Michael Voris & 'Church Militant' on Purgatory

[TMC]

that was really just about the Church wanting a non-affiliated entity to stop representing itself as if it were the Church. Right?

That is not my understanding. He wasn’t just asked to change the name of his program; he was also banned from speaking in the diocese. My understanding is that he “teaches” contrary to the Church’s teaching on some topics.

Some years ago supporters of his and even some of his employees would come to CAF to support him and advertise his programs. From what I remember, many of the issues related to his views on other religions, including Judaism. I’m sure there were other issues, but they are not leaping to mind.

 

[Crusader13]

Crusader13:

As for Authority, you summed up what I assumed some people were talking about. If Voris is to be considered wrong on his views about the Church’s teachings because he doesn’t have Apostolic Authority, then that same standard would apply to nearly every apologist here at Catholic Answers. Most of the well known catholic apologists, Karl Keating, Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Patrick Madrid, Scott Hahn, Trent Horn and many others, don’t have “authority”, in the sense you described it, to speak authoritatively on church teachings.

What does it mean to speak authoritatively? In the past wasn’t there a lot of authoritative teaching on Limbo ?

Well that was part of my question and how the criticism against Voris for not having said “authority” somehow negated the legitimacy of his arguments.

The teachings on Limbo weren’t doctrinally defined, from my understanding. It was a long held belief that was shared, probably by the majority of the Church during those times, as to what happened to unbaptized babies who died. However, I don’t believe it satisfactorily answered those questions and therefore it was never formally defined.

Others may have greater insight into the history of Limbo though.

 

[Techno2000]

I am somewhat of a mystic and philosopher and love to read other mystics (as long as they are not heretics obviously.)

Bookworm77, Because you are a new Catholic let me bring you up to speed, two of the most popular devotions of Catholics are…

The Rosary

The Most Holy Rosary ~ The 15 Promises

Chaplet of The Divine Mercy

How to Recite the Chaplet of The Divine Mercy | The Divine Mercy

Faustina Kowalska - Wikipedia

http://www.faustina-message.com/diary-saint-sister-faustina.htm

 

[Bookworm77]

Hi.

Bookworm77, Because you are a new Catholic let me bring you up to speed, two of the most popular devotions of Catholics are…

The Rosary

http://www.themostholyrosary.com/15promises.htm

Chaplet of The Divine Mercy

How to Recite the Chaplet of The Divine Mercy | The Divine Mercy

Thank you.
I am learning about and starting to pray the Rosary and also have a little booklet from St Faustyna on Heaven, Hell and Purgatory.
Great stuff, thanks for your help and God bless.

 

[Bookworm77]

Just found this also:

 

[Techno2000]

Hi.

Bookworm77, Because you are a new Catholic let me bring you up to speed, two of the most popular devotions of Catholics are…

The Rosary

The Most Holy Rosary ~ The 15 Promises

Chaplet of The Divine Mercy

How to Recite the Chaplet of The Divine Mercy | The Divine Mercy

Thank you.
I am learning about and starting to pray the Rosary and also have a little booklet from St Faustyna on Heaven, Hell and Purgatory.
Great stuff, thanks for your help and God bless.

Great, you can say Chaplet of The Divine Mercy on the Rosary, I just got finished doing that a little while ago.

 

[pnewton]

Well that was part of my question and how the criticism against Voris for not having said “authority” somehow negated the legitimacy of his arguments.

To specify, it only negates that relies on his opinions and reasoning. When he speaks in concert with the Church, just like why he uses logic, that is not negated, because authority is not needed. Take this situation about how long Purgatory lasts. Since this is not defined, he cannot speak on it with authority, because there is no position of the Church for him to be in concert with. There is no amount of logic that can get from Church teaching to any real answer for this. If there were, it would have been defined centuries ago before YouTube.

 

[Crusader13]

I agree with your comments about how one cannot speak authoritatively when offering opinions which suggest that certain teachings are doctrine when in fact they haven’t been declared such.

