Michael Voris, John-Henry Westen, Taylor Marshall and Patrick Coffin

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Well I’ve certainly heard him say some very critical things about Vatican II and Pope Francis. He’s also interviewed Michael Voris a couple of times and agreed with him on most issues. If he isn’t as rad-trad or anti-pope as Voris and Marshall, he certainly seems to be heading in that direction.
A lot of professional Catholics are “red-pilled” on Pope Francis (or at least his papacy if not not him as a person). Patrick Coffin is now primarily a professional Culture Warrior and no longer a professional evangelist & apologist.

Professional evangelists and apologists are not going to publicly show their red-pilledness because it detracts from their profession.

But publicly criticizing the Catholic hierarchy and politicians is part of what a professional Culture Warrior is going to do.
 
As members of the laity, we gravitate to men like James Martin, Bp, Barron, Cdl Sarah, Bp. Schneider, Fr. Z, Father Mike, etc etc. And it all depends on which members of the clergy we feel best support our own views.
No, I “gravitate” towards them because I like to hear different perspectives. Every one of them has said some things I like and some things I disagree with or think could have been handled better or aren’t as big of a deal as the speaker is making it. I’ve regularly read or listened to all of those guys. The fact that they are experienced clergy to me makes them better, smarter, and more nuanced speakers than the lay guys. After hearing each of them speak for a while, I get to the point where I pretty much know what they will have to say, so I don’t have to pay that much attention any more.

I’m not looking for a priest who confirms all my own views of things. I don’t need confirmation, I’m secure in what I think without that, or if I’m not then I would pray about it and seek enlightenment from God, or perhaps by reading Scripture and the writings of saints…not Fr. so-and-so or Lay Apologist so-and-so.
 
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If he was an Episcopal priest, he could have gone from that to being a Catholic priest and not had to restart a career. The Church would have been glad to have him. He chose a different path, so I’m not going to feel the least bit sorry for him.
A lot (if not most) of Episcopal priest converts to the Catholic Church chose NOT to become Catholic priests (esp before the Ordinariate).

One of main logistical reasons is because the Episcopal church pays their priests a TON more money than Catholic priests make. The richer the Episcopal parish, the more their priests make.

Taylor was already married with kids when he converted. He discerned becoming a Catholic priest, but determined that (partly due to the greater time requirement a Catholic Priest has vs. Episcopal priest) he was called to be a lay man & to focus on being a father & husband.

So the Bishop who helped convert him helped him get a job with the Catholic Information Center in DC.

Remember, the vast majority of married Catholic priests who used to be Episcopal priests are strongly in favor of the celibate priesthood.
 
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. . . .

Like I said: No sympathy here. The Church would not have let his family starve. (And I’m a firm believer that a wife needs to also take some responsibility to bring money into the house, although some people don’t agree with me, including some wives in my own family who by choice haven’t ever held a job above minimum wage.) I always got the impression he’s more interested in promoting himself than in promoting the Lord.
 
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I make a distinction between Traditional Catholics and Traditionalists.

EWTN, FSSP and Catholic Answers are Traditional. They are in union with the Church, seek to affirm Tradition. Their Ecclesiology theology and practice is orthodox.

Traditionalist Groups and ministries in disunion with their local ordinary and/or the pope are not fully orthodox. This includes LSN, 1p5, CM, Rorate, and others.
 
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Yeah, well if his motivation is to make a lot of money to support a family, then that pretty much shows you what he’s truly after in planning his activities.

Like I said: No sympathy here. The Church would not have let his family starve. (And I’m a firm believer that a wife needs to also take some responsibility to bring money into the house, although some people don’t agree with me, including some wives in my own family who by choice haven’t ever held a job above minimum wage.) I always got the impression he’s more interested in promoting himself than in promoting the Lord.
Bear - I greatly respect you & your posts. However, I don’t think this one is very fair. You can disagree with him, but I believe you are judging his motivations at his conversion a bit unjustly.

He was very different 10+ years ago, when he entered the Church. He was even very different just 3 years ago too, when he was still a welcomed Fellow at the St. Paul Center of Theology.

From what I understand, he always wanted to be a Philosophy professor (even when a Episcopal priest). Philosophy professors don’t make a lot of money.

His ability to make a lot of money is relatively new - thanks to his New Saint Thomas Institute & YouTube.

10+ years ago, he would have had ZERO idea that he could make money as a Catholic online.
 
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he could have gone from that to being a Catholic priest and not had to restart a career
I’m not sure that it was a real possibility. Two issues were that (1) he had only been an Episcopal priest for a little over a year before being received into the Catholic Church; (2) his formation as an Episcopal priest was highly abbreviated (a one year program) before his first curacy.

Anglican priests ordained in the Catholic Church under the pre-Ordinariate pastoral provisions were generally older with a few decades experience of providing pastoral care (whether as vicars or rectors). Mr Marshall would have likely been obliged to undergo a complete priest formation, and I’m not sure if any provisions were made for any scenario involving married seminarians with children.
 
