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redrosetea
Guest
I am trying to figure out why you would fast track a confirmation, or a baptism?
I think it must be registered in the diocese, and if they don’t think it is valid what good would it do you?
I don’t know if this story is really true or not, but it is very weird…
I think it must be registered in the diocese, and if they don’t think it is valid what good would it do you?
I don’t know if this story is really true or not, but it is very weird…
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Benedict108
Guest
Well, CathNewsAsia gained their story from the Los Angeles Times:
Beloved Mexican priest is branded a rogue
Beloved Mexican priest is branded a rogue
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redrosetea
Guest
It doesn’t matter where it came from it is just strange…the whole thing sounds sort of bizarre to me
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Benedict108
Guest
Oh it is strange without a doubt. I find it strange and morally abhorrent to say the least. I like you don’t understand why people would ‘pay’ to have a Sacrament administered, and it is true that reception of such Sacraments would have to be registered with church/diocese. However, it would seem that the people who are partaking in these activities are ignorant of these facts.
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Stylites
Guest
From the LA Times comments to this sad article:
It’s hardly surprising that the LAT would look favorably upon a man like Father Ray, casting the archbishop and the institutional Catholic Church as the dark rain cloud over Fr. Ray’s parade. Could the hackneyed storyline be any more clicheed, or the moral relativism any thicker? Just imagine if priests of the L.A. Archdiocese were selling sacraments at $180 apiece. The Times would sniff them out and excoriate them for their greed and hypocrisy. In fact, people are still criticizing the Catholic Church all these centuries later for its corrupt practices during the Middle Ages, chief among them simony. But it’s okay for Fr. Ray to do it because he built his parishioners a fancy church and is taking the money from well-to-do Americans?
Supposedly, Judas Iscariat was the 1st “Liberation Theologist” since he was seeking to empower the poor (i.e., himself).U.S. Catholics who want fast-tracked Confirmations and First Communions for their kids aren’t willing to commit themselves to actually learning the faith (often through 6-month catechism programs), preferring instead to keep that time open for soccer practice and dance lessons. Fr. Ray is aiding and abetting them in this, not to mention doing something that his Church considers both sinful and damaging to the faithful. Cults of personality like this, particularly with priests, are often dangerous. Fr. Ray would do well to honor the vows he took as a priest, and demonstrate the humility Christ called him to live out in his ministry.
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MoonChild02
Guest
It doesn’t have to be registered in the diocese. I don’t know about fast tracking Baptism. However, Cardinal Mahoney requires that everyone receiving Confirmation in California MUST be 15 years or older. Cardinals of other states have lower age requirements. In Mexico, even babies can be confirmed. Some Californian children don’t want to wait until they’re 15 to be confirmed, because they feel that they’re mature enough to make their decision about what religion they want to be.I am trying to figure out why you would fast track a confirmation, or a baptism?
I think it must be registered in the diocese, and if they don’t think it is valid what good would it do you?
I don’t know if this story is really true or not, but it is very weird…
So, what ends up happening is that these families make a deal with the priests and bishops in Mexico to let the children take their Confirmation there, instead of waiting to be the correct age in California. There are homeschooling families that go through religious homeschooling academies that do this all the time, because the families teach their children religion, so they don’t really need to go through the required two years of Confirmation classes that the churches require them to take through the parish, when they’re already being taught these same lessons at home.
I know this because I have friends who did this. I skipped through the classes because I went to Catholic school, and my parish priest waved me through the program so long as he saw me at Church every week for a year. However, most priests aren’t that understanding or lenient, especially the priests in the L.A. diocese, where my friends are from, because that’s Cardinal Mahoney’s diocese. So, they fast tracked through in Mexico.
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Stylites
Guest
How much money did your friends pay for their sacraments, apart from the graces they also relinquished by acting upon their impatience and pride?I know this because I have friends who did this. . . . So, they fast tracked through in Mexico.
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redrosetea
Guest
In my state all records are kept in the diocese to which a person was baptized and confirmed…You need these records before you can marry…We must show proof we have received the sacraments before we can be wedIt doesn’t have to be registered in the diocese. I don’t know about fast tracking Baptism. However, Cardinal Mahoney requires that everyone receiving Confirmation in California MUST be 15 years or older. Cardinals of other states have lower age requirements. In Mexico, even babies can be confirmed. Some Californian children don’t want to wait until they’re 15 to be confirmed, because they feel that they’re mature enough to make their decision about what religion they want to be.
So, what ends up happening is that these families make a deal with the priests and bishops in Mexico to let the children take their Confirmation there, instead of waiting to be the correct age in California. There are homeschooling families that go through religious homeschooling academies that do this all the time, because the families teach their children religion, so they don’t really need to go through the required two years of Confirmation classes that the churches require them to take through the parish, when they’re already being taught these same lessons at home.
