Mexican "Paganism"?

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Gabriel_of_12 said:
The Aztec religion does not carry with it rigid forms of defining their creator deity “Ometeotl”. The complexity of the Aztec religion and Nahuatl language dissolves the rigidity of their deity reflection and meditation in order to grow spiritually. The Aztecs did not convert to Catholicism because they were conquered by the Conquistadors, they converted ultimately because of the Virgin Mary, and not by what she spoke and revealed but by her apparition and apparel which speaks “volumes” of the Aztec belief’s. The vision on the tilma reveals the Gospels to the Aztec mindset in an instant. We of rigid thought cannot comprehend the Virgin’s apparel all at once, we need to take one detail at a time.

I introduce this to reveal that the Catholic church should be very careful and patient, and come to the understanding of what the Mexicans are truly believing and practicing as Catholics. There can be no doubt, mexican drug lords are known to enter idolatry with a Catholic background.

But the complexity of the mexican people’s mixture of them finding their identity from the Aztecas while being Catholic can be very complicated, unless one learns and understands the Azteca mindset because the mexican people are ingrained with this Aztec blood of friendship, family, worshipping and faith,never to exclude the strong faith in sacrifice which has never left the mexicans well being.

For example the day of the dead celebration is recognized by the Catholic Church as acceptable. If the Church can truly investigate that these mexicans are recognizing their identity and culture mixing with Catholicism is a cultural colorful aspect of their indentity which to the rigid mindset on the outside may appear to be “pagan” but to the mexican compliments and supports their Catholic belief’s even stronger.

This is a very delicate matter that needs to be dealt with from patience and understanding. We of a rigid mind must not be to hasty to destroy again who they are culturally and where they come from. They come from two conquering peoples the Spanish mixed with the Aztecs who themselves were conquerers in their own right.

Does paganism exist in mexico? yes, but we cannot exclude all other nations. We can learn alot from these Mexicans who are faithful Catholics that may reveal a practice that is in full communion with the Church’s teachings as the “day of dead”, but remains to be seen.
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First, thank you Gabriel 12 for telling us that the day of the dead is in full commuion with the Church. I guess it is something I wanted to know but for some reason didn’t put down as a question. :o Second, as I have said, I am a Mexican, so I have no intention to “destroy again who they are culturally and where they come from”. Also, when you say that the pagan/Aztec/? beliefs, when mixed with the Catholic faith, “compliment it and strenghten it”, I am not sure you know of several aspects and consequences of this mix. In Mexico, people who are otherwise faithful Catholics will go to a curandero (witch doctor) to be healed. The curandero, as CSUNGerrie said, will do things like rub raw eggs, make you vomit, or spit fire on you. This weakens the Catholic Faith and its followers because when, again, as CSUNGerrie said, an Evangelical Protestant knows how to take advantage of the fact that many Catholics do not know or do not care that this is wrong.

To peary 1, nobody said that the Catholic Church actually worships, or permits the worship, of statues. What has been said is that many mexicans do not know that worshipping statues is wrong. Also, maybe nobody has been converted to Protestantism by the sole “worshipping statues” issue, but it has certainly been an important role in the “evangelical-protestant-comes-up-to-Catholic-and-says-do-you-know-Jesus-Christ-personally” scenario. It is the equivalent of the Immaculate Conception stumbling block when combatting protestants in apologetics.
 
GeorgeSword said:
The cult of Santa Muerte has been condemned by a number of Mexican bishops.
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Syncretism is forbidden by the Catholic Church.

Syncretism:
a combination, reconciliation, or coalescence of varying, often mutually opposed beliefs, principles, or practices, esp. those of various religions, into a new conglomerate whole typically marked by internal inconsistencies

Pagan worship (worship of false gods) and Catholic worship (worship of God) are diametrically opposed to each other. They are exactly opposite of each other so syncretism of pagan belief/practices into Catholic Worship Practices is particularly forbidden.
 
kooldood said:
First, thank you Gabriel 12 for telling us that the day of the dead is in full commuion with the Church. I guess it is something I wanted to know but for some reason didn’t put down as a question. :o Second, as I have said, I am a Mexican, so I have no intention to “destroy again who they are culturally and where they come from”. Also, when you say that the pagan/Aztec/? beliefs, when mixed with the Catholic faith, “compliment it and strenghten it”, I am not sure you know of several aspects and consequences of this mix. In Mexico, people who are otherwise faithful Catholics will go to a curandero (witch doctor) to be healed. The curandero, as CSUNGerrie said, will do things like rub raw eggs, make you vomit, or spit fire on you. This weakens the Catholic Faith and its followers because when, again, as CSUNGerrie said, an Evangelical Protestant knows how to take advantage of the fact that many Catholics do not know or do not care that this is wrong.

