Middle East Synod and Israel

[ZAKI]

International law has recognized Jewish rights to sovereignty over the Land of Israel and to settlement throughout the land. In April 1920, at the San Remo Conference (part of the post-World War I peace negotiations), the Principal Allied Powers, acting on behalf of the international community, recognized all the land between the Jordan River and the sea, including Jerusalem, as part of the Jewish National Home, based on the Jewish people’s historic rights.

So how can this be illegal immigrations when it was a recognized law, 28 years before 1948?

I can agree with you on to some extent but are we supposed to call them Palestinians?

So how long should we advocate Lands for Peace? Until their is no more Lands to give?
The Palestinian Liberation Organization Covenant is an interesting read.

Your first point is just so SO incredibly stupid.

so if international law allowed for all christians to be banished from lebanon then it would be perfectly fine? not everything that is internationally recognised and accepted is correct…jeez, how foolish.

personally i know that the land belongs to the palestinians, and the jews who weren’t living there previously to 1948 need to pack up and leave or at the very least stop building more and settlements and stop harassing the muslims and christians living in west bank/gaza strip.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

i dont believe the jews are God’s chosen people bcz God is not rascist, he doesn’t choose a certain people and leave out the rest to be “unchosen” and inferior

It is not that God is racist if he chooses people to do His Divine work. If God has chosen you with a special calling it does not follow that everyone is inferior to you “bcz” God left out everyone else of their calling.

Since God orders and ordains His salvation plan is not done haphazardly. Why would God not have a chosen people and have Jesus and Mary born in some pagan tribe, why would they have any reason to believe in them if they didn’t believe in the fall of mankind and redemption? God chose the ancient Hebrews to begin salvation history, and it was done for the coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[ZAKI]

It is not that God is racist if he chooses people to do His Divine work. If God has chosen you with a special calling it does not follow that everyone is inferior to you “bcz” God left out everyone else of their calling.

Since God orders and ordains His salvation plan is not done haphazardly. Why would God not have a chosen people and have Jesus and Mary born in some pagan tribe, why would they have any reason to believe in them if they didn’t believe in the fall of mankind and redemption? God chose the ancient Hebrews to begin salvation history, and it was done for the coming of Jesus Christ.

Sorry I just don’t believe God would choose a certain race to do all his divine work, I believe that all of us are equal before God and the only thing that separates us is how much we love/worship God

 

[Ghosty]

The “native people” in the area are the Jews. Or, rather, the Jews are the closest thing we’re going to get to “the native people”. The “palestinians” are Arabs, in language as well as culture, and the Arabs didn’t arrive until the wave of colonization following the conquest in the 7th century.

The Jews have been living there since 1000 BC, at the latest. The Arabs came more than 1600 years later. Who’s “the native people” here?

The Palestinians are Jewish by blood descent, and genetic studies have proven this time and again. They speak Arabic, but then so did the Jewish (religion) people in the region prior to the coming of the Zionists. Here’s an article with references to the relevant genetic studies (also available through wikipedia).

Palestinian genetics don’t match Arabs, but do match that of both Sephardic and Azkenazic Jews. There was some intermarriage with Arab conquerers, but that is no different than Jewish intermarriage with Europeans which shows up in Azkenazic genetic profiles. It’s pretty solidly established by now that the Palestinians are indeed “Jewish” by blood, if not religion.

Peace and God bless!

 

[LutheranDK]

The Palestinians are Jewish by blood descent, and genetic studies have proven this time and again. They speak Arabic, but then so did the Jewish (religion) people in the region prior to the coming of the Zionists. Here’s an article with references to the relevant genetic studies (also available through wikipedia).

Palestinian genetics don’t match Arabs, but do match that of both Sephardic and Azkenazic Jews. There was some intermarriage with Arab conquerers, but that is no different than Jewish intermarriage with Europeans which shows up in Azkenazic genetic profiles. It’s pretty solidly established by now that the Palestinians are indeed “Jewish” by blood, if not religion.

