Middle East Synod and Israel

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…That said, we need to understand and sympathize and support any individuals who oppressed, like the palestinian community. Its a difficult balance (but needs balance).
I think you hit on something inadvertently. There is a difference, and I believe a significant difference, between “any individuals” who are oppressed, and “the palestinian community.” This blurring between the two is exactly the lie foisted on the world by the authors of modern terrorism. The “Palestinians,” and I deliberately put that in quotes, are oppressed by the political ideology of Arab and other Moslem governments, by being made pawns, by being denied the right to settle in Arab lands, by being forced to stay in camps and held up as the world’s oldest “displaced” community. Yasser Arafat in his day traveled freely between Arab countries and enjoyed the patronage of radical Moslem clerics everywhere, because he kept the “Palestinian” cause in the limelight. This ideology keeps little children in front of Israeli soldiers, throwing rocks, but there are adults with guns behind them. There is no- I mean zero- preaching of peace with Israel, it is all about resistance and a reverse martyrdom where suicide is glorified if you take the enemy with you. The whole ideology is abhorrent and repellent to a Christian way of thinking no matter what church or denomination, but we buy into the narrative that “why would they do it if they weren’t pushed to it?” It’s an abomination, it’s Moloch-worship. And I don’t blame the people who call themselves “Palestinians” who are brought up to believe this, but I do, and I believe we must, blame the people who are relentlessly pushing the ideology because they want Israel to be destroyed because Jewish Israel is an insult to the honor of Islam.

As a convert to Catholicism and Jewish by birth I am aware that this may seem to be my own personal axe to grind, but I sincerely hope the Church will be able to articulate that while we want peace in the Middle East, it can’t be peace that denies truth or sacrifices the Jews. Jesus is the King of the Jews. A king isn’t king of a religion (Church of England notwithstanding) but king of a people. The rabbis persist in error but the Jewish people are God’s to do with as He wills.
 
So when will this be?
14 I will bring back my exiled people Israel;
they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,"
says the LORD your God.
Amos 9:14-15

I believe the prophet Amos was active during the time of the Two kingdoms, the Kingdom of Israel in the North and the Kingdom of Judah in the south about 750 BC. How can a prophet even utter words of exile or ruins when during those time the two kingdoms are at the peak of their prosperity and are considered powers in the region?

When will this be then? During Babylonian Period? Persians? Greek or Roman dynasties?
 
Hi

The Catholic Church does not teach the “replacement theology”
“the Church is the new people of God”

from

DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
 
“the Church is the new people of God”

from

DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
Agreed - I should have been more specific.

The Church teaches, consistent with scripture, that the Gentile believers have been grafted into the promises of Israel (Romans 11) and thus, all believers, Jew and Gentile comprise the " Israel of God". In that respect, the “Church” (body of believers) and Israel, become synonymous in a spiritual sense and therefore all believers are a chosen people of God. However, the Church does not teach that the ethnic Israel (natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) has ceased to have a calling and role in the plan of God. That is what is referred to in the Catechism when it says that the covenant and promises to Israel are irrevocable.

I think the spectrum of “beliefs” regarding Israel includes 4 major perspectives with variations between.
  1. Replacement Theology (the Church has replaced Israel in all respects with respect to God’s promises and covenants and there remains no longer any covenant or special role for ethnic Israel in God’s salvation plan). This is not the teaching of the Church.
  2. The Church (believers) have been grafted into the promises of Israel creating one “spiritual” people or Israel of God, but God continues to have a plan for ethnic Israel (a great mystery) whose calling remains irrevocable. This is, I believe, the Catholic Church position. I personally believe this is highly suggestive that God intends to use the mass conversion of unbelieving Israel to faith in the Messiah in the end times (after the full allotment of Gentile’s comes in) to His great glory (then they will mourn for the one whom they have pierced (Zechariah).
  3. Dispensationalist View - The church and Israel are separate in all respects - God still having covenants (eg., land and other covenants) to fulfill to ethnic Israel and that while all are saved in Christ, there will be different roles for Israel (who come to faith in Christ) and the Gentile church in the new creation. This view is often coupled wht a pre-tribulation rapture perspective holding that the Church will be spared the tribulation in the end times and Israel will suffer through it.
  4. Dual Covenant Theology - those who hold that Israel (Judaism) holds a separate path to salvation without faith in Christ.
Blessings,