To peary 1, nobody said that the Catholic Church actually worships, or permits the worship, of statues. What has been said is that many mexicans do not know that worshipping statues is wrong. Also, maybe nobody has been converted to Protestantism by the sole “worshipping statues” issue, but it has certainly been an important role in the “evangelical-protestant-comes-up-to-Catholic-and-says-do-you-know-Jesus-Christ-personally” scenario. It is the equivalent of the Immaculate Conception stumbling block when combatting protestants in apologetics.
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Superstition is what caused the Aztec empire to fall victim to the Conquistador’s. Superstition is in every culture, some bigger than others, especially among the indigenous peoples. In addressing the mexican faithful Catholics who continue the practice of cultural medicines and healings border lines paganology, “But” I am of the opinion that each case would need to be examined case by case and the persons disposition is what really matters. For example, my mother would place Cactus skins on a burn, which removed the pain and scarring of the tissue. Does this mean she practiced paganology because this medicine was passed down to her from many generations?

You raise many good valid points here of a complicated subject. “The day of dead” is not a feast celebrated by the Church, Here feast “All Saints day” which falls around the same time on different days between Oct. and Nov. Again the disposition of the Catholics who practice the mexican cultural “day of the dead” of remembering their dead loved ones can border line with paganism. The practice is permitted by the Church because the practice believes in the life after death, which the Church teaches. But to feed the dead candy or sweet bread is another level of understanding.

Mexicans who have not been catechised correctly of portraits, statues, candles etc. Who are born into the culture without proper instruction, and then are confronted that they are worshipping statues gives them a new revelation and understanding that their practice is wrong. It is here that both protestant and uncatechised person are need of instruction.

To solve this idol worship, and paganology understanding comes with proper teaching and instruction from the Catholic faithful and religious. This situation cries out for the Church to move outside her walls and evangelize (sacrafice) and instruct the lost and unlearned.

The mixture I introduced is the “Faith” which compliments their Catholicism, not their Aztec practices. This is a fine line to walk, because the mexican Catholic faith has cultural attachments as do other Catholic peoples. The disposition and practice is what need clarification and understanding from both those practicing and those seeing the cultural practice.
 
Kooldood and Gabriel12,
Your last posts were right on. We definitely need to encourge much more doctrinal instruction among all communities. Proper instruction = enhanced doctrinal awareness + Apologetics for evangelization.

Many of my family who were formally catholic are shocked when I tell them that the church teaches the real presence. “You mean… it isnt just a symbol?” :banghead:
 
CSUNGerrie said:
Kooldood and Gabriel12,
Your last posts were right on. We definitely need to encourge much more doctrinal instruction among all communities. Proper instruction = enhanced doctrinal awareness + Apologetics for evangelization.

Many of my family who were formally catholic are shocked when I tell them that the church teaches the real presence. “You mean… it isnt just a symbol?” :banghead:
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That’s an excellent point you raised; Catholics have left the True Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Church, for a symbolic or metaphorical Jesus in a non-catholic or Protestant Church, because of lack of or incorrect catechises (instruction of the Catholic faith). I believe Kooldood’s concern touches every society not just Mexico.

A vacationing cousin visiting me, told me that she recieved communion in non catholic church’s during her travels because it was all the same to her; She was shocked as well when I explained the difference of communions. Because she is older than I, she did not believe me, and told me, she would have to look into the matter with her priest when she returned home from vacations. I think catechesis begins with self first and then our own family.
 
