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MrZoom
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Years ago, in a homily, I heard one priest suggest that Purgatory is where we go so that our eyes can adjust to the light of God. I’ve always liked that imagery.
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Techno2000
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An Unpublished Manuscript on PurgatoryHello all from New Zealand
I am a recent convert from Protestantism (Presbyterian & Baptist/Evangelical) and now fully embrace the Catholic Faith after a deep and difficult journey and will be confirmed in the near future.
While I accept all the Church’s teaching (otherwise I would not be Catholic) including purgatory - just happened to be up to 2 Maccabees 12 this morning in my daily reading of the seven wrongly removed books from the Canon - I watched this video last night:
Excerpt :
I can tell you about the different degrees of Purgatory because I have passed through them. In the great Purgatory there are several stages. In the lowest and most painful, like a temporary hell, are the sinners who have committed terrible crimes during life and whose death surprised them in that state. It was almost a miracle that they were saved, and often by the prayers of holy parents or other pious persons. Sometimes they did not even have time to confess their sins and the world thought them lost, but God, whose mercy is infinite, gave them at the moment of death the contrition necessary for their salvation on account of one or more good actions which they performed during life. For such souls, Purgatory is terrible. It is a real hell with this difference, that in hell they curse God, whereas we bless Him and thank Him for having saved us.
November 2, 1890 — A Remembrance. This is the last Benediction of the month of the Rosary.
I am going to try to make you understand, as far as you can upon earth, what Heaven is like. There are ever new feasts which succeed each other without interruption. There is happiness, always new and such, it would seem, as has never been enjoyed. It is a torrent of joy which flows unceasingly over the elect. Heaven is above all and beyond all — GOD: God loved, God relished, God delighted in; in one word, it is to be satisfied with God without ever being satisfied!
The more a soul loves God on earth, the higher she advances in perfection, the more she will love and understand God in Heaven.
Jesus is the true joy upon earth and the eternal felicity of Heaven.
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philipl
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I enjoyed the video and found nothing wrong with it. Reading most of the comments seems that most people have no idea about time spent in purgatory, why someone might or might not be in purgatory, willing to offer their opinion on it and their opinion on Voris. Here are the three possible outcomes. You go to hell, you go to heaven, or you go to purgatory.
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BoomBoomMancini
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Honestly, I think this is an area where we can get a bit too technical. I highly doubt time in purgatory is calculated like a sentence in civil court. “Hm…let’s see…you missed Mass without good reason on March 17, 1995…that’s two months. Oh, I see you looked at a pornographic magazine in 1998…that’s six months right there…Hm…and what’s this? You used birth control? Two years a pop, buddy. I’ll give you a day off for each novena you said, so let me just run the numbers here and I’ll give you your exact stay length.”
I think the answer is more far more likely to be “However long is just and necessary.” The purpose of purgatory is to prepare you for heaven. To burn off those last vestiges of sin. If that takes ten seconds, great. If that takes a thousand years, great. But it’s probably going to vary widely for each individual soul.
I think the answer is more far more likely to be “However long is just and necessary.” The purpose of purgatory is to prepare you for heaven. To burn off those last vestiges of sin. If that takes ten seconds, great. If that takes a thousand years, great. But it’s probably going to vary widely for each individual soul.
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Gorgias
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Fair enough. Still, it doesn’t do much to build confidence to have an anonymous author expounding on theology.
Moreover, as a vision granted to a person, this falls under the category of private revelation. It may be of value to the visionary. It might be of value to a person who hears about it or reads about it. But, it never rises to the level of Church teaching (aka “public revelation”). So, if someone wants to know what the Church teaches… then they should read what the Church teaches, not what some other folks (anonymous or not) claims they received in a vision.
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1Lord1Faith
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Speak for yourself. I find that reading Sr. Lucia, St. Faustina, The Little Flower and more to indeed expound on theology.
This is too much of a simplification. The book of Revelation is a private revelation. Private revelations do contribute to Church teaching. There is no way to draw a line between how one person’s private revelation may contribute to a development of doctrine, so on and so forth. Other things contribute to doctrinal developments as well, such as observations of the world around us. Usury is no longer considered a sin, the Church no longer teaches geocentrism, etc…Moreover, as a vision granted to a person, this falls under the category of private revelation. It may be of value to the visionary. It might be of value to a person who hears about it or reads about it. But, it never rises to the level of Church teaching (aka “public revelation”). So, if someone wants to know what the Church teaches… then they should read what the Church teaches, not what some other folks (anonymous or not) claims they received in a vision.
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Gorgias
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LOL! Wait, wait… you’re proving my point!Gorgias:
Speak for yourself. I find that reading Sr. Lucia, St. Faustina, The Little Flower and more to indeed expound on theology.
