Mexican "Paganism"?

[kooldood]

In Mexico, as some of you probably know, some “pagan” traces exist within the Catholic religion as practiced by some people… sugar skulls, skeletons, shady “purification” practices. Some of them are more innocent and widespread (sugar skulls), some of them are more “pagan-ish” (purifications) and some of them are kind of a mix (altars to the dead, adorned with candles of the Virgen of Guadalupe). The two main questions to this would be… where is the limit?. And, is this even right at all (as defined by the Church)? This is something that has been bothering me for some time.Thanks to all in advance.

 

[Gumbercules]

In Mexico, as some of you probably know, some “pagan” traces exist within the Catholic religion as practiced by some people… sugar skulls, skeletons, shady “purification” practices. Some of them are more innocent and widespread (sugar skulls), some of them are more “pagan-ish” (purifications) and some of them are kind of a mix (altars to the dead, adorned with candles of the Virgen of Guadalupe). The two main questions to this would be… where is the limit?. And, is this even right at all (as defined by the Church)? This is something that has been bothering me for some time.Thanks to all in advance.

As far as I know the bishops have condemned the pagan practices. There is also a cult of “Santo Muerte” or Saint Death.

Check it out.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Muerte

 

[Jim_Dandy]

In Mexico, as some of you probably know, some “pagan” traces exist within the Catholic religion as practiced by some people… sugar skulls, skeletons, shady “purification” practices. Some of them are more innocent and widespread (sugar skulls), some of them are more “pagan-ish” (purifications) and some of them are kind of a mix (altars to the dead, adorned with candles of the Virgen of Guadalupe). The two main questions to this would be… where is the limit?. And, is this even right at all (as defined by the Church)? This is something that has been bothering me for some time.Thanks to all in advance.

Why do cultural differences bother you? Cultural differences are “pagan”? You’ve been influenced by Protestant objections, I presume. “Pagan” is in the eye of the beholder. The images you refer to are from the Dia de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead, or All Souls Day in Mexico. I only wish we gringos honored our departed by visiting them on this day, spending the night in the graveyards with them, as the Mexicans do! The Church has no doctrines regarding these practices. They are cultural. Do I join in your objection? No, siree!

 

[Jim_Dandy]

As far as I know the bishops have condemned the pagan practices. There is also a cult of “Santo Muerte” or Saint Death.

Check it out.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Muerte

The Church condemns false worship wherever it occurs. I have many Mexican friends who have invited me to their Day of the Dead festivities. There is no “Santo Muerte” honored there, but they honor their departed relatives and friends. ’

Not everyone who celebrates the Day of the Dead is engaged in pagan worship.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Sadly, I think some misled folks down there do incorporate paganism into their religion, and I don’t think it’s very innocent as someone above said.

For example, Dia de los Muertos —the Day of the Dead (November 2nd): this seems to be emphansized more than All Souls Day. I’m no expert on it. We watched a video on it in Spanish class. Some of the beliefs they held about the day were kind of weird. For example, they believe that the spirits of the loved ones come to visit on this day. They make offerings on their altars to them.

 

[Hisalone]

Why do cultural differences bother you? Cultural differences are “pagan”? You’ve been influenced by Protestant objections, I presume. “Pagan” is in the eye of the beholder. The images you refer to are from the Dia de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead, or All Souls Day in Mexico. I only wish we gringos honored our departed by visiting them on this day, spending the night in the graveyards with them, as the Mexicans do! The Church has no doctrines regarding these practices. They are cultural. Do I join in your objection? No, siree!

Wow

 

[GeorgeSword]

The cult of Santa Muerte has been condemned by a number of Mexican bishops.

 

[Bailey2]

Day of the Dead
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Dead

Santa Meurte
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Muerte

The two are different. One worships a false god. The other is a Hispanic celebration of All Saint’s Day.

 

[kooldood]

Why do cultural differences bother you? Cultural differences are “pagan”? You’ve been influenced by Protestant objections, I presume. “Pagan” is in the eye of the beholder. The images you refer to are from the Dia de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead, or All Souls Day in Mexico. I only wish we gringos honored our departed by visiting them on this day, spending the night in the graveyards with them, as the Mexicans do! The Church has no doctrines regarding these practices. They are cultural. Do I join in your objection? No, siree!

Yo, I’m Mexican, so don’t you give me the “we gringos” thing (pronounced, “I, gringo”). I’ts an honest question (no cultural differences or such) because (as you can see from other posters) there is some controversy over the matter.