As for VII, I’ve heard Coffin take issue with how the documents of VII have been misapplied / largely ignored, but never with the counsel itself. Do you have an example?
Not off the top of my head. I’d have to trawl through hours of interviews he has done (as he makes most of his statement in videos rather than in print) and I don’t feel like doing that right now.
I always got the impression he’s more interested in promoting himself than in promoting the Lord.
I feel the same way. I can’t watch his videos. As well some of the content, I also find his ‘please like and share this video’ request every two minutes rather annoying. Why do some people keep telling their audience to like their video, in their video, every few minutes? We know there’s a like button. We’ll press that button and share it if decide it’s an interesting enough video.

I dread to think how much Trump mentioning him in a tweet must have inflated his ego too. It’s ironically because Trump probably has no idea who he is. I’m sure his tweet gave Marshal a lot more followers and subscribers though.
 
Yeah, well if his motivation is to make a lot of money to support a family, then that pretty much shows you what he’s truly after in planning his activities.

Like I said: No sympathy here. The Church would not have let his family starve. (And I’m a firm believer that a wife needs to also take some responsibility to bring money into the house, although some people don’t agree with me, including some wives in my own family who by choice haven’t ever held a job above minimum wage.) I always got the impression he’s more interested in promoting himself than in promoting the Lord.
That’s not very fair - just because he didn’t want to become a priest doesn’t mean that money was his sole motivation. It’s not wrong to want to provide a comfortable living for his wife and children, even if it is more than what the Church could have provided. Not to mention the limited time he would have to see and be with his family - a problem that married Catholic priests tend to have, especially on weekends. Not everyone wants to deal with that problem, and it’s not wrong of him to pass on becoming a priest and dealing with these problems.
 
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And I’m a firm believer that a wife needs to also take some responsibility to bring money into the house, although some people don’t agree with me, including some wives in my own family who by choice haven’t ever held a job above minimum wage.
BTW - in regards to his wife working… Taylor & his wife decided a long time ago that they wanted to have a lot of kids. They currently have 8 children. When you have a lot of kids, it’s very difficult for both parents to work (eps outside the home). My parents had 5 kids, and my mother tried working retail for short time. But it proved to be too difficult. My parents hovered around the poverty line for many years when I was young. However, they felt it was better for my mom to stay home than for her to work & send the 5 of us to daycare. We were all involved in many activities as kids, many of which would not have been possible if my mom wasn’t home to drive us.

My wife and I only have 2 kids, yet my Jewish wife choose to quit her teaching job to stay home with my first child. (I actually tried to convince her to keep working.) She’s hasn’t had a full time job in 9+ years, however, she did pick up a part time job at my 2nd child’s pre-school.

When mothers (or fathers) choose to stay home, MOST of them are choosing to spend time with their kids over money and material things. I would personally be in far less financial debt, have a bigger house, etc if my wife never quit her job. Losing approx $60,000 a year is a huge financial hit.

However, my wife and I both had a stay at home mother, and we both knew the advantages that brings kids.

While I feel no ill-will towards mothers who chose to work, I do find it interesting how many working women bash stay at home mothers. (I’m not saying that you are bashing them - but many do).

Back to Taylor’s wife: again, they have 8 children. I honestly can’t see how parents of eight kids can be successful parents if at least one of them isn’t a full time, stay at home parent.
 
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That’s not very fair - just because he didn’t want to become a priest doesn’t mean that money was his sole motivation. It’s not wrong to want to provide a comfortable living for his wife and children, even if it is more than what the Church could have provided.
I don’t think it’s unfair. She said that she won’t feel sorry for him ‘giving up his priesthood’ because he could have become a Catholic priest. Somebody else actually pointed out that Catholic priests perhaps don’t get as much money as Episcopal priests. She rightly pointed out that he could have made money as a Catholic priest and his wife could also have found some work, even if not full time.

Having said that I actually think the fact that money may have been such a factor in his decision making, is a good argument against allowing priests to marry. It’s almost impossible not to think about how much money you make when you have a family to support and wanting more of it. Priest should not be thinking like that. For this reason, even though I am no fan of the guy even as a lay commentator, I’m glad he decided not to be a Catholic priest.
My wife and I only have 2 kids, yet my Jewish wife choose to quit her teaching job to stay home with my first child.
Any particular reason you chose to call her your Jewish wife? Is that an important element of what you wrote?
 
Any particular reason you chose to call her your Jewish wife? Is that an important element of what you wrote?
Because a lot of people think stay at home mothers (esp here) are primarily a “traditional Catholic thing” or an “evangelical Protestant thing.”

My wife is not a Christian & I did not talk her into being a stay at home mom. I wasn’t practicing my faith at the time and actually tried to convince her to keep working because I was concerned about money.

So I emphasized the fact that she’s Jewish so someone reading my post wouldn’t dismiss my experience as simply “well, he’s a conservative & traditional Catholic, so of course his wife stays home.”
 
