Microphone at TLM?

[JMJ_coder]

Okay, but why can’t we actively participate in Latin? I hear people around me being “actively participating” during the EF with no problems.

It CAN be done, just not likely (especially in today’s society). It also wasn’t being done before the Second Vatican Council. If it was, then there wouldn’t have been exhortation after exhortation from the Popes going back to Pope Saint Pius X pleading for people to fully, actively, and consciously participate in the Liturgy.

I think we can all agree that “active” participation doesn’t only mean outward movement. There is active participation even in the periods of sacred silence and in the proper periods of passive listening.

 

[ProVobis]

It CAN be done, just not likely (especially in today’s society). It also wasn’t being done before the Second Vatican Council.

You’re right about that. But I doubt if it was because the people didn’t know the Latin. My public school buddies back then knew the Credo and Gloria better than I did. Many people simply thought it was a sin to make noise in Church.

I think we can all agree that “active” participation doesn’t only mean outward movement. There is active participation even in the periods of sacred silence and in the proper periods of passive listening.

I think so too.

 

[JMJ_coder]

You’re right about that. But I doubt if it was because the people didn’t know the Latin. My public school buddies back then knew the Credo and Gloria better than I did. Many people simply thought it was a sin to make noise in Church.

With the transitioning from the trivium educational system to what we have today, the Classics were no longer emphasized or even taught. Thus, I’d imagine that unless one was trained as a server, there’d be no real impetus for learning any Latin at all.

Outside of the dialogue Mass (which I think was in direct answer to the call for more active participation) that developed in the first half of this century how much (if anything) was the congregation expected to say at a Mass?

 

[JMJ_coder]

I do have my doubts about any translation

Does that include translations into Latin? Maybe we should do everything in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic?

 

[Cathryn]

The microphone my priest wears is virtually invisible. It can not be seen under his chasuble. He has a very slender flesh colored wire that goes to his ear and the flesh colored mic is so small it can not be seen from the pews. It is the same microphone he wears for the Novus Ordo. No one in the pews can see the mic from that distance. He will not wear a microphone that pins to his vestments. I am only familiar with his microphone because I am the one who puts new batteries in it every week. I would miss hearing the Latin words of the Mass if it were not for the microphone. Back in the pre-vatican days we did not have the technology we have now that allows microphones to be so small and discreet.

 

[CradleCath]

With the transitioning from the trivium educational system to what we have today, the Classics were no longer emphasized or even taught. Thus, I’d imagine that unless one was trained as a server, there’d be no real impetus for learning any Latin at all.

Outside of the dialogue Mass (which I think was in direct answer to the call for more active participation) that developed in the first half of this century how much (if anything) was the congregation expected to say at a Mass?

As one who attended the TLM. for 28 yrs. before the council…I can answer this. The congregation was expected to pray every prayer that the priest said, they were expected to meditate on these words & to make them a part of who they are. They were expected to know the movements & gestures of the priests & their purpose. Remember, my generation & my Father’s attended Catholic schools when they were actually CATHOLIC.

I was presented with my first Latin/English missal at my First Communion, I was 8 yrs. of age. These were presented to every First communicant in the parish (thanks to the Holy Name association) & we took them to religion class daily, in order to study the Mass.

Somewhere in my house, is my Aunt’s missal, given to her in 1907 at HER First Communion. I will try to find it & quote parts of the Mass from her missal. I think it will surprise many that generations before the Mass was dumbed down, we knew it from beginning to end. The old adage that claims all were “old women who prayed their rosaries” is both incorrect & insulting to those of us who were actually THERE.

 

[ProVobis]

I think it will surprise many that generations before the Mass was dumbed down, we knew it from beginning to end. The old adage that claims all were “old women who prayed their rosaries” is both incorrect & insulting to those of us who were actually THERE.

Very true.

Sorry to digress but this little piece on liturgical dancing by Cardinal Arinze places a little humor on the subject of saying rosaries in some areas:

youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s&feature=related

 

[JMJ_coder]

CradleCath:
As one who attended the TLM. for 28 yrs. before the council…I can answer this. The congregation was expected to pray every prayer that the priest said, they were expected to meditate on these words & to make them a part of who they are. They were expected to know the movements & gestures of the priests & their purpose. Remember, my generation & my Father’s attended Catholic schools when they were actually CATHOLIC.