 

[kooldood]

I’m sorry, there seems to have been a confusion. I am not talking about the cult of Santa Muerte. To repeat my question, are those lingerings of Aztec religion in Catholicism OK, or not?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Thank you, Bailey. My point precisely, but you made it better than I did!

To be at a Mexican celebration of the Dia de los Muertos (Day of the Dead) is a real lesson in the Communion of Saints.

 

[CSUNGerrie]

I’m sorry, there seems to have been a confusion. I am not talking about the cult of Santa Muerte. To repeat my question, are those lingerings of Aztec religion in Catholicism OK, or not?

As a Mexican-American Catholic, I have to agree with you on some of these issues. I have no problems with putting up alters to remember the dead, or the sugar skulls thing (though it can be creepy). I do however, take issue with “egg cleansing” and the mixing of sataria that appears to be prevelant among many latino catholics.

Another issue I have been considering lately is the actual worship of status. I cant count the amount of times I have been in debates with my (ex catholic, currently protestant) mom over the whole statue worship. I do my best to explain to her that Catholics dont worship status. She is nevertheless right in stating that even though catholics are not suppose to worship status, many mexican catholics ultimately will literally worship icons of the virgin mary.

I can understand how someone could use an idol as a way to focus their worship of God but many of the Mexican Catholics I have encountered take it too far sometimes. My mom’s biggest complains (which I sometimes agree with) is that Mexican priests need to do a better job of instructing its members on the line between veneration and adoration. When I was young, we once had a priest condemn some of the people for bowing down before every single status of the saints along the wall but completely ignoring the crucifx in the alter and the real presence.

Have any of the other latino catholics on here made similar observations? I really feel something needs to be done to help our community. I firmly believe that one of the reasons why latino protestants are growing is because protestant evangelicals easily pick off many Latinos who sometimes dont realize that they are not suppose to be worshiping status.

 

[jewells17]

Marcia helped me understand paganism on her website www.christiananswersforthenewage.org
she was pagan for a long time and read her personal story…it’s about this stuff and real interesting for the open minded person.

 

[kooldood]

As a Mexican-American Catholic, I have to agree with you on some of these issues. I have no problems with putting up alters to remember the dead, or the sugar skulls thing (though it can be creepy). I do however, take issue with “egg cleansing” and the mixing of sataria that appears to be prevelant among many latino catholics.

Another issue I have been considering lately is the actual worship of status. I cant count the amount of times I have been in debates with my (ex catholic, currently protestant) mom over the whole statue worship. I do my best to explain to her that Catholics dont worship status. She is nevertheless right in stating that even though catholics are not suppose to worship status, many mexican catholics ultimately will literally worship icons of the virgin mary.

I can understand how someone could use an idol as a way to focus their worship of God but many of the Mexican Catholics I have encountered take it too far sometimes. My mom’s biggest complains (which I sometimes agree with) is that Mexican priests need to do a better job of instructing its members on the line between veneration and adoration. When I was young, we once had a priest condemn some of the people for bowing down before every single status of the saints along the wall but completely ignoring the crucifx in the alter and the real presence.

Have any of the other latino catholics on here made similar observations? I really feel something needs to be done to help our community. I firmly believe that one of the reasons why latino protestants are growing is because protestant evangelicals easily pick off many Latinos who sometimes dont realize that they are not suppose to be worshiping status.

exactly. my feelings exactly. this is why i had placed this thread… because of the misguided mexican paganism which has unfortunetly mixed with Catholicism. I actually had not thought that this was a reason why protestantism in latinamerica was growing, but now that i think about it, it does make sense. the worshipping statues is only one thing. like you said, all that about the eggs and the spirits, and the curandero (witch doctor) who makes you vomit… all that has nothing to do with catholicism, but too often it is taken as a part of the catholic religion in mexico. something has to be done, but actually the Catholic religion in mexico has been receiving help from the secular community/media. The media especially has been condemning the pagan tradition as a prehistoric-type superstition. But anyway, yeah, paganism is too connected with Catholicism in Mexico. This has to be changed.

 

[peary1]

In Mexico, as some of you probably know, some “pagan” traces exist within the Catholic religion as practiced by some people… sugar skulls, skeletons, shady “purification” practices. Some of them are more innocent and widespread (sugar skulls), some of them are more “pagan-ish” (purifications) and some of them are kind of a mix (altars to the dead, adorned with candles of the Virgen of Guadalupe). The two main questions to this would be… where is the limit?. And, is this even right at all (as defined by the Church)? This is something that has been bothering me for some time.Thanks to all in advance.