Brian
 
“the Church is the new people of God”

from

DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
Yes we are indeed the new people of God. The Church also remembers our Jewish heritage. It is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Jewish people being the “root” where we are grafted in and our “elder brother” in faith.
God chooses Abraham
59 In order to gather together scattered humanity God calls Abram from his country, his kindred and his father’s house,16 and makes him Abraham, that is, “the father of a multitude of nations”. "In you all the nations of the earth shall be blessed."17
60 The people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church.18 **They would be the root on to which the Gentiles would be grafted, once they came to believe.**19
61 The patriarchs, prophets and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions.
God forms his people Israel
62 After the patriarchs, God formed Israel as his people by freeing them from slavery in Egypt. He established with them the covenant of Mount Sinai and, through Moses, gave them his law so that they would recognize him and serve him as the one living and true God, the provident Father and just judge, and so that they would look for the promised Savior.20
63 Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the LORD”, and “the first to hear the word of God”,21 the people of “elder brethren” in the faith of Abraham.
64 Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts.22 The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation which will include all the nations.23 Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary.24
 
  1. The Church (believers) have been grafted into the promises of Israel creating one “spiritual” people or Israel of God, but God continues to have a plan for ethnic Israel (a great mystery) whose calling remains irrevocable. This is, I believe, the Catholic Church position. I personally believe this is highly suggestive that God intends to use the mass conversion of unbelieving Israel to faith in the Messiah in the end times (after the full allotment of Gentile’s comes in) to His great glory (then they will mourn for the one whom they have pierced (Zechariah).
Yes here it is:
The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.568 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."569 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"570 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”,571 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.572
Cathechism of the Catholic Church 674
 
Yes we are indeed the new people of God. The Church also remembers our Jewish heritage. It is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Jewish people being the “root” where we are grafted in and our “elder brother” in faith.
John 4:20, Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
A clue may be had here :

and here : Matt. 28 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ::twocents:

Peace
🙂
 
Yes we are indeed the new people of God.
The Church also remembers our Jewish heritage. It is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Jewish people being the "root"
unbelieving Jews have been and are now part of the root system?

Romans 11:
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off…23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

question: if ‘the Jewish people’, the whole community, are the root, then what got ‘cast away’ in verse 15 and what are the natural branches which only by becoming believers in Christ (Jesus is the door) are grafted into the tree? 🤷

I mean, how can an unbelieving Jewish person be part of the root and at the same time be a branch that’s been cast/broken off …that’s kind of what I’m getting at.
 
Hi - there are two distinct issues:
  1. Do jews remain God’s chosen people and is their calling “irrevocable” (as taught in the Catechism) or has Israel been “replaced” by the Church? On this issue, I believe the monsignor’s statements were incorrect and iconisistent Church teaching. There remains a covenant between Israel as a collective and God which remains unfulfilled (and will one day be fulfilled) - they shall return to God through the Messiah (this is forshadowed in Romans 11) and they continue to show people the way to the messiah through the Hebrew scriptures (even if ironically not finding Him themselves “yet”).
  2. Do jews have some right to the land of Israel -“now” in the state of Israel. This is a tougher question. I do believe the land promises to Abraham and his descendants continues as a to be fulfilled covenant. Ezekiel prophecizes their return - but in studying that out one will see that first they will return physically, and only later “spiritually”.
I don’t believe occupation of land exempts Israel from accountability - not at all - as to whether this is the “end time” when Israel’s physical residence of the land will be followed by spiritual residence - I don’t know - although it is amazing that after almost 2,000 years of exile, suddenly the land is occupied again as a nation “born in a day” as prophesized in Isaiah.

While the “Israel of God” is, in a spiritual sense, all believers (Jews and Gentile), there remains a special/different covenant relationship between natural Israel and God. Its not better or worse in terms of salvation - that for all will come through faith in Christ and there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile believers in Christ in terms of salvation.

Blessings,

Brian
shalom.
 