I heard it said once that Protestants usually convert the most doctrinally ignorant Catholics. Whereas, Catholics usually convert the most doctrinally knowledge protestants.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
A vacationing cousin visiting me, told me that she recieved communion in non catholic church’s during her travels because it was all the same to her; She was shocked as well when I explained the difference of communions. Because she is older than I, she did not believe me, and told me, she would have to look into the matter with her priest when she returned home from vacations. I think catechesis begins with self first and then our own family.
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Wow…how old is this cousin of yours who doesn’t know about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and yet has gone to Mass for years??? Poor catechetics doesn’t do her ignorance any justice. 🤷
 
My grandmother was American born, but of Irish descent. I opened up an umbrella in her house in 1966 and she said that was bad luck, then laughed…but I was surprised…very devout Catholic…

But they had alot of superstitions and alot of that was wiped out in the Potato Famine…

There are people there who believe in the fairies and banshees…
 
KathleenGee said:
My grandmother was American born, but of Irish descent. I opened up an umbrella in her house in 1966 and she said that was bad luck, then laughed…but I was surprised…very devout Catholic…

But they had alot of superstitions and alot of that was wiped out in the Potato Famine…

There are people there who believe in the fairies and banshees…
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Which reminds me of one of my favorite Disney movies “Darby O’Gill & the Little People.” Every Irish superstition is represented in that movie, from fairies and leprauchans to the infamous Banshee. Love it love it love it!
 
Oh yesssss…

I recalled it trying to get our collie pup into the ‘death coach’…no, what happened was that he ate something terrible and was sick for 5 weeks…suffered very much, 13 months white sable, beautiful and a real character…

The night before we cried and prayed…he even got on my lap so we could pray some more for him, rosaries, chaplets…but he was still sick.

So the next day at 4:30 we had him scheduled to be put down…I leashed him up and led him to the car he usually loved to go in…he pulled back so hard…I couldn’t do it…called the vet and he thought may be the dog had liver cancer…and we would just let him pass on at home…

I had to go out to an evening case…he was looking at me…I said to him,’ If you would only eat your food!!!’…he turned his head from side to side and little twinkles in his eyes…I came home and thought I heard him barking on the deck…

He was eating several bowls of rice and chicken…my husband said he came in thinking the dog dead in our daughter’s room…opened the fridge and then he heard scampering and here came our Julius…

He lived for many years, never was sick until the last two weeks and passed away this summer, the day after my daughter’s wedding…this time he was looking out at the field this time with the sun setting and his eyes all aglow and looking out at nature, full alert looking out and so happy, being drawn to go back out to meet it and be part of it again…He was known around the area here for his tramping and very happy personality…he used to hit people on the back with sticks as well…
 
peary1 said:
Wow…how old is this cousin of yours who doesn’t know about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and yet has gone to Mass for years??? Poor catechetics doesn’t do her ignorance any justice. 🤷
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No, it was not that she did not believe in the “True Presence” she thought everyone did, that it was all the same to her. Although I detected a little doubt to be sure.
 
In the Catechism of the Catholic churcht1hat the church believes and teaches)
Veneration of holy images:
2131 basing itself on the mystery of the incarnat world, the seventh ecumenical counsil at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons- of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new " economy" of images.
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2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered an image passes to its prototype,“and " whoever” venerates an image venerates the person protrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a " respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themelves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspects as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward the image, but tends toward that whose image it is.
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2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first comandment
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Veneration, CCC glossary states

Veneration(of saints) Showing devotion and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witness to faith in Jesus Christ. Later, veneration was given to those who led a life of prayer and self-denial in giving witness to Christ, whose virtues were recognized and publicly proclaimed in their canonization as saints. Such veneration is often extended to the relics or remains of those recognized as saints; indeed, to many sacred objects and images. Veneration must be clearly distinguished from adoration and worship, which are due to god alone.
 
The Mexicans and others South of the border are sacramentalized but they do not know Scripture…many cannot read.

So these sects use Scripture and a little of the Prosperity Gospel to take them into their fellowship.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
No, it was not that she did not believe in the “True Presence” she thought everyone did, that it was all the same to her. Although I detected a little doubt to be sure.
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I hoope by now she realizes that most protestant denominations do NOT believe in the True Presence. For them it is either a symbol of Christ’s body and blood or that He comes to them during Communion only in a spiritual way.
 
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