You are probably referring to the “Day of the Dead” celebration. The holiday focuses on gatherings of family and friends to pray for and remember friends and family members who have died. It coincides with the Catholic Church’s Feastdays of All Saints on Nov. 1, and All Souls on Nov. 2.

According to Wikipedia, traditions include building private altars honoring the deceased, using sugar skulls, marigolds, and the favorite foods and beverages of the departed, and visiting graves with these as gifts.

Scholars trace the origins of the modern holiday to indigenous observances dating back thousands of years, and to an Aztec festival dedicated to a goddess called Mictecacihuatl.

But similar holidays are celebrated in many parts of the world; for example, it’s a public holiday (Dia de Finados) in Brazil, where many Brazilians celebrate by visiting cemeteries and churches. In Spain, there are festivals and parades, and at the end of the day, people gather at cemeteries and pray for their loved ones who have died. Similar observances occur elsewhere in Europe (such as in Italy) and in the Philippines, and similarly-themed celebrations appear in many Asian and African cultures.

Due to its time being close to Halloween, The “Day of the Dead” is commonly thought to be similar to Halloween, although *the two holidays actually have little in common. *The “Day of the Dead” is a time of celebration, where partying is very common, although this is not very well understood in the U.S. because they celebrate Halloween as a “scary” holiday, where people will put up scary decorations and have children knock on doors for candy. It can also be the same vice-versa.

Please read the Wikipedia article for more info.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Dead

 

[CSUNGerrie]

exactly. my feelings exactly. this is why i had placed this thread… because of the misguided mexican paganism which has unfortunetly mixed with Catholicism. I actually had not thought that this was a reason why protestantism in latinamerica was growing, but now that i think about it, it does make sense. the worshipping statues is only one thing. like you said, all that about the eggs and the spirits, and the curandero (witch doctor) who makes you vomit… all that has nothing to do with catholicism, but too often it is taken as a part of the catholic religion in mexico. something has to be done, but actually the Catholic religion in mexico has been receiving help from the secular community/media. The media especially has been condemning the pagan tradition as a prehistoric-type superstition. But anyway, yeah, paganism is too connected with Catholicism in Mexico. This has to be changed.

All the relatives I talk to who use to be Catholics will commonly say something like

“… one day I was talking to this or that lady who asked if I knew Jesus Personally. When I started telling them about my statue of this saint, they pointed out in the bible how God doesnt want us to worship status. I was deceived when I was Catholic. The priest never mentioned to me that it was wrong for me to worship status.”

I think there are many cases in which Mexicans arent infact worshipping status but are nevertheless led by protestants to think it is a sin to use a statue as an instrument of prayer. THat is why I think Priest instructing their parish members would go a long way. It would stop the actual statue worship of those who worship statues, and it would help instruct Catholics who dont how to properly defend their faith against the accusation of statue worship.

I feel that Latino Catholics have the passion and devotion to the church, they are just misguided by many pagan practices that hide themself as Catholic.

 

[kooldood]

Peary 1: actually, I am a Mexican, and I celebrate Day of the Dead. I am partly referring to Day of the Dead when I talk about the sugar skulls. What I am actually referring to I have already explained; the curandero, the broken eggs, the amulets, the worshipping statues, etc. A Mexican is probably more trustworthy than an encyclopedia anybody can edit. Yes, I would agree, CSUNGerrie that there are many cases in which people really do not worship statues, but still, there are times when they do worship. Though yes, things like what you mention happen too often, even with American Catholics

 

[peary1]

All the relatives I talk to who use to be Catholics will commonly say something like

“… one day I was talking to this or that lady who asked if I knew Jesus Personally. When I started telling them about my statue of this saint, they pointed out in the bible how God doesnt want us to worship status. I was deceived when I was Catholic. The priest never mentioned to me that it was wrong for me to worship statues.”

**Answers such as that are either “made up” as a benefit for those in these forums (benefit? poor choice of a word, actually), or if such statements are made, they are made in complete ignorance of the Faith and Church teaching. No wonder there are “used to be’s”!

Personally, I have never in all of my years (many) heard any former Catholic give such a reason for leaving the Church. Most leave because they either do not agree with some of the Church’s teachings and refuse to live by them, or are engaged in a wrong behavior that the Church disagrees with. Never have I met a former Catholic who mentioned anything about ‘statues’. That is just bogus.**

I think there are many cases in which Mexicans arent infact worshipping status but are nevertheless led by protestants to think it is a sin to use a statue as an instrument of prayer. THat is why I think Priest instructing their parish members would go a long way. It would stop the actual statue worship of those who worship statues, and it would help instruct Catholics who dont how to properly defend their faith against the accusation of statue worship.