Does’nt it even occur to anyone that there is a huge ethical problem with the very existence of the modern state of Israel, which is infact not based on judaism as a religion but on zionism as an ideology (which the Catholic Church OFFICIALLY CONDEMNS)! … and that was founded on the systematic, often violent displacement of both muslim and CHRISTIAN palistinians… people who in all respects have an equal, possibly even greater claim of being the decendants of the jews of ancient israel !!! … as for the position of the Catholic Church, it did not officially recognise the state of Israel until 1993 (at this point peace between israel and the palistinians looked promising), this is not due to the idea though, that the vatican viewed the modern secular zionist state as a fullfillment of God’s promise to the Jews. The land covenant with the jews was abolished allong with circumcision, dietary regulations and every other mosaic law (appart from those that rest on a moral foundation such as the ten commandents for instance) on the cross! What people on this form are advocating is zionism, an ideology condemned by the church.

may we all pray for peace in the middle east, and for both the israelis and the palistinians to live in peace, amen 🙂

God bless!!!
 
Does’nt it even occur to anyone that there is a huge ethical problem with the very existence of the modern state of Israel, which is infact not based on judaism as a religion but on zionism as an ideology (which the Catholic Church OFFICIALLY CONDEMNS)! … and that was founded on the systematic, often violent displacement of both muslim and CHRISTIAN palistinians… people who in all respects have an equal, possibly even greater claim of being the decendants of the jews of ancient israel !!! … as for the position of the Catholic Church, it did not officially recognise the state of Israel until 1993 (at this point peace between israel and the palistinians looked promising), this is not due to the idea though, that the vatican viewed the modern secular zionist state as a fullfillment of God’s promise to the Jews. The land covenant with the jews was abolished allong with circumcision, dietary regulations and every other mosaic law (appart from those that rest on a moral foundation such as the ten commandents for instance) on the cross! What people on this form are advocating is zionism, an ideology condemned by the church.

may we all pray for peace in the middle east, and for both the israelis and the palistinians to live in peace, amen 🙂

God bless!!!
Much of what you have to say is true, except God’s land covenant with Israel has not been abrogated. Not all Jewish residents in Israel are Zionists. Archbishop Elias Chacour’s book, **Blood Brothers **is a must read for anyone who wants a first hand account of this issue.

Peace.
 
  1. The Church (believers) have been grafted into the promises of Israel creating one “spiritual” people or Israel of God, but God continues to have a plan for ethnic Israel (a great mystery) whose calling remains irrevocable. This is, I believe, the Catholic Church position. I personally believe this is highly suggestive that God intends to use the mass conversion of unbelieving Israel to faith in the Messiah in the end times (after the full allotment of Gentile’s comes in) to His great glory (then they will mourn for the one whom they have pierced (Zechariah).
Brian, This I agree with. Having said that, how can we reconcile this belief with the conclusion of this synod? I am a little ignorant on a few points that maybe someone cam help me with.
  1. What exactly is the definition of a synod?
  2. Who calls for a synod to be held?
  3. Who decides who is going to be a part of any specific synod?
  4. What power does a synod’s conclusions hold? Are they speaking for the Vatican, or is it more of a study group to offer suggestions to the Holy Father, who can do with those suggestions what he likes? I know in the Protestant article I read, they considered the conclusions a stand held by the Vatican.
Thanks!! Jim
 
I think you hit on something inadvertently. There is a difference, and I believe a significant difference, between “any individuals” who are oppressed, and “the palestinian community.” This blurring between the two is exactly the lie foisted on the world by the authors of modern terrorism. The “Palestinians,” and I deliberately put that in quotes, are oppressed by the political ideology of Arab and other Moslem governments, by being made pawns, by being denied the right to settle in Arab lands, by being forced to stay in camps and held up as the world’s oldest “displaced” community. Yasser Arafat in his day traveled freely between Arab countries and enjoyed the patronage of radical Moslem clerics everywhere, because he kept the “Palestinian” cause in the limelight. This ideology keeps little children in front of Israeli soldiers, throwing rocks, but there are adults with guns behind them. There is no- I mean zero- preaching of peace with Israel, it is all about resistance and a reverse martyrdom where suicide is glorified if you take the enemy with you. The whole ideology is abhorrent and repellent to a Christian way of thinking no matter what church or denomination, but we buy into the narrative that “why would they do it if they weren’t pushed to it?” It’s an abomination, it’s Moloch-worship. And I don’t blame the people who call themselves “Palestinians” who are brought up to believe this, but I do, and I believe we must, blame the people who are relentlessly pushing the ideology because they want Israel to be destroyed because Jewish Israel is an insult to the honor of Islam.