Peace and God bless!

Please prove this claim, instead of just posting it. “Weasel-claims” are very difficult indeed to take seriously.
Looking forward to seeing your proof - haven’t ever been on a Hamas-site before…

 

[Lisel]

The Palestinians are Jewish by blood descent, and genetic studies have proven this time and again. They speak Arabic, but then so did the Jewish (religion) people in the region prior to the coming of the Zionists. Here’s an article with references to the relevant genetic studies (also available through wikipedia).

Palestinian genetics don’t match Arabs, but do match that of both Sephardic and Azkenazic Jews. There was some intermarriage with Arab conquerers, but that is no different than Jewish intermarriage with Europeans which shows up in Azkenazic genetic profiles. It’s pretty solidly established by now that the Palestinians are indeed “Jewish” by blood, if not religion.

Peace and God bless!

You can’t be Jewish by blood. What does that mean? Jews are not a “race.” What DNA has shown is that they share similar genetic characteristics with other mediterranean people.

 

[Sam_777]

Sorry I just don’t believe God would choose a certain race to do all his divine work, I believe that all of us are equal before God and the only thing that separates us is how much we love/worship God

ZAKI,

Indeed they were as **John **mentioned to you and that is even written in (Quran 2:47):
YUSUFALI: Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).
PICKTHAL: O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.
SHAKIR: O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

يا بني إسرائيل اذكروا نعمتي التي أنعمت عليكم وأني فضلتكم على العالمين
​

 

[jerome_ky]

The Palestinians are Jewish by blood descent, and genetic studies have proven this time and again. They speak Arabic, but then so did the Jewish (religion) people in the region prior to the coming of the Zionists. Here’s an article with references to the relevant genetic studies (also available through wikipedia).

Palestinian genetics don’t match Arabs, but do match that of both Sephardic and Azkenazic Jews. There was some intermarriage with Arab conquerers, but that is no different than Jewish intermarriage with Europeans which shows up in Azkenazic genetic profiles. It’s pretty solidly established by now that the Palestinians are indeed “Jewish” by blood, if not religion.

Peace and God bless!

I could not gain access to the website mentioned. I looked up Global Politician on Wikipedia. It is described as an entirely politically-based online magazine, so I’m not sure why you would seriously cite it as a source on genetics.

Two red flags in your statements.

1. “The Palestinians are Jewish by blood descent, and genetic studies have proven this time and again.”

• Time and again? How many of these studies have there been? I’d like to see one that isn’t printed in an online political magazine.

1. “It’s pretty solidly established by now that the Palestinians are indeed “Jewish” by blood, if not religion.”

• No, it’s not. The only person “establishing” it is you.

One other point. The Jewish religion is the whole point. Not the genetics. Genetics are relevant insofar as there are Jewish groups that have remained isolated enough that genetic studies can be done. But it has nothing to do with Judaism as a religion. I am no longer Jewish, because I accept Christ. If a non-Jew accepts Judaism and is accepted by the appropriate rabbinical authority, they can freely join the “tribe” and
their descendants will be Jews.

Example: Ruth the Moabite becomes an ancestor of King David.

This is why the WHOLE “Zionism = Racism” argument is a crock.

I never want to alienate anyone on here, but before you convince yourself that you know about the Jews and their status with God Almighty Who chose them, make sure you have good solid sources- for instance for a scientific study you should have scientific sources, and not an online political magazine that publishes interviews with Hezbollah officials (if the Wikipedia article is accurate).

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

Agreed - I should have been more specific.

The Church teaches, consistent with scripture, that the Gentile believers have been grafted into the promises of Israel (Romans 11) and thus, all believers, Jew and Gentile comprise the " Israel of God". In that respect, the “Church” (body of believers) and Israel, become synonymous in a spiritual sense and therefore all believers are a chosen people of God. However, the Church does not teach that the ethnic Israel (natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) has ceased to have a calling and role in the plan of God. That is what is referred to in the Catechism when it says that the covenant and promises to Israel are irrevocable.

