mexicanos…who ask/pray/plead for her intercession with her Son, Jesus…I would say, due to the tale of her appearance and vision and the rose covered pancho, which is still on display in Mexico…she is no more idolatry than when all the recommissioned/reconstructed statues of Isis, Venus, and the other Greek goddesses…were made into and redesigned as Mother Mary…in Greece.

Once all the Greek goddesses were declared heresy by the RCC…it did not go over very well with the greek citizens, whom were used to worshipping several goddesses within their goddess temples, for hundreds of years…eventually the RCC converted all the goddesses statutes into Mary, Mother of Jesus, and their various temples, as places of RCC worship.
 
LayingHands said:
Querido Pablo,

Our Lady of Guadalupe IS Mary, Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ,for Mexicanos…who ask/pray/plead for her intercession with her Son, Jesus…I would say, due to the tale of her appearance and vision and the rose covered pancho, which is still on display in Mexico…she is no more idolatry than when all the recommissioned/reconstructed statues of Isis, Venus, and the other Greek goddesses…were made into and redesigned as Mother Mary…in Greece.

Once all the Greek goddesses were declared heresy by the RCC…it did not go over very well with the greek citizens, whom were used to worshipping several goddesses within their goddess temples, for hundreds of years…eventually the RCC converted all the goddesses statutes into Mary, Mother of Jesus, and their various temples, as places of RCC worship.
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Are you saying they transferred their Goddess worship to our Mother?
 
LayingHands said:
Querido Pablo,

Our Lady of Guadalupe IS Mary, Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ,for Mexicanos…who ask/pray/plead for her intercession with her Son, Jesus…I would say, due to the tale of her appearance and vision and the rose covered pancho, which is still on display in Mexico…she is no more idolatry than when all the recommissioned/reconstructed statues of Isis, Venus, and the other Greek goddesses…were made into and redesigned as Mother Mary…in Greece.

Once all the Greek goddesses were declared heresy by the RCC…it did not go over very well with the greek citizens, whom were used to worshipping several goddesses within their goddess temples, for hundreds of years…eventually the RCC converted all the goddesses statutes into Mary, Mother of Jesus, and their various temples, as places of RCC worship.
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Not to sound hostile, but this idea is sinful, and one that has been refuted by the Church and the Church fathers many times throughout history. Veneration of the saints continues a long tradition of honoring holy men. Honoring and acknowledging those who lived their lives for God and had a special bond with him goes all the way back to the ancient Israelites. Your claim is the same false idea held by the iconoclasts of the old days. It is dangerous when one can’t see the difference between sinful idols and holy images.
 
TrueLight said:
Are you saying they transferred their Goddess worship to our Mother?
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I can’t speak for the original poster who you are questioning, however from my vantagepoint, to use more current terms, I’d describe it as the Church being an early proponant of recycling.

Rather than discard the statues, they re-used them. They no longer were seen as images of former pagan gods and goddesses, but were re-dedicated to be examples of Christian Saints. So it was not a matter of converting the worship of Isis to the veneration of our Lady, but taking a piece of art that was originally a representation of Isis, and dropping the connotation or connection to Isis and repurposing it as a reminder of the Mother of God, Mary most holy.
 
It’s always unhealthy–and, frankly, wrong–to venerate any saint to the point of overshadowing the worship of God, especially when mention is not made of the saint’s connection to Christ’s virtues or something like that.
 
I know quite a few people directly from Mexico in our parish. Their Marian devotion is orthodox. Some walk on their knees in the church. It is a form of penence. These same people also go to daily Mass. They seem to have the fullness of the faith. Our Lady of Guadalupe is very loved by them, as likewise she should be by us since the Church made her the patroness of all the Americas, not just Mexico. The tilma of Juan Diego is most amazing since the impression left on it is a miracle from God. Nothing else like it in the world. Very unique. I think it is our loss to not venerate our Lady of Guadalupe. I participate in the celebrations on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. The hispanic parishoners work all year raising funds to have a big celebration.
 