The Church does not teach worship of statues. The Church does not instruct the Faithful to worship statues. Statues may be sacramentals in some sense, but they in no way are worshipped.

They can be likened (although somewhat poorly) to the Church’s eastern practice of iconography (icons). Icons are sacred paintings of (icons, frescoes and mosaics) of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, of the Most Holy Mother of God, and of the Angels and Saints. They are an integral part of the Orthodox Faith in the East. Icons have a profound spiritual meaning. An icon is a Window into Heaven. This Window into Heaven will enable someone who is praying to the person depicted in the icon, to directly connect with that person : our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Most Holy Mother of God, an Angel or Saint. Many icons are miraculous as many people who prayed to them were cured of their affliction. An icon is an efficient means for knowing God. It is not only a work of art that depicts Scripture, but is essentially a confession of religious truths. The painter is one who emerses himself or herself in prayer, meditation and fasting.

Statues in Western churches often are looked upon in the same way. The statues are of Jesus, Mary, and the saints. They too have a profound spiritual meaning. They too can become a “window into Heaven.” They too may enable someone who is praying to the depicted person to directly connect with that person at a spiritual level.

Some statues have also been miraculous. There have been substantiated and confirmed reports that some have cried with real tears, sometimes perfumed, and the sick have been cured of their afflictions.

In either case, icons and statues are valid Christian pathways that are a true confession of a religious Truth. Make no mistake about it.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE=kooldood;5951810]I’m sorry, there seems to have been a confusion. I am not talking about the cult of Santa Muerte. To repeat my question, are those lingerings of Aztec religion in Catholicism OK, or not?

The Aztec religion does not carry with it rigid forms of defining their creator deity “Ometeotl”. The complexity of the Aztec religion and Nahuatl language dissolves the rigidity of their deity reflection and meditation in order to grow spiritually. The Aztecs did not convert to Catholicism because they were conquered by the Conquistadors, they converted ultimately because of the Virgin Mary, and not by what she spoke and revealed but by her apparition and apparel which speaks “volumes” of the Aztec belief’s. The vision on the tilma reveals the Gospels to the Aztec mindset in an instant. We of rigid thought cannot comprehend the Virgin’s apparel all at once, we need to take one detail at a time.

I introduce this to reveal that the Catholic church should be very careful and patient, and come to the understanding of what the Mexicans are truly believing and practicing as Catholics. There can be no doubt, mexican drug lords are known to enter idolatry with a Catholic background.

But the complexity of the mexican people’s mixture of them finding their identity from the Aztecas while being Catholic can be very complicated, unless one learns and understands the Azteca mindset because the mexican people are ingrained with this Aztec blood of friendship, family, worshipping and faith,never to exclude the strong faith in sacrifice which has never left the mexicans well being.

For example the day of the dead celebration is recognized by the Catholic Church as acceptable. If the Church can truly investigate that these mexicans are recognizing their identity and culture mixing with Catholicism is a cultural colorful aspect of their indentity which to the rigid mindset on the outside may appear to be “pagan” but to the mexican compliments and supports their Catholic belief’s even stronger.

This is a very delicate matter that needs to be dealt with from patience and understanding. We of a rigid mind must not be to hasty to destroy again who they are culturally and where they come from. They come from two conquering peoples the Spanish mixed with the Aztecs who themselves were conquerers in their own right.

Does paganism exist in mexico? yes, but we cannot exclude all other nations. We can learn alot from these Mexicans who are faithful Catholics that may reveal a practice that is in full communion with the Church’s teachings as the “day of dead”, but remains to be seen.

 

[EmergencyOps]

This topic is something I have always been interested in knowing more about, as I have seen examples of this first-hand when in Eagle Pass, TX and Piedras Negras, Mexico.

Another issue I have been considering lately is the actual worship of status. I cant count the amount of times I have been in debates with my (ex catholic, currently protestant) mom over the whole statue worship. I do my best to explain to her that Catholics dont worship status. She is nevertheless right in stating that even though catholics are not suppose to worship status, many mexican catholics ultimately will literally worship icons of the virgin mary.

…we once had a priest condemn some of the people for bowing down before every single status of the saints along the wall but completely ignoring the crucifx in the alter and the real presence.

…I firmly believe that one of the reasons why latino protestants are growing is because protestant evangelicals easily pick off many Latinos who sometimes dont realize that they are not suppose to be worshiping status.

It took me a while to figure out that you were referring to statues (scultpted depictions of a person) and not status (a position or rank in relation to others)