I think the spectrum of “beliefs” regarding Israel includes 4 major perspectives with variations between.

1. Replacement Theology (the Church has replaced Israel in all respects with respect to God’s promises and covenants and there remains no longer any covenant or special role for ethnic Israel in God’s salvation plan). This is not the teaching of the Church.
2. The Church (believers) have been grafted into the promises of Israel creating one “spiritual” people or Israel of God, but God continues to have a plan for ethnic Israel (a great mystery) whose calling remains irrevocable. This is, I believe, the Catholic Church position. I personally believe this is highly suggestive that God intends to use the mass conversion of unbelieving Israel to faith in the Messiah in the end times (after the full allotment of Gentile’s comes in) to His great glory (then they will mourn for the one whom they have pierced (Zechariah).
3. Dispensationalist View - The church and Israel are separate in all respects - God still having covenants (eg., land and other covenants) to fulfill to ethnic Israel and that while all are saved in Christ, there will be different roles for Israel (who come to faith in Christ) and the Gentile church in the new creation. This view is often coupled wht a pre-tribulation rapture perspective holding that the Church will be spared the tribulation in the end times and Israel will suffer through it.
4. Dual Covenant Theology - those who hold that Israel (Judaism) holds a separate path to salvation without faith in Christ.

Blessings,

Brian

Question: How many ethnic Jews adotped Christianity when Jesus lived and after Jesus Died? Perhaps these are god’s chosen people? Not all ethnic jews remain faithful to Judaism, they are not as I have seen in this thread a unified, undivided, pure ethnic group 100% observant of the same religion…

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

Israel was formed by mandate of the United Nations - not by Zionism and is a democracy surrounded by dictatorships. I think Israel’s right to exist as a nation is clear. That does not give it free reign in dealing with its neighbors. I’m not sure on what basis you suggest that mulims and Christian palistintians have a “greater claim of being descendants of jews” of Israel. That statement has no historical basis. Jews are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. We have absolutely no idea who the descendants of the remaining 10 tribes are.

Why do we have no idea who the descendants are? That sounds odd.

Secondly, the United Nations established Israel at the behest of the Zionists. Israel would not exist without Zionism. I’m not sure why you would argue that.

Two, it’s a fallacy claim Israel is a democracy because democracy in modernity correctly connotes secularism. Israel mandates that it be Jewish. This would make it more of a theocracy, especially since Judaism is the state sponsored religion.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

I am no expert by any means. Palestine is a name that originated from the ancient word, Philistine, who were the natives of the southern coast of the region west of Judea. Later, it became quasi-incorporated into the kingdom of Judah under King David and King Solomon. Remember David’s battle against the Philistine giant Goliath? (That was only the beginning of their on-going battle).

When the Jewish nationalist Bar Kochba tried to overthrow the Roman occupation in 132 AD he was eventually defeated in 135 AD. Most of the Jewish population were expelled and became a diaspora. For which the traditional saying during Passover since then, became something like “next year in Jerusalem”.

In 135 AD, Judea was renamed Syria Palestina by the Roman Emperor Hadrian in order to dissociate the name of Judea from the land, this name continues to this day. Jewish Christians who did not participate in the rebellion returned, or remained in the land.
(Hegesippus relates a story of the relatives of Jesus living in the land as Jewish Christian farmers) Non-Jewish Christians from the region also remained, as did non-Christians of the Roman Empire.

Religious Jewish people also settled sporadically, and in small numbers over the centuries. When Islam arose, Muslim Arabs and converts became part of the population of Palestine, as did the Crusaders later on. Regardless, Palestine was never heavily populated, but always has had a mixture of the descendants of Abraham over the centuries. Whether, they be monotheistic Jews, Christian Jews, or Muslim Arabs. (Muslims of the southern coastal region known as Gaza prefer the name Filistine, possibly for geo-political historical reasons).