I’ll just repeat what my mother passed on to me… These were words of wisdom that a priest gave at a talk when asked if some Catholics worshiped Mary.

He said, “Some of us do… but we’re not supposed to.”

There are Catholics who get all kinds of things wrong, including devotion to Our Lady. I imagine some of those Catholics are Mexican Catholics. But a lot of Mexican Catholics (and Catholics of other ethnic backgrounds) venerate Mary without treating her like a deity.
 
*Do you think Mexican Catholics idolize Our Lady of Guadalupe to the point of turning her into a goddess? *

If you ask a representative number of Mexican Catholics do they regard Our Lady of Guadalupe as a goddess you will be able to generalise the answer to the Catholics of Mexico. I am not sure how many Mexican Catholics you would have to ask and whether they would have to be practising Catholics rather than just Baptised Catholics but a statistician would be able to help you.

It is not beyond that bounds of possibility that some Mexician Catholics regard OLG as a goddess but I if they did exist they would be a minority because nowhere in Catholic teaching is Mary regarded as a Goddess.

men and women are moving on their bleeding knees for miles, it just doesn’t seem right to me, that sort of, well, fanatism…

For a start I don’t think that anyone walks on their knees for miles and the knees I have seen are pretty well padded. As for your judgement of ‘fanaticism’ well, that is a subjective judgement and what you judge to be ‘fanaticism’ may be what someone else would regard as devotion. I might regard people who dress up in their team’s football colours from head to toe as fanatics but they might see themselves as fans. I might regard the people who go to the gym everyday and run 10 kilometres every day as fanatics but they might think that they are just trying to be healthy. It’s all in the eye of the beholder.

The Church does not tell the people to behave like this but if a certain culture is more given to outward shows of piety than a more reserved culture e.g. anglo saxon then I don’t think the Church would interfere although I know that the Filipinos have been told by their bishops not to be too extreme on Good Friday.

Your approach to the saints and Our Lady seems to be more of my approach but as long as we don’t go overboard we have nothing to be worried about.

As for your sister-in-law she is being a bigot.
 
The problem isn’t Hispanic Marian devotion. It that Marian devotion is so scared out of its wits in the northern kingdoms that it doesn’t know what to do. Catholics in the north are so scared of Mary that they make her less than a Mary than she should be because they actually care about the sneers of heretics. The problem is that we in the north have adopted a Protestant Mary to suit their sensibilities.

Say it loudly. We are servants of Our Lady, Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-Redemptrix. Bleeding knees? Is that all we have to offer her? She who brought the Son of God into the world? She who knelt by the Cross and suffered every same wound in her soul as she offered her only son to the Father for us? She who now stands by Him and shares in His glory whilst incessantly beseeching God on our behalf to obtain those graces necessary for us?

A little skinned knee is nothing compared to the honour and glory due our Mother.
 
pabloSD said:
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I just have a very straight question: Do you think Mexican Catholics idolize Our Lady of Guadalupe to the point of turning her into a goddess?

I know that people say that they are only honoring her, but looking at videos from the Mexican City Basilica where men and women are moving on their bleeding knees for miles, it just doesn’t seem right to me, that sort of, well, fanatism… :o

I’ve seen that type of devotion among Mexicans to some saints, such as St. Jude.
My sister-in-law is very anti-Catholic (even though she’s a craddle Catholic). She makes fun of my mother-in-law for having an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in her house. I respect her views as well as our fellos Mexican Catholics, but I don’t show that degree of devotion to Mary nor the saints. I respect them, ask for their intersession, but I don’t go to that extent… 😊

Thank you for your answers!
En Cristo,
Pablo
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We Filipinos do the very exact same thing. In fact, here’s something from last weekend in Manila…

youtube.com/watch?v=N0QUHV2eBOs&feature=fvst

Thats about 3 million Filipinos right there. And they also do the walking on knees thing in the church where the Black Nazarene is.
 