The whole thing smacks of severe recency bias. I remember plenty of topics about the issues with the LCWR and the papacy.
 
What do these four men have in common? They are all traditionalist and all very critical of many aspects of the Catholic Church, in particular the clergy and even the Pope.

What else do those men have in common? They are converts or reverts to the Catholic faith.
I do not normally think of myself as a “convert”, in that I didn’t convert “from” anything, and in fact had probably never been to church more than a couple dozen times in my first 15 years of life. My family was vaguely Christian-oriented (not baptized) and religion or Bible reading was not practiced in my home, “who Jesus was” was never considered, and common “big issue” moral principles were just assumed — don’t steal, don’t harm people, be good to people, be honest, be fair, be polite, and no sex until marriage. Nothing terribly profound, again, more atmospheric than anything else.

Then I began to study Catholicism. I had never had any exposure to Catholicism, other than a couple of casual friends, and my cousin had married a fairly serious Catholic, converted, and I admired their sensible, erudite, urbane lifestyle. But I began to dig into it, on a whim I started the Knights of Columbus correspondence course, and things began to “click” — “this is the truth, this explains it all, this is what is wrong, this is what is missing in all the other churches”. Becoming persuaded of it, I sought baptism and was baptized after a fairly short instruction period (there was no RCIA then).

Having made this leap, I then began to notice within the Church some inconsistencies — “why does the Church teach against birth control, but very few people accept or follow it?”, “why did the Church have this beautiful, holy, majestic, glorious Latin Mass, and then poof!, all of a sudden, it vanished and they don’t even want you to talk about it?”, “why did the old catechisms teach various things so clearly, but now, nothing is absolute, these sins aren’t preached against, it’s all about ‘conscience’?”. And so on.

I think one thing that has helped me — and I’m not suggesting that “only converts are good Catholics” — is that I didn’t have any concept of “Catholicism as taught to me from babyhood by people I trust”. Other than the casual example of some Catholics whom I admired, I had no preconceptions, no concept of “these are my people, this is my heritage, I’ve always been taught this, and there couldn’t possibly be anything deficient in the actual practice of the people, least of all in those entrusted to teach me”. It’s hard to describe, but I hope the reader knows what I’m getting at. When I once told a “cradle Catholic” friend that one of our priests had taught error (saying that Paul VI was wrong in Humanae vitae), she was deeply hurt and simply couldn’t absorb the idea of a priest being “in error” — “you mean he made a mistake, he misunderstood something, right?”.

Moral of the story, I think sometimes a convert can see things more clearly in the Church than a “cradle Catholic” can. And sometimes “bringing things up” is not well-received. We don’t always like what we see in the mirror.
 
I didn’t set this topic up in order to criticise the four men I mentioned.
Yet you did just that and continued to pile on more assumptions.
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Tis_Bearself:
I always got the impression he’s more interested in promoting himself than in promoting the Lord.
I feel the same way. I can’t watch his videos. As well some of the content, I also find his ‘please like and share this video’ request every two minutes rather annoying. Why do some people keep telling their audience to like their video, in their video, every few minutes? We know there’s a like button. We’ll press that button and share it if decide it’s an interesting enough video.

I dread to think how much Trump mentioning him in a tweet must have inflated his ego too. It’s ironically because Trump probably has no idea who he is. I’m sure his tweet gave Marshal a lot more followers and subscribers though.
It’s hard to understand what exactly your point was, if not to criticize. I’m not saying you can’t post whatever topic you choose, but this appears to be just another Trad bashing thread.

Rather then attacking his time as a Catholic, which is absurd anyway, it’s not like there is a probationary period before a convert can speak intelligently about problems in the Church; but instead let’s critique what he’s saying and decide if it’s in error.

And I’m not exactly sure how it works on the tech side, but from what I’ve learned about YouTube, the number of likes a video receives, gives it a greater chance of being “pushed” and suggested when browsing similar content.
 
And I’m not exactly sure how it works on the tech side, but from what I’ve learned about YouTube, the number of likes a video receives, gives it a greater chance of being “pushed” and suggested when browsing similar content.
Yes, I think it works something like that.

The reason why people say “give it a like” is because the more likes the video has, then YouTube will “recommend” it to people who watch similar videos.

The reason they say “subscribe & click the bell” is because that’s the easiest way to watch more videos from the YouTuber as they put out more contact.

As far as money is concerned: Taylor Marshall doesn’t make a dime from YouTube. In order to make money from Youtube, you must show ads. Taylor doesn’t do that.

He uses patreon to make money from his YouTube videos, but he isn’t paid by YouTube. All of his YouTube videos are 100% free.
 
Yes I critiqued Taylor Marshall after another poster said they weren’t keen on him. I also said that I quite liked some of the work Michael Voris does for Church Militant. Strange that you didn’t pick up on that given how I wrote it in response to you.
 
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