Secular Zionism has proven to be a wedge that has driven these monotheistic peoples apart, and for that reason I am no longer sure of what I once believed regarding the formation of the State of Israel. (I was a Christian Zionist of sorts and have lived in Israel).

Let us pray for peace and justice for all the monotheistic peoples of the land, and also for those who do not know their Creator.

This is a good point. The people lived together in peace, as they did in Lebanon as well.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

The “native people” in the area are the Jews. Or, rather, the Jews are the closest thing we’re going to get to “the native people”. The “palestinians” are Arabs, in language as well as culture, and the Arabs didn’t arrive until the wave of colonization following the conquest in the 7th century.

The Jews have been living there since 1000 BC, at the latest. The Arabs came more than 1600 years later. Who’s “the native people” here?

Why do you say that the Jews are the closest thing we will get to the native people? Many of them have lived outside of Israel for hundreds of years, no longer practice religion, often are atheist or agnostic and are of mixed genetics. Many don’t even want to go there or are leaving!

The Caananites founded Jerusalem.

Developments in Palestine between 1250 and 900 BC have been the focus of debate between those who accept the Old Testament version on the conquest of Canaan by the Israelite tribes, and those who reject it.[61] Niels Peter Lemche, of the Copenhagen School of Biblical Studies, submits that the biblical picture of ancient Israel “is contrary to any image of ancient Palestinian society that can be established on the basis of ancient sources from Palestine or referring to Palestine and that there is no way this image in the Bible can be reconciled with the historical past of the region.”[60]

Sites and artifacts, including the Large Stone Structure, Mount Ebal, the Menertaph, and Mesha stelae, among others, are subject to widely varying historical interpretations: the “conservative camp” reconstructs the history of Israel according to the biblical text and views archaeological evidence in that context, whilst scholars in the minimalist or deconstructionist school hold that there is no archaeological evidence supporting the idea of a United Monarchy (or Israelite nation) and the biblical account is a religious mythology created by Judean scribes in the Persian and Hellenistic periods; a third camp of centrist scholars acknowledges the value of some isolated elements of the Pentateuch and of Deuteronomonistic accounts as potentially valid history of monarchic times that can be in accord with the archaeological evidence, but argue that nevertheless the biblical narrative should be understood as highly ideological and adapted to the needs of the community at the time of its compilation.[62][63][64][65][66][67] wiki

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

The Palestinians are Jewish by blood descent, and genetic studies have proven this time and again. They speak Arabic, but then so did the Jewish (religion) people in the region prior to the coming of the Zionists. Here’s an article with references to the relevant genetic studies (also available through wikipedia).

Palestinian genetics don’t match Arabs, but do match that of both Sephardic and Azkenazic Jews. There was some intermarriage with Arab conquerers, but that is no different than Jewish intermarriage with Europeans which shows up in Azkenazic genetic profiles. It’s pretty solidly established by now that the Palestinians are indeed “Jewish” by blood, if not religion.

Peace and God bless!

So they are genetically part “Jewish”, but not necessarily Jewish culturally or religiously or lignuistically.

See the problem here is that people assume that a Jew is 100% Jew, believes in Judaism and is culturally Jewish. This is not the case at all. People are basically arguing that X is MORE Jewish than Z and therefore is MORE privileged.

 

[Hesychios]

See the problem here is that people assume that a Jew is 100% Jew, believes in Judaism and is culturally Jewish. This is not the case at all. People are basically arguing that X is MORE Jewish than Z and therefore is MORE privileged.

The two groups are both partly Jewish and neither has a stronger claim to the land. Except however one group has continually occupied it while the other had migrated away.

I do not see how the one group can come in and chase the other group out of their own homeland they have struggled to keep for all of these many centuries.

The new Jewish state does have a problem. It has been very clear for a long time that unless they do something dramatic the Muslims and Christians (who speak Arabic mostly) will exceed the Jews in population within the state of Israel at some point in the future, and the ‘Jewish republic’ will no longer have a majority Jewish population. The demographics have been pointing to that for a long time, and especially after the Six Day War this was worrisome to those Israelis who desired to annex the west bank.