I know this because I have friends who did this. I skipped through the classes because I went to Catholic school, and my parish priest waved me through the program so long as he saw me at Church every week for a year. However, most priests aren’t that understanding or lenient, especially the priests in the L.A. diocese, where my friends are from, because that’s Cardinal Mahoney’s diocese. So, they fast tracked through in Mexico.
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Benedict108
Guest
I agree with you on this. The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses simony:How much money did your friends pay for their sacraments, apart from the graces they also relinquished by acting upon their impatience and pride?
2118 God’s first commandment condemns the main sins of irreligion: tempting God, in words or deeds, sacrilege, and simony
2121 Simony is defined as the buying or selling of spiritual things.53 To Simon the magician, who wanted to buy the spiritual power he saw at work in the apostles, St. Peter responded: "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain God’s gift with money!"54 Peter thus held to the words of Jesus: "You received without pay, give without pay."55 It is impossible to appropriate to oneself spiritual goods and behave toward them as their owner or master, for they have their source in God. One can receive them only from him, without payment.
Retrieved from: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm2122 The minister should ask nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by the competent authority, always being careful that the needy are not deprived of the help of the sacraments because of their poverty."56 The competent authority determines these “offerings” in accordance with the principle that the Christian people ought to contribute to the support of the Church’s ministers. "The laborer deserves his food."57
If people are paying for the sacrament, it is invalid. If a priest comes into a diocese and operates without diocesan permission; then, he is acting against obedience and does not have the faculties to administer sacraments such as Confirmation, as this would require the approval of the local ordinary.
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Benedict108
Guest
Just to add to my last point, as the priest in question was coming into the United States from Mexico to exercise his faculties:
Can. 882 The ordinary minister of confir-mation is a bishop; a presbyter provided with this faculty in virtue of universal law or the special grant of the competent authority also confers this sacrament validly.
Can. 883 The following possess the faculty of administering confirmation by the law itself:
1/ within the boundaries of their jurisdiction, those who are equivalent in law to a diocesan bishop;
2/ as regards the person in question, the presbyter who by virtue of office or mandate of the diocesan bishop baptizes one who is no longer an infant or admits one already baptized into the full communion of the Catholic Church;
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P32.HTM3/ as regards those who are in danger of death, the pastor or indeed any presbyter.
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MoonChild02
Guest
I don’t know if they payed at all. I don’t think it’s right to have to pay as much as the priest in the article was taking. However, anyone who receives such a sacrament has to pay at least a small amount, due to cost of required materials (workbooks for classes, candles and robes for the sacraments themselves), the retreat to get them ready for receiving such a sacrament, and paperwork (and yes, there is paperwork that has to be done on each person who makes a sacrament. A notice has to go to the church in which the person was baptized, to confirm that all the previous sacraments had been made, and then the paperwork of the current sacrament made has to be put in the archives of the diocese in which it was made).How much money did your friends pay for their sacraments, apart from the graces they also relinquished by acting upon their impatience and pride?
And it wasn’t impatience or pride, it’s just that they had taught their children well, and the children were ready to be Confirmed. The only problem was, in California, the age requirement is rather high because the Cardinal doesn’t think that anyone below the age of 15 is mature enough to make such a strong decision about faith, and has made this clear to all the other bishops in the state. However, St. Thomas Aquinas said, “Age of body does not determine age of soul. Even in childhood man can attain spiritual maturity: as the book of Wisdom says: ‘For old age is not honored for length of time, or measured by number of years.’ Many children, through the strength of the Holy Spirit they have received, have bravely fought for Christ even to the shedding of their blood.” Also, Canon Law 891 states that the faithful should receive Confirmation at about the age of discretion. Such an age is, by tradition, at 7 or 8 years of age, not 15. Although it states that the conference of bishops may decide when the appropriate age is, the USCCB leaves that up to the diocese. However, it does NOT say that you cannot go to another diocese with a different age and have your sacraments done there.
Therefore, so long as a person has met the minimum requirements - which in this case is that they be at least 7 years old, have been baptized, and be in the state of grace - they should be allowed to receive such a sacrament.
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Holly3278
Guest
Wow. I hope these accusations are not true. But it seems as though they are true. Lord, have mercy.
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Benedict108
Guest
Discussing the age of tradition, the minimum age was 7 and should not exceed 12 years of age, according the Catechism of the Council of Trent.I don’t know if they payed at all. I don’t think it’s right to have to pay as much as the priest in the article was taking. However, anyone who receives such a sacrament has to pay at least a small amount, due to cost of required materials (workbooks for classes, candles and robes for the sacraments themselves), the retreat to get them ready for receiving such a sacrament, and paperwork (and yes, there is paperwork that has to be done on each person who makes a sacrament. A notice has to go to the church in which the person was baptized, to confirm that all the previous sacraments had been made, and then the paperwork of the current sacrament made has to be put in the archives of the diocese in which it was made).