You cited people who are not only not anonymous, but also are canonized saints of the Church – including a Doctor of the Church!
Au contraire.
The Book of Revelation is a book of the Bible. That means that it’s part of the Deposit of the Faith – in other words, it’s public revelation.
No… I’m sorry, but you’ve got it precisely backward. We evaluate the potential validity of private revelation on how well it conforms to public revelation, not the other way around! If private revelation states something that is not part of the Deposit of the Faith, it cannot subsequently enter into the Deposit of the Faith.
(Even in cases such as, for instance, the Immaculate Conception, the Church holds that the truth of that teaching precedes any apparitions making that claim.)
Neither usury nor geocentrism were ever doctrinal matters.
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1Lord1Faith
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Laugh all you want. But my point is regarding private revelation, not whether or not the receiver remains anonymous. I understand that some converts have a hard time with private revelation. So I would like for my posts to err on the side of finding legitimate private revelations efficacious to the soul.LOL! Wait, wait… you’re proving my point!
You cited people who are not only not anonymous, but also are canonized saints of the Church – including a Doctor of the Church!
It was a private revelation that became public revelation.
Again, too simplistic, but basically true. See the book of Revelation.
Dogma, declared Ex Cathedra. Not doctrine.
That’s debatable, especially usury.
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Gorgias
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No. You’re misusing the terms.Gorgias:
It was a private revelation that became public revelation.
Yes, it was something that was revealed to John personally. However, that doesn’t make it “private revelation.” This tract at CA might help you understand the terms a bit better.
In the context of this conversation, in which we’re distinguishing between “public” and “private” revelation, it’s the same difference: both dogma and doctrine proceed from public revelation, and neither proceed from private revelation.
whatever. have a nice day.
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1Lord1Faith
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Fine, I concede to the Church’s definition. It doesn’t take anything away from my point. The book of Revelation was the result of a vision of John. Whether or not such visions are made into “public revelation” or not is simply a line that was drawn in the sand by the Church. One side public, one side private. I’m not here to discuss talking points, rules, definitions or clunky theological ideals.
There is absolutely no way to know what private revelations have, or have not, helped lead to the formation of doctrine or subsequent doctrinal developments.
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Gorgias
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sigh. Private revelation, by its very nature, cannot drive doctrine; it can only reflect it.Have a wonderful day.
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1Lord1Faith
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I am aware, thanks for that. Have fun behind your wall.
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Maxirad
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I have the hardcover edition of Michael Voris’s 2015 book Militant: Resurrecting Authentic Catholicism. I would like a faithful, orthodox Catholic to rebut stuff that Mr. Voris says in that book.
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JimG
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That seems to me to be a good analogy. I’ve always thought of purgatory not as a place of punishment, but a place of purification, an antechamber to heaven. Approaching the splendor of God hurts our eyes, throws light on our faults, and the recognition and repentance of the hurt our actions have caused others is itself a painful purification. There are no “years” in purgatory.
I’ve never seen a Voris video, and can’t see it here because my laptop has no sound.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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I don’t think anyone has suggested that he is not theologically correct. However, good theology is given with grace…and Voris has none of that. His manner is what is abhorrent and therefore it affects his message severely.
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Techno2000
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If you say the Rosary you are doing something that came from Private revelation.1Lord1Faith:
Have a wonderful day.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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Which is why one can live a wholly rich faith life and never say so much as a decat of the rosary.
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Techno2000
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I don’t know why there is so much resistance to private revelation, I find them fascinating and enlightening .Techno2000:
Which is why one can live a wholly rich faith life and never say so much as a decat of the rosary.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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That is great. Truly wonderful. However, many Catholics are often made to feel terrible over the lack of loving such devotions, which is equally as sad. With the recent 100 year anniversary of Fatima, there was plenty of shaming for not loving private revelation going on.
Private revelation is very nice and it can allow Catholics to see a truth of doctrine they want to explore more fully. But we still need to be extremely careful not to push private revelation on those who do not want it. Believing private revelation or using the tools created from it does NOT make one a better Catholic in the eyes of the church, but only can enhance one’s relationship with God.
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Techno2000
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Techno2000:
That is great. Truly wonderful. However, many Catholics are often made to feel terrible over the lack of loving such devotions, which is equally as sad. With the recent 100 year anniversary of Fatima, there was plenty of shaming for not loving private revelation going on.
Private revelation is very nice and it can allow Catholics to see a truth of doctrine they want to explore more fully. But we still need to be extremely careful not to push private revelation on those who do not want it. Believing private revelation or using the tools created from it does NOT make one a better Catholic in the eyes of the church, but only can enhance one’s relationship with God.
The church itself is “pushing” private revelation.
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