This is probably why the state of Israel has been following abusive policies calculated to make the Arab speaking residents (Christians and Muslims alike) want to emigrate.

They would do such things as refuse to give repair permits to non-Jews to fix the plumbing or the roofs of their houses. When the residents would make the needed repairs the city would send a bulldozer in to knock down the house. This kind of thing was making news years before the frustration boiled over into the intifada. This has been one very desperate community.

In the last few years there was also a proposal to strip the citizenship from Israeli citizens of Muslim/Christian Arab community ancestry living in the Galilee area. It is a shocking thought for a republic to strip it’s own people of citizenship because of their ethnicity. Hopefully the motion did not pass, but that is an illustration of the way some politicians have been talking there.

This is ethnic cleansing.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

The two groups are both partly Jewish and neither has a stronger claim to the land. Except however one group has continually occupied it while the other had migrated away.

I do not see how the one group can come in and chase the other group out of their own homeland they have struggled to keep for all of these many centuries.

The new Jewish state does have a problem. It has been very clear for a long time that unless they do something dramatic the Muslims and Christians (who speak Arabic mostly) will exceed the Jews in population within the state of Israel at some point in the future, and the ‘Jewish republic’ will no longer have a majority Jewish population. The demographics have been pointing to that for a long time, and especially after the Six Day War this was worrisome to those Israelis who desired to annex the west bank.

This is probably why the state of Israel has been following abusive policies calculated to make the Arab speaking residents (Christians and Muslims alike) want to emigrate.

They would do such things as refuse to give repair permits to non-Jews to fix the plumbing or the roofs of their houses. When the residents would make the needed repairs the city would send a bulldozer in to knock down the house. This kind of thing was making news years before the frustration boiled over into the intifada. This has been one very desperate community.

In the last few years there was also a proposal to strip the citizenship from Israeli citizens of Muslim/Christian Arab community ancestry living in the Galilee area. It is a shocking thought for a republic to strip it’s own people of citizenship because of their ethnicity. Hopefully the motion did not pass, but that is an illustration of the way some politicians have been talking there.

This is ethnic cleansing.

**

• see it the same way, but the majority of American media does not portray it as it should. I am well aware that they find reasons to bulldoze anything and everything with certain zoning and permitting laws and then don’t provide permission or allow materials. It is a charade. I know its a charade.

The idea that the Israeli’s are acting like their worst historical persecutors is becoming more real and more people are catching on to this.

Israelis are not saints. They don’t act like god chosen people- many are agnostic. Christians are suffering for it throughout the middle east and especially Lebanon.

Their president was convicted of rape.

Olmert is in a corruption trial.

As to the stripping of citizenship and the intentional segregation, marginalization, apartheid, disinformation campaigns- this is not how a modern democracy works. This is how a socialist totalitarian state works and truth be told many israelis emigrated from the former soviet union, so it is no wonder.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

** It is a shocking thought for a republic to strip it’s own people of citizenship because of their ethnicity. Hopefully the motion did not pass, but that is an illustration of the way some politicians have been talking there.

This is ethnic cleansing.

Many of the politicians are radical.

 

[chosen_people]

The two groups are both partly Jewish and neither has a stronger claim to the land. Except however one group has continually occupied it while the other had migrated away.

I do not see how the one group can come in and chase the other group out of their own homeland they have struggled to keep for all of these many centuries.

The new Jewish state does have a problem. It has been very clear for a long time that unless they do something dramatic the Muslims and Christians (who speak Arabic mostly) will exceed the Jews in population within the state of Israel at some point in the future, and the ‘Jewish republic’ will no longer have a majority Jewish population. The demographics have been pointing to that for a long time, and especially after the Six Day War this was worrisome to those Israelis who desired to annex the west bank.

This is probably why the state of Israel has been following abusive policies calculated to make the Arab speaking residents (Christians and Muslims alike) want to emigrate.