I was presented with my first Latin/English missal at my First Communion, I was 8 yrs. of age. These were presented to every First communicant in the parish (thanks to the Holy Name association) & we took them to religion class daily, in order to study the Mass.

Somewhere in my house, is my Aunt’s missal, given to her in 1907 at HER First Communion. I will try to find it & quote parts of the Mass from her missal. I think it will surprise many that generations before the Mass was dumbed down, we knew it from beginning to end. The old adage that claims all were “old women who prayed their rosaries” is both incorrect & insulting to those of us who were actually THERE.

That may have been supposed to have been what was going on, but the reality (based on the exhortations from the Popes) was far from the mark. Even today we’re not there (but for very different reasons). Again, let’s not don the rose colored glasses.

 

[CradleCath]

It CAN be done, just not likely (especially in today’s society). It also wasn’t being done before the Second Vatican Council. If it was, then there wouldn’t have been exhortation after exhortation from the Popes going back to Pope Saint Pius X pleading for people to fully, actively, and consciously participate in the Liturgy.
I think we can all agree that “active” participation doesn’t only mean outward movement. There is active participation even in the periods of sacred silence and in the proper periods of passive listening.

I did a little research into previous uses of that expression in papal and other ecclesial documents. The first papal usage was in 1903 by Pope St. Pius X, whose motto was “Omnia Instaurare in Christo” (To restore all things in Christ). He considered himself a pope of renewal. He issued one of the first documents of his pontificate, a motu proprio called Tra Le Solicitudini, that is, “Among the Concerns.” This was a document on the renewal of sacred music. In it, the Holy Father states, “In order that the faithful may **more actively participate **in the sacred liturgy, let them be once again made to sing Gregorian Chant as a congregation.”

That’s what the term “active participation” meant when it was first used in a papal document & I agree with that. Even many years later, in the 40s, we had so many choirs who sang Gregorian Chant/Polyphany so beautifully…that many in the congregation did not join in.

In any case, the first use of actuosa participatio, i.e., active participation, referred exclusively to the restoration of the congregational singing of Gregorian Chant. In 1928, Pope Pius XI reiterated the point in his Apostolic Letter, Divini Cultus. Nineteen years after that, in the Magna Carta of liturgical reform, Mediator Dei, issued by Pius XII, is a beautiful & complete description of the Catholic Mass. It address both interior & exterior participation during the Mass, explains the difference between the priesthood of the ordained & the laity & tells us about private Masses. It should be a must read for all Catholics. The same term (active participation) was used re the singing of Gregorian Chant by the congregation.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

.** So until the Second Vatican Council, the term “active participation” referred exclusively to the singing of Gregorian Chant by the people.**

 

[ProVobis]

“Actual” - “active” connection

Actual, from the Late Latin actualis, Latin actus, past participle of agere

(1) existing and not merely potential or possible
(2) being, existing, or acting at the present moment, current
(3) based on fact

But if you look up actualis and actus, you get this translation:

actualis - active
actus - past participle of agere, to do, to drive

In this group there is also

actuose - passionately, eagerly
actuosus - full of life, active

 

[JMJ_coder]

“Actual” - “active” connection

Actual, from the Late Latin actualis, Latin actus, past participle of agere

(1) existing and not merely potential or possible
(2) being, existing, or acting at the present moment, current
(3) based on fact

But if you look up actualis and actus, you get this translation:

actualis - active
actus - past participle of agere, to do, to drive

In this group there is also

actuose - passionately, eagerly
actuosus - full of life, active

There is a difference between a translation and an etymology.

 

[mick321]

There is a difference between a translation and an etymology.

There is a difference between a microphone and a translation.

Need this thread be taken even further into left field?

 

[lutherlic]

An old saying about the Catholic Church and the U.S. Navy: "They have been designed by geniuses so they can be operated safely by idiots.”

Great tag line!