However, as I mentioned earlier, Michael Voris didn’t claim that time spent in purgatory could be in the millions of years range. He was making a financial analogy which equated sin with money and therefore a person could be looking at millions of dollars of debt from living a very sinful life. He contrasted this with Jesus’s comments in Matthew about not being released from prison until the last penny had been repaid. However he didn’t say a day in purgatory repays $1 of debt (sin) you owe. He’s never made any claims as to how long a person will spend in purgatory. In fact there wasn’t anything in that video clip which seemed to contradict any Church teachings. They may have used different language or expressions that other apologist wouldn’t, but that isn’t the same as being contradictory.

Secondly, I don’t think I’ve ever heard Michael Voris describe himself as speaking with authority derived from the Holy See itself. His talks are aimed at presenting authentic Catholic teachings. I’ve read some comments that suggests he is at odds with official Church teachings because he was no longer allowed to speak in his own diocese. Yet, when I read the stories about what sparked this ban being placed on him, there wasn’t anything that suggested he was teaching incorrect Catholic theology. Most of the controversy came as a result of his being viewed as uncharitable to non-Catholic religions. Michael Voris is nothing, if not passionate about our Church’s being the One True Faith. He consistently uses this term when talking about the Catholic Church and he never hesitates to refer to protestant churches as being man made and not containing the fullness of truth.

I completely agree with him on those points and we shouldn’t compromise what we know to be true, simply to foster unity and ecumenism.

 

[pnewton]

I completely agree with him on those points and we shouldn’t compromise what we know to be true, simply to foster unity and ecumenism.

You do not have to compromise to soften you speech and speak with gentleness and mercy. So he can appeal to those that he appeals to. Give me Cardinal Dolan any day, or Fr. Baron. Those are more of my type of speakers.

 

[Gorgias]

He contrasted this with Jesus’s comments in Matthew about not being released from prison until the last penny had been repaid.

You’re talking about yesterday’s reading? I was thinking about the meaning of this exact passage over the weekend.

In the Sacra Pagina book on Matthew, the author makes the point that selling the man and his family wasn’t about repayment, it was about punishment. (After all, the debt was 10K talents!)

If selling a whole family was insufficient to repay the debt, then, it therefore follows that throwing the man into prison was likewise insufficient. In other words, the implication was that it would be impossible to “pay to the last penny.”

In other words, this isn’t a statement about Purgatory (in which “payment” for temporal punishment is “paid”), but rather, about Hell (in which one is punished eternally).

So… an idea (like Voris’), in which we apply this passage to Purgatory, seems to be off base. (Yes, I realize he’s not the only one who prooftexts that line to make it seem like it’s talking about Purgatory, but the fact remains…)

 

[Techno2000]

Crusader13:

Well that was part of my question and how the criticism against Voris for not having said “authority” somehow negated the legitimacy of his arguments.

To specify, it only negates that relies on his opinions and reasoning. When he speaks in concert with the Church, just like why he uses logic, that is not negated, because authority is not needed. Take this situation about how long Purgatory lasts. Since this is not defined, he cannot speak on it with authority, because there is no position of the Church for him to be in concert with. There is no amount of logic that can get from Church teaching to any real answer for this. If there were, it would have been defined centuries ago before YouTube.

From what I read from private revelations, regular people go to Purgatory 30 to 40 year…Priest and Nuns go for centuries.

 

[Crusader13]

No, I think Michael Voris was referencing Matthew 5: 25-26. 25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Yesterday’s verses were from chapter 18 I think. I’ve heard this passage in Matthew 5 used several times by many different apologists as a possible allusion to Purgatory. The language seems to imply that even though you would be sent to prison, you’d eventually be released only after your debt is paid. However, like you said in reference to Matthew 18, it may seem that this passage is referring to Hell and it’s application to Purgatory isn’t accurate.

 

[Crusader13]

You do not have to compromise to soften you speech and speak with gentleness and mercy. So he can appeal to those that he appeals to. Give me Cardinal Dolan any day, or Fr. Baron. Those are more of my type of speakers.