As a convert to Catholicism and Jewish by birth I am aware that this may seem to be my own personal axe to grind, but I sincerely hope the Church will be able to articulate that while we want peace in the Middle East, it can’t be peace that denies truth or sacrifices the Jews. Jesus is the King of the Jews. A king isn’t king of a religion (Church of England notwithstanding) but king of a people. The rabbis persist in error but the Jewish people are God’s to do with as He wills.
Amen, and may God bless you. This cradle Catholic who has been to many countries in the region wholheartedly agrees.

As a preterist, my support of modern Israel isn’t relgious in nature, its the historical homeland of ethnic Jews, plain and simple, and the last self-determining people to live there.
 
I can not agree with the word “occupy.” The Jewish people live in Israel.
Now they do.

But they occupy the Palestinian territories, have been oppressive, have stolen the lands of the native residents and are behaving basically as a rogue state.

Internationally they are a huge embarassment to the USA, which has been a longstanding ally. The state of Israel has a similar embarassing client-patron relationship with the USA that North Korea has with China.

Both are behaving badly, and their big allies just wish they would stop it but can do nothing.
 
Does’nt it even occur to anyone that there is a huge ethical problem with the very existence of the modern state of Israel, which is infact not based on judaism as a religion but on zionism as an ideology …
This is true.

Anyway, Christianity started out as Judaism and continues as the Judaism of God. Christianity has the promise.
 
Does’nt it even occur to anyone that there is a huge ethical problem with the very existence of the modern state of Israel, which is infact not based on judaism as a religion but on zionism as an ideology (which the Catholic Church OFFICIALLY CONDEMNS)! … and that was founded on the systematic, often violent displacement of both muslim and CHRISTIAN palistinians… people who in all respects have an equal, possibly even greater claim of being the decendants of the jews of ancient israel !!! …
Israel was formed by mandate of the United Nations - not by Zionism and is a democracy surrounded by dictatorships. I think Israel’s right to exist as a nation is clear. That does not give it free reign in dealing with its neighbors. I’m not sure on what basis you suggest that mulims and Christian palistintians have a “greater claim of being descendants of jews” of Israel. That statement has no historical basis. Jews are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. We have absolutely no idea who the descendants of the remaining 10 tribes are.
. as for the position of the Catholic Church, it did not officially recognise the state of Israel until 1993 (at this point peace between israel and the palistinians looked promising), this is not due to the idea though, that the vatican viewed the modern secular zionist state as a fullfillment of God’s promise to the Jews. The land covenant with the jews was abolished allong with circumcision, dietary regulations and every other mosaic law (appart from those that rest on a moral foundation such as the ten commandents for instance) on the cross! What people on this form are advocating is zionism, an ideology condemned by the church.
You are not citing a formal position of the Church - I don’t believe the Church has ever taken a formal or authoritative position on the “land covenants” - which is the basis of discussion earlier in this thread.
may we all pray for peace in the middle east, and for both the israelis and the palistinians to live in peace, amen 🙂
On this we fully agree.

Blessings,

Brian

God bless!!!
 
unbelieving Jews have been and are now part of the root system?

Romans 11:
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off…23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

question: if ‘the Jewish people’, the whole community, are the root, then what got ‘cast away’ in verse 15 and what are the natural branches which only by becoming believers in Christ (Jesus is the door) are grafted into the tree? 🤷

I mean, how can an unbelieving Jewish person be part of the root and at the same time be a branch that’s been cast/broken off …that’s kind of what I’m getting at.
The botanical concept is quite confusing. But we can clarify things in this way. The Jewish people were the “root” cause of how we came to know about and worship God. It is through them that we came to know the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. Christianity has its faith “rooted” on Jewish beliefs. Root being a system of worship, worshiping the one true God. If the Gentiles were grafted into a system of worship, we were grafted in a system of adoring the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Thus we were grafted into their belief system.

The Jewish people were also the branches. The Lord said this in his ministry to the Jewish people:
I am the true vine, my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear fruit. … I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from him you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the blades are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15: 1-6
Whoever was cast off/broken away, our Lord explained it very well.
 