They would do such things as refuse to give repair permits to non-Jews to fix the plumbing or the roofs of their houses. When the residents would make the needed repairs the city would send a bulldozer in to knock down the house. This kind of thing was making news years before the frustration boiled over into the intifada. This has been one very desperate community.

In the last few years there was also a proposal to strip the citizenship from Israeli citizens of Muslim/Christian Arab community ancestry living in the Galilee area. It is a shocking thought for a republic to strip it’s own people of citizenship because of their ethnicity. Hopefully the motion did not pass, but that is an illustration of the way some politicians have been talking there.

This is ethnic cleansing.

I would love to know the website where you read of the non existent “proposal” to strip Israeli citizens of their citizenship based on ethnicity. First, no speaker of the Knesset would put forward the law to the Knesset, secondly such a law would be considered as “racist” and invalid, both according to Israeli criminal law and Israeli basic (read constitutional) laws. Laws of this type are only found among our neighbors - for instance the recent declaration of the Palestinian leader that no Jews (later changed to no Israelis) would be allowed to live in a Palestinian state or the Jordan nationality law which stated that anyone except Jews living in Jordanian territory would be granted Jordanian citizenship. What you may be referring to is a proposal by a certain political party to solve the territorial dispute by land exchanges between the Jewish state of Israel and a future additional Arab state, in a way which would create more homogeneous Jewish/Arab entities. The problem is that Israeli Arabs whom also identify themselves as Palestinian Arabs, have absolutely no desire to give up their democratic freedoms to live life in an Arab Palestinian state, whose repression against its people, whether Christians or women or homosexuals or merely political rivals, is apparent for any objective observer to see.

 

[Ghosty]

jerome_ky: I don’t know why you weren’t able to reach the article, but I clearly stated that it gave the references to the scientific studies. If you want to read an actual scientific study of Y-chromosome haplotypes in all of its technical glory, do it here. There are more studies if you care to find them, but this one should suffice.

As to your other point, if the Jewish religion was the whole point then you would expect the original Zionists to have been religiously Jewish, which they weren’t for the most part. You would expect modern Israel to be Jewish religiously, which it isn’t for the most part. The Jewish religion is NOT the basis of the nation of Israel, and never was. It has always been about blood descent.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

jerome_ky: I don’t know why you weren’t able to reach the article, but I clearly stated that it gave the references to the scientific studies. If you want to read an actual scientific study of Y-chromosome haplotypes in all of its technical glory, do it here. There are more studies if you care to find them, but this one should suffice.

As to your other point, if the Jewish religion was the whole point then you would expect the original Zionists to have been religiously Jewish, which they weren’t for the most part. You would expect modern Israel to be Jewish religiously, which it isn’t for the most part. The Jewish religion is NOT the basis of the nation of Israel, and never was. It has always been about blood descent.

Peace and God bless!

Tim previously stated in this thread that Zionists had nothing to do with the creation of Israel. I believe he is wrong about that.

If what you say is true, it is certainly curious that RELIGION is infused so much into the debate that it comes to dominate the debate, in that the state of Israel is argued on purely biblical grounds.

But we all know that much of eastern European jewry were atheists, particularly in the old Soviet Union, but also in the former austro hungarian empire.,

 

[crazzeto]

Tim previously stated in this thread that Zionists had nothing to do with the creation of Israel. I believe he is wrong about that.

If what you say is true, it is certainly curious that RELIGION is infused so much into the debate that it comes to dominate the debate, in that the state of Israel is argued on purely biblical grounds.

But we all know that much of eastern European jewry were atheists, particularly in the old Soviet Union, but also in the former austro hungarian empire.,

I really think the attempt at a biblical argument is done more out of convinence than anything else. Israel knows that many Christians in America (particularly evangelicals) will sop up a biblical argument (even though such argument has no merit). Thus it continues to get propetuated, not because it is truely the central issue behind the formation of Israel. But because it works.