I don’t take issue with that. I know sharing our faith should be done with gentleness and reverence and a softer approach is sometimes needed depending on the situation. Unfortunately, this softer approach seems to be the one that is most often used and in some cases the only one being pushed amongst the clergy and laity. It’s difficult, if not impossible to convince a non-Catholic that the Church is actually right, without telling the other person they are in fact wrong. Using such absolute and strong language doesn’t mean we are being uncharitable or mean spirited. Either the Catholic Church is the One True Faith or it isn’t, it can’t be both and it does no good to try and be welcoming to the person without addressing their misconceptions.

 

[Crusader13]

From what I read from private revelations, regular people go to Purgatory 30 to 40 year…Priest and Nuns go for centuries.

I’ve heard of similar theories from private revelations of Saints and others throughout history. I honestly don’t know how long a person could spend in Purgatory. The Church has never formally declared such and it could be that the amount of time spent is not meant for us to know and time as we know it, may not have the same effect or the same application as it does after we leave this world. Who knows for sure, certainly not I!

 

[on_the_hill]

What is the meaning of time when you’re experiencing eternity? Whatever purgatory is, it’s certainly not bounded by any parameters that we’re familiar with.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000:

From what I read from private revelations, regular people go to Purgatory 30 to 40 year…Priest and Nuns go for centuries.

I’ve heard of similar theories from private revelations of Saints and others throughout history. I honestly don’t know how long a person could spend in Purgatory. The Church has never formally declared such and it could be that the amount of time spent is not meant for us to know and time as we know it, may not have the same effect or the same application as it does after we leave this world. Who knows for sure, certainly not I!

True, but doesn’t the Church base an indulgence on a certain amount of days you were supposed to spend in Purgatory ?

 

[Techno2000]

What is the meaning of time when you’re experiencing eternity? Whatever purgatory is, it’s certainly not bounded by any parameters that we’re familiar with.

The Catholic Church grants indulgences by the days, which are very familiar and easy to understand.

 

[Crusader13]

True, but doesn’t the Church base an indulgence on a certain amount of days you were supposed to spend in Purgatory ?

Yes, especially when you read documents and prayers from the middle ages up to the late 60’s early 70’s. From the things I’ve read, it was my impression that most people assumed that you could easily spend 30-40 years in purgatory, maybe even an entire lifetime. As a result indulgences were usually described as being applicable in terms of days and years. The Church I believe was acting well within the deposit of Faith she has received and teachings on Purgatory and Indulgences were being explained and carried out based upon the knowledge and understanding they possessed at the time.

I think overtime that abuses and misunderstanding of Indulgences and how they can be applied caused the Church to simplify it’s application of them. Which could be why now days you usually only hear of Partial and Plenary Indulgences without mention of exact days and years anymore.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000:

True, but doesn’t the Church base an indulgence on a certain amount of days you were supposed to spend in Purgatory ?

Yes, especially when you read documents and prayers from the middle ages up to the late 60’s early 70’s. From the things I’ve read, it was my impression that most people assumed that you could easily spend 30-40 years in purgatory, maybe even an entire lifetime. As a result indulgences were usually described as being applicable in terms of days and years. The Church I believe was acting well within the deposit of Faith she has received and teachings on Purgatory and Indulgences were being explained and carried out based upon the knowledge and understanding they possessed at the time.

I think overtime that abuses and misunderstanding of Indulgences and how they can be applied caused the Church to simplify it’s application of them. Which could be why now days you usually only hear of Partial and Plenary Indulgences without mention of exact days and years anymore.

Yes, but there are many Indulgences that give the exact number of days and years that one can obtained, and those are still valid.

 

[Glennon_P]

The former practice of attaching a certain number of days to an indulgence did not mean the Church would give you that number of days “off” of your time in Purgatory. The number of days referred to the graces you would merit if you performed penance for a given number of days.

For example, an indulgence of 300 days meant that the punishment due to your sin would be lessened by the graces you would have received for performing penance for 300 days.

It was a common misconception that a “300 days’ indulgence” meant that you would get out of Purgatory 300 days earlier. To avoid that misconception, the Church stopped attaching a specific number of days to indulgences and now refers to them as partial or plenary.