Does’nt it even occur to anyone that there is a huge ethical problem with the very existence of the modern state of Israel, which is infact not based on judaism as a religion but on zionism as an ideology (which the Catholic Church OFFICIALLY CONDEMNS)! …
Is it wrong to be nationalistic and seek sovereignty when everyone hates you and wants you out of their lands?
and that was founded on the systematic, often violent displacement of both muslim and CHRISTIAN palistinians…
Modern Israel was formed by UN resolution and did not involve expelling anyone but rather peaceful coexistence, until 5 Arab nations initiated a war of annihilation against the new Jewish state
people who in all respects have an equal, possibly even greater claim of being the decendants of the jews of ancient israel !!! …
The fact that ethnic Jews were living in the Holy Land for millennia makes them more of prime candidate to Eretz Israel than anyone in the region.
What people on this form are advocating is zionism, an ideology condemned by the church.
Anti-zionism equals to Anti Israel
Anti Israel equals to Anti semetism
Anti semetism equals to Superssessionism.
may we all pray for peace in the middle east, and for both the israelis and the palistinians to live in peace, amen :)God bless!!!
I pray for the same thing, I think we all do. But importantly I pray for the arabs to stand up, stand against those who use them as human shields and human bombs against Israel. Shalom
 
I think the return of the Jews to Israel is another case. There are Protestants who claim that certain theologians concluded in the 19th century that the Jews had to return to the land.
Latter-day Saints believe in the literal gathering of Israel. This was taught in the early days by the missionaries. This experience in 1838 was recorded by my great-great grandfather in his journal about his first experience with the Mormon missionaries:

“I saw two Mormon Elders coming along the road both afoot with their valises in their hands. This reminded me of the way the Savior sent out his disciples when he was on the earth preaching the gospel.
I went to hear them more through curiosity than anything else, not knowing they were a religious people. At the opening services they sang the hymn “Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise, Her Light Begins to Shine.” After which they prayed. This rather surprised me as I supposed them to be the worst of criminals.
In their remarks they spoke of the signs that were to make their appearance previous to the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds of Heaven. And also of the gathering of the Jews and the rebuilding of the City of Jerusalem showing by the Prophets this had to be done before the Savior would come with all his holy angels.”
 
Modern Israel was formed by UN resolution and did not involve expelling anyone but rather peaceful coexistence, until 5 Arab nations initiated a war of annihilation against the new Jewish state
These are not religious questions but we may as well air it out.

To a great extent (although not entirely), modern Israel was populated by illegal immigration of Jews (I understand how and why it happened, considering the holocaust, but we have to take this into account to be fair), and there was terrorism involved. The bombing of the King David hotel being the most notable, killing 91.

The UN resolution was an attempt to achieve peace in a difficult situation by separating the two parties - separate but equal. There is some question whether the UN had the right to establish the State of Israel in the first place. However, I think it was a sincere attempt.

The thing is, it may have not been an ethically balanced decision on the part of the world community, and we are reaping the results of that now.
The fact that ethnic Jews were living in the Holy Land for millennia makes them more of prime candidate to Eretz Israel than anyone in the region.
Actually, the Palestinians (mostly Christian and Muslim, there were still also Palestinian Jews in the 20th century) are descendants of the original Jews with continual residence on top of that.

The population went from being largely Jewish with some Gentiles to largely Christian through conversion, and finally but sadly largely Muslim, but they are essentially the same people, and very likely have a higher percentage of Hebrew/Jewish DNA than the Jews of Europe and elsewhere, which often accepted converts and mixed extensivley with native populations in the places they found themselves.

It is an historical fact that even in Jesus Christ’s day two thousand years ago, the majority of the world’s Jews were living outside of Palestine, and they often accepted converts. Those returning to Israel in the twentieth century simply do not have any more right to the land than those of their very own cousins who occupied it continually all these centuries.

And if we must resort to the religious argument, the Christian community is still the heir of the Promise. Such an argument therefore cannot reasonably be used by modern Jews (of mostly European origin and ancestry) to justify dispossessing the native inhabitants and engaging in the ethnic cleansing practices in the occupied territories even today.
 
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