I don’t think that the poor humble people mean to over do it but in Mexico all mothers have a very special place. Especialy the mother of Jesus. In the image Guadalupe we find a humble Marry that reveals her self to a Indian Juandiego. And continues to show here love for all Mexicans. By interceding for all are needs. Taking are prayers to her son Jesus. You don’t understand because you do not love Marry as we do . She will never take the place of the Lord but she has a special place in all of Mexicos hart.
 
Mexicans do not believe Mary is God or is a god. Question answered.
Apocalypse 12:
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[1] And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: [2] And being with child,
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This is a perfect description of the tilma of Juan Deigo.
 

I do not think mexicans see her as a goddess at all. You see to honor Jesus perfectly, you need to honor her mother. Please check some views of some saints on Mary:​

“The greatest saints, those richest in grace and virtue will be the most assiduous in praying to the most Blessed Virgin, looking up to her as the perfect model to imitate and as a powerful helper to assist them.”
–Saint Louis Marie

“Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did.”
–Saint Maximilian Kolbe

“Devotion to you, O Blessed Virgin, is a means of salvation which God gives to those whom he wishes to save.”
–Saint John Damascene

”There is no one, O Most Holy Mary, who can know God except through thee; no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee, O Mother of God; no one who can be delivered from dangers but through thee, O Virgin Mother; no one who obtains mercy but through thee, O Filled-With-All-Grace!”
–Saint Germanus of Constantinople, Patriarch of Constantinople

”It is impossible to save one’s soul without devotion to Mary and without her protection.”
–Saint Anselm, Archbishop and Doctor of the Church

”Not only do they offend thee, O Lady, who outrage thee, but thou art also offended by those who neglect to ask thy favors . . . He who neglects the service of the Blessed Virgin will die in his sins . . . He who does not invoke thee, O Lady, will never get to Heaven . . . Not only will those from whom Mary turns her countenance not be saved, but there will be no hope of their salvation . . . No one can be saved without the protection of Mary.
–Saint Bonaventure, Cardinal-Bishop and Doctor of the Church

”I have great doubts about the salvation of those who do not have special devotion to Mary.”
–Saint Francis Borgia

”A man is no true Christian if he has no devotion to the Mother of Jesus Christ.”
–Saint John Eudes

“We must conclude that, being necessary to God by a necessity which is called “hypothetical”, (that is, because God so willed it), the Blessed Virgin is all the more necessary for men to attain their final end. Consequently we must not place devotion to her on the same level as devotion to the other saints as if it were merely something optional.”
–Saint Louis Marie de Montfort

“If devotion to the Blessed Virgin is necessary for all men simply to work out their salvation, it is even more necessary for those who are called to a special perfection. I do not believe that anyone can acquire intimate union with our Lord and perfect fidelity to the Holy Spirit without a very close union with the most Blessed Virgin and an absolute dependence on her support.”
–Saint Louis Marie de Montfort

”To desire grace without recourse to the Virgin Mother is to desire to fly without wings.”
–Pope Pius XII

“Always stay close to this Heavenly Mother, because she is the sea to be crossed to reach the shores of Eternal Splendour.”
–Saint Padre Pio​

Just so you know, I currently live in Mexico (will go back to U.S. in June hopefully), and as an American I tell you that it is them (the Mexicans) who have made me realize that we ought to honor our mother to be in union with his son our Lord. Question yourself, Why would our Lady choose Mexico in the first place for this miraculous event?

My opinion is that it is them (Mexicans) who are very humble to honor our Lady as they do. Nowhere have I see so much devotion to her. I wish America had such devotion for her. Just my point of view.
 
Just so you know, I currently live in Mexico (will go back to U.S. in June hopefully), and as an American I tell you that it is them (the Mexicans) who have made me realize that we ought to honor our mother to be in union with his son our Lord. Question yourself, Why would our Lady choose Mexico in the first place for this miraculous event?
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My opinion is that it is them (Mexicans) who are very humble to honor our Lady as they do. Nowhere have I see so much devotion to her. I wish America had such devotion for her. Just my point of view.
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I wish that myself. 👍

Besides, that little cactus cloth tilma shouldn’t have survived 20 years not to mind 500 years.
 
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