And it wasn’t impatience or pride, it’s just that they had taught their children well, and the children were ready to be Confirmed. The only problem was, in California, the age requirement is rather high because the Cardinal doesn’t think that anyone below the age of 15 is mature enough to make such a strong decision about faith, and has made this clear to all the other bishops in the state. However, St. Thomas Aquinas said, “Age of body does not determine age of soul. Even in childhood man can attain spiritual maturity: as the book of Wisdom says: ‘For old age is not honored for length of time, or measured by number of years.’ Many children, through the strength of the Holy Spirit they have received, have bravely fought for Christ even to the shedding of their blood.” Also, Canon Law 891 states that the faithful should receive Confirmation at about the age of discretion. Such an age is, by tradition, at 7 or 8 years of age, not 15. Although it states that the conference of bishops may decide when the appropriate age is, the USCCB leaves that up to the diocese. However, it does NOT say that you cannot go to another diocese with a different age and have your sacraments done there.
Therefore, so long as a person has met the minimum requirements - which in this case is that they be at least 7 years old, have been baptized, and be in the state of grace - they should be allowed to receive such a sacrament.
Therefore, even if we follow a standard of tradition, there is still room for interpretation, as 7 was the earliest that a child could be considered for confirmation.The Proper Age For Confirmation
Here it is to be observed, that, after Baptism, the Sacrament of Confirmation may indeed
be administered to all; but that, until children shall have attained the use of reason, its
administration is inexpedient. If it does not seem well to defer (Confirmation) to the age
of twelve, it is most proper to postpone this Sacrament at least to that of seven years.
Confirmation has not been instituted as necessary to salvation, but that by virtue thereof
we may be found very well armed and prepared when called upon to fight for the faith of
Christ; and for this conflict no one assuredly will consider children who as yet lack the
use of reason to be qualified.
It is true that in your diocese the bishop has set a higher standard for the age of confirmation, and you noted rightly at canon 891 allows him to do so, but the bishop must have set the age to 15 for good reason. It may have nothing to do with you or your friends, who having been raised in strong Catholic families have abounded a wealth of graces, but is directed to those who have not had such an upbringing and are steeped in a world of modernism or those whom he feels in the present day lack the capacities of reason which were present in past generations.
Nevertheless, I do not disagree with your contention that when a person is touched by the Holy Spirit that endless graces are upon them and that through proper upbringing they could be ready for confirmation at a young age. However, I am would weary of disobeying my local ordinary without having tried to rectify my situation, especially if I were a soul who was ready to be confirmed early on, but I should stop here as I don’t reside in the diocese and am not familiar with the problems which exist or what actions have been done in the past to resolve this dilemma.
Pax tecum.
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beebo
Guest
hey: “However, anyone who receives such a sacrament has to pay at least a small amount, due to cost of required materials (workbooks for classes, candles and robes for the sacraments themselves), the retreat to get them ready for receiving such a sacrament, and paperwork (and yes, there is paperwork that has to be done on each person who makes a sacrament. A notice has to go to the church in which the person was baptized, to confirm that all the previous sacraments had been made, and then the paperwork of the current sacrament made has to be put in the archives of the diocese in which it was made).”
This is not necessarily true, as I am in RCIA now, and have been told repeatedly that I do not have to pay anything. They have told me they will provide anything I do not have but need, and if I want to buy my own things like Robes, that is up to me. And they have not mentioned a Retreat at all, just a period of RCIA before I am Baptised and Confirmed. I am under the impression that selling Blessed things, Blessings, Sacraments, and Indulgences is what made old Martin Luther so mad in the first place, amongst other things of course.
This is not necessarily true, as I am in RCIA now, and have been told repeatedly that I do not have to pay anything. They have told me they will provide anything I do not have but need, and if I want to buy my own things like Robes, that is up to me. And they have not mentioned a Retreat at all, just a period of RCIA before I am Baptised and Confirmed. I am under the impression that selling Blessed things, Blessings, Sacraments, and Indulgences is what made old Martin Luther so mad in the first place, amongst other things of course.
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Stylites
Guest
No longer through Raymundo Figueroa, it appears, unless they bring along their ‘bullhorns and insults’ for the local bishop, eh?Therefore, so long as a person has met the minimum requirements - which in this case is that they be at least 7 years old, have been baptized, and be in the state of grace - they should be allowed to receive such a sacrament.
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